ANybody here think High End Pre's are Overrated?

  • Thread starter Thread starter MadMax
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and another option..

www.davelectronics.com/bg1.htm (do a search here and gearslutz)

Im sounding like a broken record, but I own Millennia pres(HV-3C) and the DAV is every bit as good,..., and IMHO.. actually better than the millennia. for 700 bucks..2 channels.


also, the true systems pres are nice...more colored than the DAV.

Crookwood preamps..very nice
Davissound! awesome.


I dont care for the neve-ish stuff, and think that the neve clone fad will die down in a bit. every week a new neve clone is out, with a new batch of chinese mics. :rolleyes:


Like some dude said...you can make a record with just ONE kind of pre...just get a really good one .
 
Some people I see saying things like that simply cant afford them. The ones that own high end preamps probably dont think that way, and you dont see many people getting rid of their GMLs to use Behringers. If the engineer sucks, good gear aint gonna save him...but if the gear is great and the engineer is great..watch out!
 
MadMax said:
So waht I want to know is if there's anybody who knows what they're talking about who bought a $2000 mic pre and was disappointed.

I suspect it's kinda like the old Emperor's new clothes thing.
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There's an element of truth to that.

I wouldn't necessarily say that I've been "disapointed" per say, when I've used some of the higher-end stuff.

It's just that it still all comes down to the source ... the rooms ... the mics and my ability to figure out where to point them and how to use them best. It's just that, when you think about it, there are just so many different factors that play such a large role, collectively, in how my recordings are going to turn out.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, yea, in a way there is a certain level of disapointment ... but not the kind you're thinking of. Let me put it to you this way: It's a very rare occasion that I get the opportunity to work with a band that is willing to rent out a nice studio that is going to have a lot of nice mic pres on hand. And when that happens, I get this excitement, and I start imagining what nice mic pre I'm going to use on this ... and what other nice mic pre I'm going to use on that.

But after we all get tracking, I'm still faced with all of the same challenges. For those who mentioned how much easier it is to mix when using nice mic pres ... it's all a pile of pure, grade-A bullshit. My mixing job is an infintesimally small amount easier because I used an API on the kick or whatever. :D I still find myself equally as pissed off that the drummer didn't tune his kit worth a shit ... that the bassist's tone control had way too much treble dialed in ... or that new tubes in the guitarist's amp (that we spent 2 hours changing) didn't sound any better than the old ones. And as a result, the band might as well have just tracked in my basement for $20/hour ... if it weren't for the fact that the studio had a kickass Grand Piano or something. But I'm getting off-topic now, I suppose.

And when I sit down and try to mix this mess ... at no time do I say : "Wow, listen to that microphone preamp we used on that! Whoo hooo! "

And even during those moments of clarity when the proverbial studio or performance magic and/or sponteneity does happen -- and don't get me wrong, because these moments do occur -- I can't necessarily recall a time where the gain stage of a particular mic (or group of mics) was the hero of the day or the subject of unusual praise.

So in a way, yea, I guess I am disapointed at the end of the day, because I never really get afforded the opportunity to truly enjoy or appreciate the neato mic pres I sometimes get to use ... because there's still so many other factors involved in getting the sound I want, and that I and the band will be mutually happy with, that I don't really have time to think much about what channel I plugged a particular mic cord in to (as a means of gain) on a given track.

Sadly, it just isn't that big of a concern or a priority for me when it really comes right down to it.

To put it another way: Hit the snare like you mean business ... and I'll find a way to make that Behringer capture it (or the ART Tube MP or Presonus whatever). Throw up some really good cymbals ... throw in a Fender Jazz bass with newly broken-in strings while you're at it, and a nice lush-sounding tube amp for the guitar ... And I'll find some way of making it all sound good.
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Nice post chess...

You made some very fine points.

But I'm still going to become a gear snob.

I mean how much cooler am I going to look with a Neve Portico than with a Behringer Ultramaximizer.

When it comes to some clients I want the WOW factor to step in and help me make a sale.
 
I think a lot of people waste money on high end preamps while their mic collection sucks. High end preamps aren't over-rated, many aren't anyhow, and it's not a bad idea to have at least 2 channels of high end pres around because let's face it: after recording a drum kit most everything is one or two microphones at a time...so having 2 killer channels of everything (mic, pre, cables, converters) really adds up at the end of a project.

But you gotta build the mic locker first, have a good sounding room, and a good source to point them at. If you don't have that down, yes they are a waste of money.

My $0.02

War
 
I think people have unrealistic expectations about the "difference" high end mic pres will make in their sound. Compared to different mics, good monitors, a good room, and good performers/instruments, the contributions that mic pres make are relatively subtle. You can generate a much larger change/improvement in sound by dinking with these other items than you can with your pres. That said, of course, having nice pres certainly contributes to the quality of the overall sound, but they aren't even close to being a panacea. Many of the songs we all know and love from the 60s and 70s were recorded using only the console pres (although they may have been APIs or Neves) and not a clutch of spendy boutique pres. Now, I'm as much a sucker for nice gear and blinking lights (blue please) as the next guy, but in my case, I'd actually get farther by spending more time practicing my playing or treating my recording space than buying another nice box (not that I'm going to let that dissuade me of course).
 
I have a Neve Portico, its pretty nice, but I have some tracks here that sound just as good recorded with my old Voicemaster Pro. As stated above however it all comes down to the mix and the gel factor. When I track things with the Portico I am not fighting for the ear pleasure factor as much. I can get there with lesser preamps but it requires more EQ and coloring and it's never quite as authentic. All that said, many times the preamp is almost irrelevant by the time you drop compressors or effects on the track, this primarily with more distorted forms of music.

One type of song that high end preamps do make a difference on is ballads in my experience. Matching the vocal with the right mic and preamp can make all the difference. On your average scream in the mic type sound, or a dense mix, not so much a critical factor unless you want to drive the transformers and are going for that type of sound. Another area where I like using high end preamps is on choirs. They tend to hang on to the sound a little more than low end preamps and add an air of suspension.

The room, instruments, talent and monitoring chain are just as important as others pointed out. If you're relatively new to the whole recording thing then you may not even be able to tell a whole lot of difference between two preamps except to say one might sound a little better. My preamps were the last thing I upgraded in my studio. I focused on converters, monitors and room first.....because I wanted to really hear the 10% difference good preamps can make.
 
Middleman said:
One type of song that high end preamps do make a difference on is ballads in my experience. Matching the vocal with the right mic and preamp can make all the difference. On your average scream in the mic type sound, or a dense mix, not so much a critical factor unless you want to drive the transformers and are going for that type of sound. Another area where I like using high end preamps is on choirs. They tend to hang on to the sound a little more than low end preamps and add an air of suspension.
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This I can buy. It makes sense and that's where my thinking is at right now. I've been doing male vocal bordering on screaming, ROCK music with pounding drums and 4 tracks of distorted guitar. I think SM-57's and a decent console work great for this.
But I'm going to be doing some shinier stuff in a while- telecaster country with female vocals-and in my head, I can hear or see the need for some sparkle, or maybe character in the vox especially.
And before I pull the trigger, I think I need more than my ears to be the judge. Like a lot of you said, there's more involved than just the pre. Although, for vocals, using an LDC, I think you want a dead room with no reflections. Well, I've got that. My MBR closet upstairs is perfect for this. and I can change the acoustics up there with some gobo's I've got up there, but the way I've been recording, there are NO reflections up there. So take the room out of the equation.
As far as mics, I don't have anything expensive. I've got a C-1, Apex 460, MXL v93M, 57's & 58's, Beta 57&58. For pre's I've got a Symetrix 528 and a Behringer Ultra Voice Pro and the A&H MixWiz and for outboard comp's I've got a RNC and a Symetirx 522. For converters, I'm using a RME Fireface.
So I'd be looking at a Mic, a pre, a comp(maybe?) and a converter. But if I were going to upgrade the converter, should I be looking at a clock too?
Are there any all in one units that are really good? Like the TC Gold Channel maybe?
 
MadMax said:
But if I were going to upgrade the converter, should I be looking at a clock too?
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Generally, no. If you only have the Fireface and one outboard converter, and you've upgraded to a good converter, you will get the best performance by setting the outboard converter as master. When you have a bunch of digital gear that needs to play nice, then a clock is useful.

The RME shouldn't suck, by the way. I have an RME ADI-8DS, and an A&H MixWiz (modded), along with some other bits. So I can say in your situation, I would upgrade mics before I thought about doing anything else.
 
MadMax said:
How was your MixWiz modded?
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I upgraded capacitors throughout, and replaced opamps on half the channels, as well as the master section. I replaced capacitors in the power supply, and heatsinks to the regulators. I have the v2, which doesn't have individual phantom switches on each channel, but I did rewire the phantom switch so I could press it without a pen. I switched the direct outs to pre-fader. I also added some heavier gauge bus bar wire, but I'm not sure that made it any quieter :confused: Looks nice though. :o
 
sounds kinda mean - but if you cannot hear the difference - don't bother buying. wait until you can. they will be useless to ya otherwise.

if your skills/ears are at the cooking mac and cheese level - there is no need to get a nice set of cooking knives and a commercial stove/oven. there certainly is a difference on how much low end an M1 will allow you to put to "tape" over a pre on say, a ghost.

example: this past year i was partnered up with a cool guy who has (self admittedly) limited skills but a decent studio with a ghost and an hd24. he drooled to get my gear down there. when i did - he couldn't hear the difference...he thinks the ghost pres rule. more power to him- you know? he'll work with what he has until he needs something better.

Mike
 
bigtoe said:
sounds kinda mean - but if you cannot hear the difference - don't bother buying. wait until you can. they will be useless to ya otherwise.

if your skills/ears are at the cooking mac and cheese level - there is no need to get a nice set of cooking knives and a commercial stove/oven. there certainly is a difference on how much low end an M1 will allow you to put to "tape" over a pre on say, a ghost.

example: this past year i was partnered up with a cool guy who has (self admittedly) limited skills but a decent studio with a ghost and an hd24. he drooled to get my gear down there. when i did - he couldn't hear the difference...he thinks the ghost pres rule. more power to him- you know? he'll work with what he has until he needs something better.

Mike
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I hear ya. BUT--If I don't try the good stuff, how will I know what I'm missing (or not missing)?
Is there anything really good available at a mega music mart? I really think this is an opportunity to take advantage of their 30 day return policy.
 
ah...the mega mart isn't the only place for this type of policy...while some of them carry some decent stuff...why bother with em? mercenary and atlas both offer try out periods with some of the most knowledgable people. my and the past few experiences i've heard of people buying just amps thru guitar center / musician's friend have been horrendous...i'd equate their warehousing to sending china thru the us mail.

that gc pro idea is nothing short of frightening...but i digress...

i wasn't saying you shouldn't try them out at all...i'm all for em...they make a huge difference to me. if you cannot hear the quality difference - your monitoring or your ears just aren't ripe yet...

i actually prefer the ghost pres on toms out of the stuff i have...so once you can hear the difference...you can make an educated opinion on when the 'lesser' pres work for ya...

Mike
 
Okay..here is my take on the pre-mic issue fwiw..

the cheaper the mic (57/58 and all the clones etc...) the better the pre has to be and vice versa..great mic, okay pre =good
A U67 sounds good thru my mackie vlz ,even better thru my API 312, but very usable thru the mackie...
My beta 58's sound flabby thru the Mackie and MUCH better thru the API (and PM1000)..way tighter low end and extended and pleasant highs with the good pre's...
I could cut an entire record with 57/58's with my good pre's , my LA2A and RNC 1773...
I could do the same U67/87's and my Mackie pre's...

One DEFINITE difference with 57/58's and good pre's is the proximity effect..it is very pleasant and usuable with the good pre's...with the Mackie (and my Tascam 388 and old yamaha mx10 mixers) the proximity effect on dynamic mics is very muddy...

the cheapest way to figure this out is not to go to banjo center and listen thru crappy headphones and monitors..find a studio that is well equipped near you..book an hour or 2 and take your mics with you..record them (and some good one's any studio should have) with you just singing or talking thru different pre's..take a cd home of your tracks and listen to them. You will find what you like/don't like about different combos right away...

Cheers,
Ray
 
bigwillz24 said:
Nice post chess...

You made some very fine points.

But I'm still going to become a gear snob.

I mean how much cooler am I going to look with a Neve Portico than with a Behringer Ultramaximizer.

When it comes to some clients I want the WOW factor to step in and help me make a sale.
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I've noticed that numerous folks refer to "their clients". Given that this is a 'Home Recording Forum', does this mean that you can successfully run a commercial recording business at home? BTW I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm genuienely curious... I would have assumed most of the folks at this site were singer-songwriter types working on their demo.
 
j-boy said:
does this mean that you can successfully run a commercial recording business at home?
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Successfully? Well, that depends on your definition of success. You can make money of course but a commerical based operation usually requires more space and no-family in the same general vicinity. That said, I've done a few onsite projects but would prefer recording remotely because booking the house for a full day of recording doesn't always work out with the other members of my family.

You can pick up $300-500 a weekend if you have a good remote setup. Nice little cash flow.
 
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