ANybody here think High End Pre's are Overrated?

[Warhead]

I've noticed that numerous folks refer to "their clients". Given that this is a 'Home Recording Forum', does this mean that you can successfully run a commercial recording business at home? BTW I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm genuienely curious... I would have assumed most of the folks at this site were singer-songwriter types working on their demo.

A lot of stuff has been done in home studios, nice ones, but home studios. A lot of Motown was recorded in Barry Gordy's house!

War

 

[ronster]

hey,
i've been reading post here for a long time but this is my first post here. just wanted to say that i know for a fact the Scott Stapp record was recorded in a "home studio"! and i know that a lot of great major label commercial albums have been recorded in home studios, but they are really reaLLY REALLY NICE "HOME STUDIOS"!!!

 

[bigwillz24]

I've noticed that numerous folks refer to "their clients". Given that this is a 'Home Recording Forum', does this mean that you can successfully run a commercial recording business at home? BTW I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm genuienely curious... I would have assumed most of the folks at this site were singer-songwriter types working on their demo.

Well when I first started I was a "singer-songwriter" type and I still am; However, at some point you start to wonder if you are good enough to receive money for what you do. Then someone comes along and asks you how much will you charge to record them. Then word of mouth goes around. Next thing you know your "home studio" starts looking like a commercial facility.

 

[vicenzajay]

I agree...

And furthermore, A&H boards, INVHOP have quite nice pres. I would only get an outboard if I were specifically looking to add other colours to my pallette.

Nice preamps on this board...just got the MixWiz v3 16:2.

Enjoying it...Jay

 

[chessrock]

Successfully? Well, that depends on your definition of success.

Well put.

If Roman Noodles and Schlitz beer and just enough to pay the rent late again are your definition of success ...

.

 

[cavedog101]

Excellent posts and a plethora of truth.

On a scale of 1 to 10 concerning the importance of the micpre in the chain , it runs in the +6 department. Room, arrangement, operator skill set, song quality,high grade mics,all sit much higher and will always have a much more profound effect on the outcome of a recording.

That being said, with the gear list Max has provided and looking to the upcoming sessions he listed, there is a high probability that this new musical direction , with the girl vocals and the cleaner guitars, that a high-end pre WILL make an obvious contribution.

And there certainly is a LOT of em. My experience with the 'good' stuff has been that the pieces with a variable impedance on the input have a wider range of colors to choose from with a wider range of mics. The ViPre, The Presonus ADL600, are examples.

What I'm getting at, is IF you have enough stuff to record decent tracks for most sources, then a couple of high-end channels is the ticket. BUT unless you have a KILLER mic locker, its best to choose something that has a bit of variety and options to it.

IMHO, you get more mileage out of a purchase this way.

In your case, Max, I would think seriously about a go-to mic at this time. A Soundelux U195 is going to really kick some serious ass in comparison to what you hear now...and this is only one choice. There are several out there now in this price range that will do magical things to ordinary set-ups.

 

[Ironklad Audio]

to answer the original question:

hell no

 

[Mr. Moon]

I'm tempted to buy one, but I've never used one. And so far, my A&H Mixwiz sounds fine. But am I missing something? I have a feeling, based on the endless threads out there that a pre that costs about twice what a mic costs will make about 5% difference in the sound. And then you have to decide if that 5% is good, bad, or just different.
So waht I want to know is if there's anybody who knows what they're talking about who bought a $2000 mic pre and was disappointed.

I suspect it's kinda like the old Emperor's new clothes thing.

Here's the deal: With a good or great mic preamp (read: EXPENSIVE), you don't have to tweak the crap out of it to get anything you plug into it to sound good. I recently purchased a Presonus ADL 600 (which *is* a $2,000.00 mic preamp), and have been floored by how good (sonically accurate and "real") everything sounds that goes through it: bass, guitar, mics, EVERYTHING! Just BAM! …Sounds good right away. However, I also bought an $800.00 Summit preamp and sent it back because it didn't "do it" for me at all, so just because something is expensive doesn't mean it's good.

I agree that you can get a decent sound from just about any old preamp, but it can take a long time and a lot of tweaking (mic placement, EQ-ing, etc.) to do so. ...Not to mention that once you start layering multiple tracks from lower-quality pre's your noise floor and distortion levels start climbing and color the overall sound immensely.

To me, that is what the big difference is.

-mr moon

 

[xstatic]

I have never regretted buying nice preamps. I have however ended liking them for different reasons than I may have initially bought them. The same goes with mics, monitors, converters etc... I do believe that your gear should be proportional, or at least as much so as possible. Like I would not blow my whole wad of money on a vintage U67 just to run it through a Behringer. I read somewhere that someone reccopmended not buying a good preamp if you have a bad roopm. They said that the preamp would make things sound bad. There is some hidden truth there, but in my opinion not wuite as stated. A good preamp will never make something sound bad. It will however help to allow you to fully hear what was there that already sounded bad

 

[bubbagump]

I thing there is also a point of diminishing returns. I mean, there is a big difference between a Berry board and a RNP... but as you push past an RNP (or the like), the difference becomes less and less noticable. One item of note is that the transients come through better on a better pre.... but like I said, once you hit a certain point, the improvements become more and more subtle IMO. Or as the old timers say, 90% of the cost goes to the last 10% of performance improvement. I mean, I can definately hear the difference between my buddy's Summit pre and my Mackie VLZ board. If you can swing the bucks, there is nothing wrong with good pres... but if you can't, work with what you do have which is the room, performance, a really great arrangement, and mic placement. Those last four are 80% of the battle IMO.

 

[Outlaws]

I have never regretted buying nice preamps. I have however ended liking them for different reasons than I may have initially bought them. The same goes with mics, monitors, converters etc... I do believe that your gear should be proportional, or at least as much so as possible. Like I would not blow my whole wad of money on a vintage U67 just to run it through a Behringer. I read somewhere that someone reccopmended not buying a good preamp if you have a bad roopm. They said that the preamp would make things sound bad. There is some hidden truth there, but in my opinion not wuite as stated. A good preamp will never make something sound bad. It will however help to allow you to fully hear what was there that already sounded bad

I was one of the few people that said that. It won't make things sound bad, and yes, you might hear how bad your room really is, but a good preamp won't make a bad room sound good, and infact, could make you feel awful for spending $2k on something that didn't make the recording sound any better than it did before.

When the room sucks, it makes a much more dramatic effect on the sound that the preamp will. So just upgrading a preamp won't fix most peoples problems most of the time. ie: a preamp is a waste of money 9 out of 10 times IMO....this is homerecording.com, not fancystudiobuffs.com after all.

I firmly belive that room acoustics and treatment is the most over looked aspect of home recording. Everyone likes to talk gear, but even shit gear can make fantastic recordings that compete with top notch gear if its done properly.

 

[xstatic]

I agree to a certain extent. But even in a "bad room" proper mic and pre selection can certainly help to reduce those issues. I also believe that good work can be done with cheap gear. However, Incredible work is what happens when the cheap gear gets replaced with great gear in the previous scenario where good work was done

I think most people agree though that experience always overshadows the other stuff. One thing I have noticed about almost all people with experience.... they choose to use the right tools.... which is rarely the cheap budget stuff

 

[RezN8]

I firmly belive that room acoustics and treatment is the most over looked aspect of home recording. Everyone likes to talk gear, but even shit gear can make fantastic recordings that compete with top notch gear if its done properly.

Very well said -- rep point worthy even!!!

Cheers, Rez

 

[RezN8]

I agree to a certain extent. But even in a "bad room" proper mic and pre selection can certainly help to reduce those issues. I also believe that good work can be done with cheap gear. However, Incredible work is what happens when the cheap gear gets replaced with great gear in the previous scenario where good work was done

I think most people agree though that experience always overshadows the other stuff. One thing I have noticed about almost all people with experience.... they choose to use the right tools.... which is rarely the cheap budget stuff

Also very good points!!!

 

[MadMax]

My Decision

OK, after much gear lust and soul searching, I feel that preamps can be broken down into 2 camps.
1. High end esoteric stuff; Neve, API, Manley, etc.
2. Everything else.

I record at my home studio with the stuff I've mentioned before and I can't notice anything BAD sounding. I think High end pre's have their place, but they're part of a bigger picture and if I don't have world class rooms, mics, converters, mixing skills and ears, they won't make much difference.
So I'm saving my money and sticking with what I've got.
My next purchase will probably be good mics;
Royer 121
Josephson C-42 (pair)
Microtech Gefell M 930 or a Soundelux U 195

 

[ronster]

OK, after much gear lust and soul searching, I feel that preamps can be broken down into 2 camps.
1. High end esoteric stuff; Neve, API, Manley, etc.
2. Everything else.

I record at my home studio with the stuff I've mentioned before and I can't notice anything BAD sounding. I think High end pre's have their place, but they're part of a bigger picture and if I don't have world class rooms, mics, converters, mixing skills and ears, they won't make much difference.
So I'm saving my money and sticking with what I've got.
My next purchase will probably be good mics;
Royer 121
Josephson C-42 (pair)
Microtech Gefell M 930 or a Soundelux U 195

good choice and i would rather spend my money on mics as well...especially if you're liking the A&H Mixwizard. you'll be golden with some of those really nice mics that you've mentioned. i've worked with the A&H MixWizard a lot recently and i think they are awesome boards and i'm very impressed with all that you get and what you can do with one of those. i've heard some really good recordings made with boards that aren't nearly as nice...like the old mackie boards. but to be honest, i think there are more than 2 categories for pres...i think at least 3:

1. High end esoteric stuff; Neve, API, Manley, etc.
2. GOOD MEDIUM PRICED "BANG FOR THE BUCK" PRES (maybe they can be called "Medium End"?)
3. And then Everything else.

a good inexpensive pre for the Medium End category should be something between the 500 and 1,500 range. you will definately hear a difference between a good 1,000 dollar pre and a Mix Wizard, although you might not consider it a HUGE difference. there is a lot of stuff between that price range. after you buy your new mic (or mics) and have had time to play around with it...look into trying a good dual channel pre in the Medium End...especially since most tracks that people record after drums are either 1 or 2 tracks at a time! it should help the sound of that nice new mic you bought...especially the vocal tracks. and if you don't like it or think it's not worth it...send it back to sweetwater, musiciansfriend, guitar center or wherever you bought it from (make sure you understand the return policy before buying it), or if you do like it you can keep it for a while and good pres usually retain most of their resale value on ebay or forum classifieds.

just my .02!

 

[xstatic]

I certainly agree that mics have to take priority. Here is one thing I love about preamps though. They make EVERY mic I won sound a little better. Its kind of like converters, or a clock. They may not be as glamorous, but in the end they have a very large and important impact on things. Once you have a couple of good solid mics, I would highly recoomend at least one or two good solid preamps. Or good solid channel strips. The same is true of outboard EQ's and comps. The Allen Heath may sound good now, but once you hear and feel something better, there is no turning back The same is true of outboard compression and EQ'ing. Exisitng plugins may seem pretty cool right now, but it will only take about 60 seconds of working with the real stuff to figure out why the big boys love them so much

 

[Rodger Hartlett]

One of the big rules of recording is to me if it doesn't sound good in the room then it won't sound good out of the room. One I thoroughly agree . although the right attitude will push a recoding through to completion even in the worst of acoustic scenarios. what does one say when the artist be it band or whatever has enough inherent sound that would justify it's recording in an ' acoustically undesirable' enviroment.
such a case I feel with many a 'U2' record where reverberant waves still may restrict the full impact of a song yet be enhanced in a mood like ambience which in my mind totally can wreck it. no matter how good the pres are/were.

 

[fraserhutch]

They make EVERY mic I won sound a little better.

Poker's been good to you?

 

[ronster]

Poker's been good to you?

roflmao