E
ecc83
Well-known member
"two great nations separated by a common language" (and an ideology it would seem?) I think what has happened in France is just the beginning of much worse.
Peace.
Dave.
Balanced output to unbalanced Input, to Float pin 3 or short pin 3 to Grd?
Peace.
Dave.
CoolCat
Well-known member
Im realizing a lot of issues and trials has been due to this Line 6 UX8 having Unbalanced Line In with -10dbu design for Line In.....and I was pumping +4dbu and variety of cables, of various wiring.
I suppose the good part is Ive learned some basics and gear things, engineering things, in general about the gear Ive been using for years and didn't know.
Thanks to everyone who posted.
The times when it sounded "good" was probably the output gain was really low and also , possibly the cables weren't laid in the cable mess possibly an antenna for noise or something. I really don't know.
UX8- Unbalanced Line In at -10dbu (pita)
The Aphex 207 has a switch to -10dbu and Unbalanced able...so a good fit for the UX8.
(Art TPS also has a Unbalanced with consumer, lower signal for consumer gear).
Interface with Balanced Line In at +4dbu ....can handle everything.
I have a two channel interface (ZenGo) and it has Balanced Line In and designed for +4dbu.
It can handle any Rack gear I have as all the Rack gear is +4 dbu. Balanced.
I plugged the ISA430 into it and used the TRS 1/4 input, as recommended to not accidentally put 48phantom on the preamp output.
Not a big deal. No more worry's, use a simple XLr to 1/4 TRS cable, easy no guesswork and silent.
This is all for fun, hobby, and audiophile aka "get all the pieces " correctly working together.
Its Friday, time to get the solder gun out and shorten some patch cables!
I suppose the good part is Ive learned some basics and gear things, engineering things, in general about the gear Ive been using for years and didn't know.
Thanks to everyone who posted.
The times when it sounded "good" was probably the output gain was really low and also , possibly the cables weren't laid in the cable mess possibly an antenna for noise or something. I really don't know.
UX8- Unbalanced Line In at -10dbu (pita)
The Aphex 207 has a switch to -10dbu and Unbalanced able...so a good fit for the UX8.
(Art TPS also has a Unbalanced with consumer, lower signal for consumer gear).
Interface with Balanced Line In at +4dbu ....can handle everything.
I have a two channel interface (ZenGo) and it has Balanced Line In and designed for +4dbu.
It can handle any Rack gear I have as all the Rack gear is +4 dbu. Balanced.
I plugged the ISA430 into it and used the TRS 1/4 input, as recommended to not accidentally put 48phantom on the preamp output.
Not a big deal. No more worry's, use a simple XLr to 1/4 TRS cable, easy no guesswork and silent.
This is all for fun, hobby, and audiophile aka "get all the pieces " correctly working together.
Its Friday, time to get the solder gun out and shorten some patch cables!
TalismanRich
Well-known member
My Tascam 16x08 line ins will go balanced or unbalanced. Balanced is +4, unbalanced is -10.
LINE IN 11-16 line inputs (unbalanced)
(LEVEL switch set to “−10dBV")
Connectors: 6.3mm (1/4") standard TS jacks
(Tip: HOT, Sleeve: GND)
Input impedance: 10 kΩ
Nominal input level: −10 dBV (0.3162 Vrms)
Maximum input level: +10 dBV (3.162 Vrms)
LINE IN 11-16 line inputs (balanced)
(LEVEL switch set to “+4dBu")
Connectors: 6.3mm (1/4") standard TRS jacks
(Tip: HOT, Ring: COLD, Sleeve: GND)
Input impedance: 10 kΩ
Nominal input level: +4 dBu (1.228 Vrms)
Maximum input level: +24 dBu (12.282 Vrms)
LINE IN 11-16 line inputs (unbalanced)
(LEVEL switch set to “−10dBV")
Connectors: 6.3mm (1/4") standard TS jacks
(Tip: HOT, Sleeve: GND)
Input impedance: 10 kΩ
Nominal input level: −10 dBV (0.3162 Vrms)
Maximum input level: +10 dBV (3.162 Vrms)
LINE IN 11-16 line inputs (balanced)
(LEVEL switch set to “+4dBu")
Connectors: 6.3mm (1/4") standard TRS jacks
(Tip: HOT, Ring: COLD, Sleeve: GND)
Input impedance: 10 kΩ
Nominal input level: +4 dBu (1.228 Vrms)
Maximum input level: +24 dBu (12.282 Vrms)
CoolCat
Well-known member
I don't really understand why the industry created the two different levels? But knowing the gear specs makes it work consistently and without doubt.
this old discontinued- Line6UX8 was aimed at Guitar Players and the new world of Amp Sims, aka PODs & ala Pod Farm plugins and they tossed in some attempt to compete with Pro Tools and Digidesign? if I read it right. Why they went with -10 for all Line Ins (that are direct line in) seems was for Keyboards etc and obviously not for +4 outboard gear. (why is +4 called Pro and -10 is consumer?)
The other interface is designed for +4 ...small Antelope ZenGo 2 ch, like many others it uses the PreAmp circuit, not a direct line in and auto set gain to 0db in the software for LINE IN mode.
Obviously Ive never paid enough attention to all the specs and especially -10 vs +4 world. There's usually an interesting history to it.
continuing this P420 "modded" with my small set of preamps - now with the +4.
again not much difference to the KSM32 my "neutral standard" here and comparing to the used 87ai (nearing 45 day return about due date..shopping paraylisis set in)
$149 P420
$300 used KSM32
$1500 used 87ai- "good condition"
this old discontinued- Line6UX8 was aimed at Guitar Players and the new world of Amp Sims, aka PODs & ala Pod Farm plugins and they tossed in some attempt to compete with Pro Tools and Digidesign? if I read it right. Why they went with -10 for all Line Ins (that are direct line in) seems was for Keyboards etc and obviously not for +4 outboard gear. (why is +4 called Pro and -10 is consumer?)
The other interface is designed for +4 ...small Antelope ZenGo 2 ch, like many others it uses the PreAmp circuit, not a direct line in and auto set gain to 0db in the software for LINE IN mode.
Obviously Ive never paid enough attention to all the specs and especially -10 vs +4 world. There's usually an interesting history to it.
continuing this P420 "modded" with my small set of preamps - now with the +4.
again not much difference to the KSM32 my "neutral standard" here and comparing to the used 87ai (nearing 45 day return about due date..shopping paraylisis set in)
$149 P420
$300 used KSM32
$1500 used 87ai- "good condition"
Last edited:
Steenamaroo
...
They're just two different standards for two different environments and, shocker, cost is the main factor.
-10 is much lower voltage and almost always unbalanced.
That's cheaper to produce and fine for home-hifi short runs and that kind of thing.
+4 is most often balanced, more expensive to implement and combines noise cancelling with greater signal to noise ratio,
for professional equipment and longer runs.
-10 is much lower voltage and almost always unbalanced.
That's cheaper to produce and fine for home-hifi short runs and that kind of thing.
+4 is most often balanced, more expensive to implement and combines noise cancelling with greater signal to noise ratio,
for professional equipment and longer runs.
E
ecc83
Well-known member
"I don't really understand why the industry created the two different levels?" Oooo! There's more than two CC!
"Operating Level" is decided on several factors but at the root of it all is thermal noise and clipping. Noise has a fixed minimum dependent upon resistance*, temperature and bandwidth. We can pretty much fix the last two at 20C and 20kHz. A signal source with a physical resistance of 100 Ohms, a common value for AIs and mixer, will generate -132dBu, -134dBV. Those figures are of course totally in la-la land as the circuitry driving the 100R will be MUCH noisier than that, the best we can probably do is -100dBu but that shows the baseline noise which we can do nothing about...except, make the signal hotter! If we can have a maximum output of say +20dBu we have a potential dynamic range of 120dB. Only the very top end AIs get to that and only a very few better it and not by much.
Then, "professional" signals often need to go a long way, sometimes a VERY long way! The world is full of electronic crap and so we need to take steps to keep it out. Very effective is balanced line working but that only rejects magnetically induced noise. To keep out electrostatic interference and RFI we need shielding and sensible upper bandwidths. Source resistance should also be as low as possible since this "shorts" interference to ground but one very powerful technique is to make the signal voltage very large relative to the induced crap.
Now, in the "guitar/neg ten" world we rarely want to send a signal more than 5m and usually much less. Good job too because the resistances in such circuits can be around 10k Ohms and that is a noise level of -1115dBV (but again, much worse in reality) Guitar pedals have historically been powered by 9V batteries and that gives us an absolute maximum headroom of about 3V rms or around +10dBV and with care and a fair wind that all seems to work pretty well!
"Consumer" level is actually lower than that, around 100-150mV but that is fine because hi fi separates are rarely far apart and back in the days of vinyl, FM stereo and tape, a dynamic range of 70dB was bloody good! With the coming of CD we in theory needed 90dB'sh but the Loudness Wars scotched that one!
*It is only the actual physical resistances that produces noise. Capacitors and pure inductors are noiseless. Active circuitry generates noise of course but that is an altogether more complex problem.
Dave
"Operating Level" is decided on several factors but at the root of it all is thermal noise and clipping. Noise has a fixed minimum dependent upon resistance*, temperature and bandwidth. We can pretty much fix the last two at 20C and 20kHz. A signal source with a physical resistance of 100 Ohms, a common value for AIs and mixer, will generate -132dBu, -134dBV. Those figures are of course totally in la-la land as the circuitry driving the 100R will be MUCH noisier than that, the best we can probably do is -100dBu but that shows the baseline noise which we can do nothing about...except, make the signal hotter! If we can have a maximum output of say +20dBu we have a potential dynamic range of 120dB. Only the very top end AIs get to that and only a very few better it and not by much.
Then, "professional" signals often need to go a long way, sometimes a VERY long way! The world is full of electronic crap and so we need to take steps to keep it out. Very effective is balanced line working but that only rejects magnetically induced noise. To keep out electrostatic interference and RFI we need shielding and sensible upper bandwidths. Source resistance should also be as low as possible since this "shorts" interference to ground but one very powerful technique is to make the signal voltage very large relative to the induced crap.
Now, in the "guitar/neg ten" world we rarely want to send a signal more than 5m and usually much less. Good job too because the resistances in such circuits can be around 10k Ohms and that is a noise level of -1115dBV (but again, much worse in reality) Guitar pedals have historically been powered by 9V batteries and that gives us an absolute maximum headroom of about 3V rms or around +10dBV and with care and a fair wind that all seems to work pretty well!
"Consumer" level is actually lower than that, around 100-150mV but that is fine because hi fi separates are rarely far apart and back in the days of vinyl, FM stereo and tape, a dynamic range of 70dB was bloody good! With the coming of CD we in theory needed 90dB'sh but the Loudness Wars scotched that one!
*It is only the actual physical resistances that produces noise. Capacitors and pure inductors are noiseless. Active circuitry generates noise of course but that is an altogether more complex problem.
Dave
CoolCat
Well-known member
good stuff. so its not really pro or consumer but purpose and cost as-needed.
any clue why Aphex 207 could add a little switch to do -10 or +4, when other more expensive units don't have the -10 switch?
any clue why Aphex 207 could add a little switch to do -10 or +4, when other more expensive units don't have the -10 switch?
E
ecc83
Well-known member
As you say, cost is a factor. To run at a +4dBu OP level you need a headroom to at least +20dBu (7.75V) and that implies internal supplies of around 15 0 15 volts DC and that means a more powerful supply and higher voltage capacitors i.e. higher costs. The -10/+4 switch is peanuts, it's building everything to "pro" levels which costs.
Dave.
CoolCat
Well-known member
If my higher end preamps had the -10 switch it would have helped with the interface.
No worry's, I just have both interfaces on the DAW now and a couple clicks can swap back or forth.
The Antelope Audio has +4 balanced Line In, will be the Microphone w/ Outboard +4 stuff...
and the Line 6UX8 & Aphex 207 with -10, for the real-time Pod Farm and instruments..guitars, keys...etc...
its nice to have it all wired and correct, operationally working better as designed.
still comically embarrassing as $^%$ realizing a lot the weird issues for years was my own..not knowings.mgeez.
No worry's, I just have both interfaces on the DAW now and a couple clicks can swap back or forth.
The Antelope Audio has +4 balanced Line In, will be the Microphone w/ Outboard +4 stuff...
and the Line 6UX8 & Aphex 207 with -10, for the real-time Pod Farm and instruments..guitars, keys...etc...
its nice to have it all wired and correct, operationally working better as designed.
still comically embarrassing as $^%$ realizing a lot the weird issues for years was my own..not knowings.mgeez.
