ANybody here think High End Pre's are Overrated?

[c7sus]

and another option..

www.davelectronics.com/bg1.htm (do a search here and gearslutz)

Im sounding like a broken record, but I own Millennia pres(HV-3C) and the DAV is every bit as good,..., and IMHO.. actually better than the millennia. for 700 bucks..2 channels.


also, the true systems pres are nice...more colored than the DAV.

Crookwood preamps..very nice
Davissound! awesome.


I dont care for the neve-ish stuff, and think that the neve clone fad will die down in a bit. every week a new neve clone is out, with a new batch of chinese mics.


Like some dude said...you can make a record with just ONE kind of pre...just get a really good one .

Davisound YES. Wire-with-gain concept. I have TB-10 #01 I got from Voxvendor right here on this very BBS. I want a couple more channels of that, but I wanna go transformers on what's next.

 

[fraserhutch]

properly[/I].

Overlooked???? Overlooked??? Have you even read half of the posts in this forum???? It';s like the first damn thing that's ever suggested.....

Oh, and the latter part of the argument "but even shit gear can make fantastic recordings that compete with top notch gear", that really all depends on what you mean by "compete".

 

[Outlaws]

Overlooked???? Overlooked??? Have you even read half of the posts in this forum???? It';s like the first damn thing that's ever suggested.....

Oh, and the latter part of the argument "but even shit gear can make fantastic recordings that compete with top notch gear", that really all depends on what you mean by "compete".

Have you even read half the posts on this forum? Is like the first damn thing that anyone suggests is go spend $1000 on a mic and $1500 on a preamp...then another $700 for a converter and $600 on a clock.

 

[fraserhutch]

Have you even read half the posts on this forum? Is like the first damn thing that anyone suggests is go spend $1000 on a mic and $1500 on a preamp...then another $700 for a converter and $600 on a clock.

Not my experience. In fact, offhand, I cannot recall a single thread like this where the subject of acoustic reinforcement and room treatments have NOT come up.

 

[DC-XPL]

The 18-35 year old that listens to your recorded music isn't going to sit there and say - "The vocals are too sibilant and should've been cut 4db around 10k" or "that guitar would've been so much better if it was mic'd with a Royer". I used insanely cheap gear to record a song that I submitted to a national songwriting contest. While I got beat up on my cliched lyrics, the judges all commented on the "sweet, professional quality of the production".

I was pretty stoked about that

 

[xstatic]

Poker's been good to you?

Actually, lately poker has been great to me. I have not however won any mics except the one from one of the PMC contests (which I still have not received

Thta typo was purely my undiagnosed hasty typing dyslexia

 

[xstatic]

The 18-35 year old that listens to your recorded music isn't going to sit there and say - "The vocals are too sibilant and should've been cut 4db around 10k" or "that guitar would've been so much better if it was mic'd with a Royer". I used insanely cheap gear to record a song that I submitted to a national songwriting contest. While I got beat up on my cliched lyrics, the judges all commented on the "sweet, professional quality of the production".

I was pretty stoked about that

Congrats on getting good reviews. However, does this mean that we should just accept those problems and not strive for better quality? I hope not or I will need to rethink my whole profession (which of course I am not ).

 

[fraserhutch]

Congrats on getting good reviews. However, does this mean that we should just accept those problems and not strive for better quality? I hope not or I will need to rethink my whole profession (which of course I am not ).

That of course is the logical fallancy behind that type of argument.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

I think high end Pre's are way overrated - until you really need one.

I would venture to guess that a lot of people posting questions here haven't learned how to use (or understand) all the features of the equipment they already own.

Mic placement, and really knowing your equipment, can accomplish a lot towards getting a high end sound, even in a shitty room with shitty monitors. Once you really learn how to use what you have, what you still need will become very apparent.

 

[cavedog101]

I think high end Pre's are way overrated - until you really need one.

I would venture to guess that a lot of people posting questions here haven't learned how to use (or understand) all the features of the equipment they already own.

Mic placement, and really knowing your equipment, can accomplish a lot towards getting a high end sound, even in a shitty room with shitty monitors. Once you really learn how to use what you have, what you still need will become very apparent.

AMEN BROTHER AMEN!!!!

Perhaps a lot of you dont want to hear this, but its so so true.


I own a Ghost. I NEVER 'need' a high-end pre until I absolutely need one. Then I rent...or borrow. Can I tell the difference in the sound between a 'high-end' pre and the pres in my board? For the sources I would need one on.....yes.

Does this immediately make me want to go out and buy a new widgit?

Well, sure it does....I'm a slut for gear....but I only need this stuff occasionally and its not worth spending the cash to just sit in a rack unused.


Would I spend the cash on a high-end microphone?

ANYTIME!


But thats just me.

 

[JeffLancaster]

I own a Ghost. I NEVER 'need' a high-end pre until I absolutely need one. Then I rent...or borrow. Can I tell the difference in the sound between a 'high-end' pre and the pres in my board? For the sources I would need one on.....yes.

Just curious about this...what types of sources would you say you actually need one on? And since you do attest to the fact that on some particular sources, you get better quality with the high end pres, why is that any different than on other sources?

 

[Outlaws]

AMEN BROTHER AMEN!!!!

Perhaps a lot of you dont want to hear this, but its so so true.


I own a Ghost. I NEVER 'need' a high-end pre until I absolutely need one. Then I rent...or borrow. Can I tell the difference in the sound between a 'high-end' pre and the pres in my board? For the sources I would need one on.....yes.

Does this immediately make me want to go out and buy a new widgit?

Well, sure it does....I'm a slut for gear....but I only need this stuff occasionally and its not worth spending the cash to just sit in a rack unused.


Would I spend the cash on a high-end microphone?

ANYTIME!


But thats just me.

I don't see how this works....

No high end pre is just gonna 'work' on a source. It still has to be matched up to the source. One vocalist might sound better on Pre A while not working so great on Pre B....even if both are high end.

 

[MadMax]

I know I started this thread, but something happened

This past weekend. I was the guitar player on a session at a local yokle home studio where the garage was the recording room and the adjacent bedroom was the control room. The drums sounded 100% better than mine and the engineer said it was the Grace preamps that sound amazing.
I'm not absolutely convinced it's as easy as that, but it was enough to push me over the edge.

I just pulled the trigger on some SCA API & Neve clones. I justified the purchase by assuming I can sell them assembled and tested for at least what I just dropped on them.
Oh- and I bought a Gefell M930 from Mercenary too. I haven't read a bad thing about it.

 

[cavedog101]

All-righty. This is easy to answer. In a full-blown full-length production where you have a serious budget to consider, you have to make choices upfront about the tracking first. This leads to a much easier time at mix.

So I go through the instrumentation thats going to be recorded....I guess I should have prefaced this with saying this is my own bands' projects....but thats about all I do these days.

Anywho...knowing whats going on the recorder to begin with and having a very good idea about the arrangements, I can choose to use the higher end pres on the featured instruments and relegate bed-tracks,percussion, and various short-time instruments and backing vocals to the pres in the console. We frequently do over four tracks at a time and while I do have 'nice' gear, its not all Neve/API/Manley etc..So, in order to keep the harmonic anomalies and build-up to a minimum, I usually will import a couple of pieces of gear for the basics.

The vocals are a whole nother game and we go for as much high-end on these as we can. Including matching mics and pres to the singer. This is all determined months before we actually start an album by doing a lot of pre-production tracking and arrangement takes. We know what we want when we turn the red light on for real.

There are a lot of acoustic instruments in our stuff, and the higher ended pres definately help around this. The Ghost is fine, but when you are trying to capture the nuances of a $6K Banjo, handmade Mandos, several accordians (different tunings.....yes they are tuned different....depending on the # of reeds), and acoustic guitars with 6 and 12 strings, then you want your separation to be definate and clear. This helps adding or subtracting a bunch of stuff at mix.

I mix in a ProTools room on HD3 with lots of bells and whistles, great monitoring and every plug known to man. I track on primarily analog gear.

I pay strict attention to mic placement, choice of mic, choice of pre.

Some pres dont do 'it' for me or for particular mics, but like I said, when the red light goes on, I already know what to expect. If this was a situation of a room for hire, I would have something as a general go-to. Since I have done my homework, recorded music for around thirty years, have a decent sounding room (one I have some control of), have excellent instruments as sources, its not guesswork. I do any project this way and have for years.


quote:
No high end pre is just gonna 'work' on a source. It still has to be matched up to the source. One vocalist might sound better on Pre A while not working so great on Pre B....even if both are high end.

Absolutely true. The U87 sounds great on some sources and not so great on others. My vocalist sounds much better on a tube mic than an fet based circuit.


quote:
Just curious about this...what types of sources would you say you actually need one on? And since you do attest to the fact that on some particular sources, you get better quality with the high end pres, why is that any different than on other sources?

I use the 'better' stuff on featured instruments as I find it much easier soundwise to establish their importance in a dense mix without adding anything to them. A pre with some iron in the circuit tends to have a much more distinctive stamp to it than one without. This ,of course, is a very subjective statement and can be disproven easily. I find that the Ghost pres, for some things, is the only pre that really works. But in answer to your question, its all about production choices. I make them very early in the process and this allows me to maintain the artistic side of producing the final sound through the mix.

 

[MadMax]

CAvedog, so what is your vocal go to chain? You say you record your won band. What kind of music is it, and where do you find the high end stuff is the most necessary or the most "bang for the buck"?
I'm kind of new to this, so I'm forming my views based mostly on what I read here and on other forums. Like API is good for drums, etc...

 

[cavedog101]

Lately the vocal chain has been an ADK Area51 TT mic and a True Systems Analog P2 mic pre. Although the last sessions I used an ADL600 pre from PreSonus and a U87.The 'attitude' comes from the tube mic and the 'clarity' from the pre. Really, this mic is one that no one talks about and it is every bit as good as the 87 in my room or any other high-end mic I've heard. Its absolutely stunning on acoustic guitars. I'll be using a Chameleon for some new tracks soon. I'm thinking that this will sound good with an AT4033 and maybe the 87....I will say that I have gotten some very good vocal tracks from an Octava MK319....its a Russian one and it takes to good mic pres very well. I also have an ART MPA with Mullard tubes in it.....These have a bit more depth of field and gain than the stock tubes. It is also an older American made unit. Very underrated. BTW...You're really gonna like your Gefell.

We do Eclectic Americana. Roots of Bluegrass,Country,RockandRoll,Polka,Dixie and some Blues. There's really nothing like it.


Like I said earlier, use your best stuff on the instruments you want as your features. All the high-end gear really does is allow you to bring out things easily. The type of stamp you put on things will determine where it will easily sit in a mix, and this kinda what Outlaws was alluding to in his post. All pieces of gear do different things to the sound and not all of it is going to work in every situation no matter what the cost.

 

[xstatic]

I do agree that until you need a high end pre, for that user it may be overrated. If their ability is not up to the gear they are using, than it is a bit of a waste. However, I also think that 99% of the time a high end pre will make a huge impact if you allow it to. All I can say is I remember moving from my TAC console to a D&R 4000. The difference was amazing. Then I upgraded yet again to a full on 104 input high end D&R console. Once again, the difference was immediately apparent. I had always been happy with my work before, but once you hear it better and understand what it could be, you just can't go back

 

[cavedog101]

I do agree that until you need a high end pre, for that user it may be overrated. If their ability is not up to the gear they are using, than it is a bit of a waste. However, I also think that 99% of the time a high end pre will make a huge impact if you allow it to. All I can say is I remember moving from my TAC console to a D&R 4000. The difference was amazing. Then I upgraded yet again to a full on 104 input high end D&R console. Once again, the difference was immediately apparent. I had always been happy with my work before, but once you hear it better and understand what it could be, you just can't go back

You had a LOT of ear training to be able to appreciate the difference. This is something that 90% of the folks on here will not have. Not meant as a slight....on the contrary, its what we all need and as Harvey said originally..'a lot of people on here havent learned to use the gear they have'.... There is no magic bullet. There is hour upon hour upon hour of simply hearing and trying different things and searching....Its the only college that really teaches.....

 

[MadMax]

There is hour upon hour upon hour of simply hearing and trying different things and searching....Its the only college that really teaches.....

Well, I just invested almost $5K in my education. I sure hope it's worth it.
SCA frame with 4 A12 (API clone) modules & 2 N72 (Neve clone) modules.
Gefell M930 mic
Royer 121 mic

 

[rsolinski]

Max...you won't regret it! Nothing is a magic bullet but these will make mixing so much easier...less eq etc...what are you using for a comp?

Ray