2008 Martin D28 - horrible resonances

  • Thread starter Thread starter Monkey Allen
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60's guy said:
According to post #5 the frequency that is most troubling to the OP is 800hZ.


Before I go any further, let's take a look at 6 string guitar frequencies.

View attachment 150415

When the OP is playing an open Am chord using only strings 4, 3, and 2 the frequencies are 164.8, 220.0, 261.6 respectively.

I'll grant it that the above chart only shows frequencies up to the 12th fret. You have to go much higher up the fretboard to reach 800 hZ and hear those frequencies.

On the other hand, even though the OP is only playing those 3 strings it is possible that he's hearing the sympathetic, harmonic resonance of an awesome D28. That's the beauty of acoustic guitars! Sorry, but I fail to comprehend his continued dissatisfaction with a guitar he has owned for 16 years.

I know for myself that whenever I play an acoustic guitar for the first time, I fret the D and G strings on the 5th fret. I strum all 6 strings. I listened and hope that I do hear sympathetic harmonic resonances. If I hear that, it's a keeper guitar.

Again, that's the beauty of acoustic guitars. Regardless of brand name, they're all different, good or bad.

YMMV
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I wouldn't pay much attention to my comments about 800hz...(or to the year I bought my guitar in for that matter - saw your post about that earlier)...from memory that was a wild guess. Listen for the issue at 6:31 in the video. That's the issue I have.

Frankly, that's all you need to know. It's nothing to do with microphones, rooms, bad playing etc. It appears to be to do with the way certain notes on a guitar combine to then create some kind of resonance. However...as I said just before...even my Tele plucking the 1st fret B string I can hear the fundamental C note itself...but it is accompanied by some kind of overtone. I'm happy to record examples.

But to cut to the chase...6:31 in that video. That issue/ phenomenon there is the same as what I get. It aint pretty. It certainly is not the sound of an awesome D28.

I would say, if I were a betting man, that ALL guitars exhibit more or less of this issue when playing around the chords/ strings in question. My guitars exhibit more. The guitar in the video exhibits the issue very well. The question is why...and the consensus, which I'm happy to act on, is setup. And setup is a broad term inclusive of many things. So the answer to the problem is not one thing (which is what I was hoping for) but many things.
 
Monkey Allen said:
In fact if you strum the last 2 strings of a standard C cowboy chord...the XXXX10...the C note on the B string at the 1st fret and the open high E string you can generate this resonance.
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I totally agree with you! Plucking those two strings on any of my guitars (electric or acoustic) generates an intolerable resonance.
 
60's guy said:
I totally agree with you! Plucking those two strings on any of my guitars (electric or acoustic) generates an intolerable resonance.
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How you pick, pluck or strum the strings and being able to control your pick attack can greatly alleviate those symptoms.

The guitar is by no means a perfect instrument.
Part of being a great player is being able to adapt and compensate for the inherent flaws in your instrument.

A famous classical player once said…… “Guitar is the easiest instrument to learn and the hardest to master”


(Don’t remember who said that. Maybe Segovia)
 
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Monkey Allen said:
2. What this video of this guy playing a Yamaha...he's showcasing it for the planet. Check it any time you want but I just heard from 6:25 minute mark. He throws in some open C chords...and listen to that massive overtone/ ghost tone/ harmonic thing he's getting there.



I don't care what planet you're from or what music you care to name...acoustic guitars are not recorded with that ridiculous overtone thing going on. None of the records I like have acoustics on them recorded like that, with guitars that sound like that. But my million dollar martin has it....my expensive slotted headstock Taylor has it...and this random video with this random youtube guy trying to sell a random Yamaha acoustic guitar has it too.
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Ok, WFH day here so I can finally come back and listen on a decent set of speakers.

So, 6:25 of THIS video, this is what you're hearing your guitars do? That strummed chord is an example of the horrible 1k overtones you're referring to?

Honestly, whatever I can hear in that clip is awfully subtle, but sounds a little like either a slight amount of fret buzz on the strummed strings (where they're being hit differently than the fingerpicking before that), or possibly the chord not being fingered perfectly cleanly so one or more of the treble strings is buzzing very slightly as it touches one of the fingers in front of it. In a pinch I'd say maybe slight fret buzz, as the strums get harder.

In any event it's very subtle, I had to listen a few times before I could even decide what I was hearing that you might consider a problem. I think most listeners wouldn't even think twice about that part if they heard it in a song.
 
If you're hearing buzz you're hearing the wrong thing. I can't hear any buzzing.

I'm gonna just do the saddle/ nut stuff when I get time and report back. No idea when I'll have time. I'll check in when I can here but in the meantime feel free to chat among yourselves etc and see what you come up with.
 
Monkey Allen said:
If you're hearing buzz you're hearing the wrong thing. I can't hear any buzzing.

I'm gonna just do the saddle/ nut stuff when I get time and report back. No idea when I'll have time. I'll check in when I can here but in the meantime feel free to chat among yourselves etc and see what you come up with.
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Is there any way you can post a clip of what YOUR guitar is doing? "Buzz" is probably not the right word, but there are some harmonic overtones I'm hearing that sound kind of like the unwound strings barely touching something as they vibrate. It's really tough to say though, the effect is pretty slight
 
DrewPeterson7 said:
Is there any way you can post a clip of what YOUR guitar is doing? "Buzz" is probably not the right word, but there are some harmonic overtones I'm hearing that sound kind of like the unwound strings barely touching something as they vibrate. It's really tough to say though, the effect is pretty slight
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Yeah I can. Kind of busy with other work related stuff right now. So I might be a random while. The kind of sound you're describing isn't what I'm on about. No worries though. I'll be back when I have time. Thanks Drew.
 
Update...even diagnosing this thing is difficult for a low IQ fella like me. But I think I've narrowed things even further. The absolute worst manifestation of this problem can be heard when the B string is fretted at the 1st fret. So just plucking that note...that's a C...B string at 1st fret...that C note that is played is accompanied by this resonance/ sympathetic overtone/ ghost frequency thing. So I think starting all close inspections on the B string should be the first thing to do.

There could be an issue where when fretted there at the 1st fret the string slightly touches another fret somewhere producing some kind of harmonic. Most llikely candidate would be the 2nd fret. But it maybe not. So maybe the first fret has worn, lowering the string when fretted at the 1st. Or it could be that the nut groove on the B string has lowered over time messing with the action of that string. Or the saddle has lowered where the B string crosses over time. Or any combination of these things.

So that's why I kept hearing it in C chords, Am chords etc. Anyway...it really appears to me to be an issue with that B string.

Having said that, A string 15th fret...playing that C note...I hear a similar thing. So, guitar might not like C notes.

As you were...
 
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Monkey Allen said:
Update...even diagnosing this thing is difficult for a low IQ fella like me. But I think I've narrowed things even further. The absolute worst manifestation of this problem can be heard when the B string is fretted at the 1st fret. So just plucking that note...that's a C...B string at 1st fret...that C note that is played is accompanied by this resonance/ sympathetic overtone/ ghost frequency thing. So I think starting all close inspections on the B string should be the first thing to do.

There could be an issue where when fretted there at the 1st fret the string slightly touches another fret somewhere producing some kind of harmonic. Most llikely candidate would be the 2nd fret. But it maybe not. So maybe the first fret has worn, lowering the string when fretted at the 1st. Or it could be that the nut groove on the B string has lowered over time messing with the action of that string. Or the saddle has lowered where the B string crosses over time. Or any combination of these things.

So that's why I kept hearing it in C chords, Am chords etc. Anyway...it really appears to me to be an issue with that B string.

Having said that, A string 15th fret...playing that C note...I hear a similar thing. So, guitar might not like C notes.

As you were...
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Just take it to a tech already. All the posts on this thread ain’t gonna fix it.

A good fret dress and crown and polish can fix any fret issues.
Remember, frets wear. Just like the brakes on your car.

Maybe the neck is too straight. This will lower your string action in the ‘cowboy chord’ area. (Nut to 5th fret)
Maybe you need a nut made.
Maybe there’s loose bracing causing weird overtones.

But a good tech will straighten it all out. Guitars need a good set up from time to time anyway.

So just take it in
 
Yeah I know. But I'll do it myself. A good tech here will gouge me like you wouldn't believe. Absolute robbers. Anyway, I won't go on and on about it. The thread has served its purpose and I've got a basic approach worked out.

Thanks everyone
 
It might be worth it, if you can find a reputable tech.
Proving, or disproving, certain things can be done.

For example, the fact that you're finding the issue with B string fretted at first rules out the nut,
unless what you're hearing is another open string sympathetically ringing.

That's easy to prove by muting all other strings with your hand.
If your issue persists with all other strings muted then it's not an open string sympathetic ringing, and not the nut.

If there's visible wear on the fret that should be easy to spot.
You can detune a little then hold a bend 1: bringing pitch back inline and 2: putting the string on an unworn / less worn area of fret.

If it's not visibl worn you can still rule out the fret height by sliding in a temporary dummy first fret - A fine screwdriver or something - Just thick enough to raise the string slightly higher than first normally would.
Now you have extra clearance, you can see if the issue persists, ruling out or confirming the string touching against higher frets.
Sometimes just pressing down much harder than necessary can be enough to raise the string higher than normal for testing.
That depends somewhat on your fret height.

Both will affect pitch to some extent - You may or may not need to compensate with tuning.

idk, it comes down to finding concrete ways to reproduce and observe the issue,
and concrete ways to rule out various components of the instrument.
A good tech should be able to do that pretty fast.
 
Steenamaroo said:
It might be worth it, if you can find a reputable tech.
Proving, or disproving, certain things can be done.

For example, the fact that you're finding the issue with B string frettet at first rules out the nut,
unless what you're hearing is another open string sympathetically ringing.

That's easy to prove by muting all other strings with your hand.
If your issue persists with all other strings muted then it's not an open string sympathetic ringing, and not the nut.

If there's visible wear on the fret that should be easy to spot.
You can detune a little then hold a bend 1: bringing pitch back inline and 2: putting the string on an unworn / less worn area of fret.

If it's not visibl worn you can still rule out the fret height by sliding in a temporary dummy first fret - A fine screwdriver or something - Just thick enough to raise the string slightly higher than first normally would.
Now you have extra clearance, you can see if the issue persists, ruling out or confirming the string touching against higher frets.
Sometimes just pressing down much harder than necessary can be enough to raise the string higher than normal for testing.
That depends somewhat on your fret height.

Both will affect pitch to some extent - You may or may not need to compensate with tuning.

idk, it comes down to finding concrete ways to reproduce and observe the issue,
and concrete ways to rule out various components of the instrument.
A good tech should be able to do that pretty fast.
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Yep, good summary I think. I think it's the saddle...there's something off there with the saddle. The neck was a little up bowed so I thought that might be part of the problem but adjusting the trussrod and straightening it didn't help. There's also no frets touching that B string when fretted at the 1st. It's very hard to be conclusive but to the naked ear the problem sounds to me like it's coming from the saddle. Figuring out exactly what will probably be a job for a pro. But I'll have a decent crack at it myself first. It could be wear on the bone saddle itself where the strings cross...it could be that the saddle is not as snug in the slot as it used to be...could be wood slightly worn where the balls of the string/s lock in inside the slot...could be the bridge pins have lost some integrity...could be the entire saddle is starting to ever so slightly slip or that it has moved. Could be that the entire saddle is slightly too low. So lot's of things. But yes, it seems to me to be saddle related.
 
60's guy said:
umgf.com

The Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum-Making my D-28 sound better

I’m mainly an electric guitar modder but decided to pull the trigger on getting a quality acoustic. I was able to score an almost new sunburst D-28
umgf.com umgf.com
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Thanks, yeah interesting. He's trying to describe what he's hearing but as some people say in that little thread...it's hard to describe. Several people are talking about wolf notes...their descriptions of what they are doesn't add up to what I am getting or what that fella is trying to describe. There were a few comments about bridge pins there. I have the stock Martin D28 bridge pins in mine. I might get some hard wood ones. I still plan to record examples when I get time.
 
Monkey Allen said:
I worked out the absolute worst, most offending problem is the G string. When played G open string for example the plucked note - the basic or fundamental note...is accompanied by this sympathetic/ harmonic/ overtone-like ghost tone that will join in on the fundamental milliseconds after the string is struck. Naturally this causes all manner of problem when playing open chords especially. But the problem is not restricted to only open string G. It's the G string in general.
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And NOW (according to your latest posts) you're attempting to convince yourself (and other people) that it's the B string (not the G string) that is the root cause of all your resonant woes.

You should also consider registering and posting at https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/
 
60's guy said:
And NOW (according to your latest posts) you're attempting to convince yourself (and other people) that it's the B string (not the G string) that is the root cause of all your resonant woes.

You should also consider registering and posting at https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/
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I've bit my tongue 60's guy all this time but what's your problem? You sound almost enraged. Certainly hostile vibes coming from your posts. I'm not under oath here mate. I'm not under sworn deposition. This is a discussion forum. In the past I thought this, now I think that. I'm not sure. It's difficult to work it out. I'm just talking. Who knows who could come in to this thread one day and go "hey I know EXACTLY what you're talking about and this is what I figured out". Now, you've been fishing for a reaction from me with your chastising, passive aggressive tone. You need to leave it. It's tiresome. Go do something else. You don't need to be here. Certainly not since what I say seems to upset you so much.

Oh I just noticed your "bullcrap" posts. Charming as usual. You're aware of the outrageous cost here in my part of Australia are you?
 
Egh, I can see both sides here.
I appreciate the value of talking a thing out and covering all angles but there seems to be an absence of "I tried that and..."
Lots of speculation and not a lot of proving anything.

Maybe you haven't had time, maybe you don't feel up to it...whatever,
but I imagine we're all looking forward to some kind of measurable result that proves, or disproves something, and helps you on your way.
(y)
 
There's no sides. There's just me, when I have a moment to think about it, trying to work out what's going on. To start with I don't think I had as fair appraisal as I have now. So it has taken me time to even remotely diagnose the nature of the problem. As new things came to light I made comment of them. It's been difficult to even describe the problem and the terminology and vocabulary has frustrated people from the beginning. Some way more than others. I'm sincere in my musings and I haven't become angry or annoyed or resorted to passive aggressive, snide remarks. If there's "sides", I'm on none of them. I started a thread and have updated my findings here and there. That's all. Maybe someone lobs in here one day, as I said before, and says..."I know exactly what you're describing and the problem invariably can be found....". I just don't think there's a place for anger or snide remarks here. Those kinds of things are a reflection on the person making them. Not me.
 
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