2008 Martin D28 - horrible resonances

  • Thread starter Thread starter Monkey Allen
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I had an acoustic dreadnought with what appeared to be a string buzz. Nothing I tried or looked at seemed to reveal the source. Then, in desperation, I used my thumb, pressing various spots on each tuning head/key as I strummed. Lo-and-behold, when I got to the (forget which one), the buzzing stopped. Turned out one of the screws had backed out a hair and vibrated, resulting in a sound like a string buzz. I snugged it down and that was that.
 
spantini said:
I had an acoustic dreadnought with what appeared to be a string buzz. Nothing I tried or looked at seemed to reveal the source. Then, in desperation, I used my thumb, pressing various spots on each tuning head/key as I strummed. Lo-and-behold, when I got to the (forget which one), the buzzing stopped. Turned out one of the screws had backed out a hair and vibrated, resulting in a sound like a string buzz. I snugged it down and that was that.
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Sometimes the screw in bushing on their Grover Rotomatics or shaller gears gets a little loose and the washer vibrates, which can sound like it’s coming from inside the body.
 
Scott Baxendale said:
Around the late 80’s early 90’s Martin switched from Celluloid binding to PVC binding. The PVC binding tends to come loose usually around the waist, but sometimes all the way off. That is one of the myriad of design changes made over the years to ‘improve production’ that actually diminished the quality a little. I’ve had to reglue that binding on 90’s and newer Martins a thousand times. 70’s and older Martins don’t really have this problem.
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I used to own a Martin om28 I bought new back in around 2015. I've since sold it. But the binding on that one peeled away from the waist area like crazy. Apparently Martin had experimented with new binding glue in 2014 or so. For such an expensive guitar the quality control was a joke really. My D28, which I bought new in 2008, had some minor binding problems...nothing like the om28, where the binding just seemed like it was held on with spit. I used Titebond to repair it the first time. But it didn't last. I had to use something stronger in the end. Titebond is at its best wood on wood, less so binding on wood.
 
A buddy of mine has a Martin D28, and last year he was taking it in to the shop for the same problem.... the binding in the waist area was pulling up. I would have just gotten a nice long cloth wrap and TiteBonded it back in place.

I'll be up at the Heritage guitar factory in a month. I'll have to check with the guys doing the binding and see what they are using today. This was about 5 years ago that I took this shot. They weren't using Titebond for binding, just for setting necks, etc. As Monkey said, better for wood on wood.

binding.webp
 
Monkey Allen said:
I used to own a Martin om28 I bought new back in around 2015. I've since sold it. But the binding on that one peeled away from the waist area like crazy. Apparently Martin had experimented with new binding glue in 2014 or so. For such an expensive guitar the quality control was a joke really. My D28, which I bought new in 2008, had some minor binding problems...nothing like the om28, where the binding just seemed like it was held on with spit. I used Titebond to repair it the first time. But it didn't last. I had to use something stronger in the end. Titebond is at its best wood on wood, less so binding on wood.
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It’s not the glue, it’s the binding. Traditionally Martin used Cellulose Nitrate binding. Around 1990, ( I’m not sure of the exact year) they switched to PVC binding. The older celluloid binding glues with an acetone based glue, think of model airplane cement, which melts the binding together creating a molecular bond. Once it’s glued on the guitar it’s pretty stable.

However with PVC binding the glue doesn’t melt or create a molecule bond and the material is so slick that glue doesn’t hold it very well. This is the problem with a certain era of Martin guitars. All the so-called experts say the Martins quality suffered in the 70’s after the switch from Brazilian rosewood in 68, but really it’s the late 80’s through the 90’s where their quality suffered. I recently saw a bunch of new Martins and they we ALL terrible guitars.

Get a pre 1980 Martin and you will have a good guitar.

I was a gold level Martin Warranty center for decades. From the late 70’s into the early 2000’s
 
TalismanRich said:
A buddy of mine has a Martin D28, and last year he was taking it in to the shop for the same problem.... the binding in the waist area was pulling up. I would have just gotten a nice long cloth wrap and TiteBonded it back in place.

I'll be up at the Heritage guitar factory in a month. I'll have to check with the guys doing the binding and see what they are using today. This was about 5 years ago that I took this shot. They weren't using Titebond for binding, just for setting necks, etc. As Monkey said, better for wood on wood.

View attachment 140626
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I never got with the rubber band method of gluing binding. We use binding tape. The best glue for bindings is actually superglue, which is what we have used since the 80’s for most bindings and inlays. I think Heritage is using the same type of PVC binding that Gibson uses.
 
Scott Baxendale said:
It’s not the glue, it’s the binding. Traditionally Martin used Cellulose Nitrate binding. Around 1990, ( I’m not sure of the exact year) they switched to PVC binding. The older celluloid binding glues with an acetone based glue, think of model airplane cement, which melts the binding together creating a molecular bond. Once it’s glued on the guitar it’s pretty stable.

However with PVC binding the glue doesn’t melt or create a molecule bond and the material is so slick that glue doesn’t hold it very well. This is the problem with a certain era of Martin guitars. All the so-called experts say the Martins quality suffered in the 70’s after the switch from Brazilian rosewood in 68, but really it’s the late 80’s through the 90’s where their quality suffered. I recently saw a bunch of new Martins and they we ALL terrible guitars.

Get a pre 1980 Martin and you will have a good guitar.

I was a gold level Martin Warranty center for decades. From the late 70’s into the early 2000’s
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I don't doubt it. I have read though that in around 2014 Martin experimented with a different binding glue. Probably read that on the Acoustic Guitar forums. If that's true then the problems with binding were probably compounded and made worse in addition to their issues with the different actual binding material you mention. I also do not doubt your comments about Martin quality. That om28 I was talking about cost me a literal bomb of cash and while it appeared very, very well made and looked a gorgeous guitar, it had issues...the binding I mentioned and other things. For the money paid it should have been 100x was it was. Sad but glad to have sold it and got most my money back after owning it 6 or 7 years.
 
TalismanRich said:
A buddy of mine has a Martin D28, and last year he was taking it in to the shop for the same problem.... the binding in the waist area was pulling up. I would have just gotten a nice long cloth wrap and TiteBonded it back in place.
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Interesting to see how long the Titebond lasts on the binding. Might be fine, might not. I tried Titebond initially and found it didn't last more than a year or two. I ended up having to go some kind of super glue route. Can't recall the name of the glue but after looking into it a bit it seemed the better option for binding was some kind of super glue. Since I used that the binding has been set like a jelly.
 
Monkey Allen said:
Interesting to see how long the Titebond lasts on the binding. Might be fine, might not. I tried Titebond initially and found it didn't last more than a year or two. I ended up having to go some kind of super glue route. Can't recall the name of the glue but after looking into it a bit it seemed the better option for binding was some kind of super glue. Since I used that the binding has been set like a jelly.
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Titebond doesn’t work great with slick plastic. If I needed to use titebond or Hyde glue to glue any kind of plastic binding then it’s imperative that you scuff the inside surface to glide the glue some grip or it will just peel right off after awhile. In a new guitar, superglue is far superior for this application. The problem is it’s very tricky to use it on a finished guitar without creating a cosmetic mess. If you drip it or get it on the finish it can be real hard to clean up. I use it constantly in my shop, along with titebond and Hyde glue.
 
I worked out the absolute worst, most offending problem is the G string. When played G open string for example the plucked note - the basic or fundamental note...is accompanied by this sympathetic/ harmonic/ overtone-like ghost tone that will join in on the fundamental milliseconds after the string is struck. Naturally this causes all manner of problem when playing open chords especially. But the problem is not restricted to only open string G. It's the G string in general. So if you play an open Am chord...the G string is now playing an A note and the problems remain.

Playing open C you get the open G string, open G chord...open G string...you get the idea. Whatever chord you care to play the G string is dogged by what I describe...this sympathetic/ harmonic/ overtone-like ghost tone. To my ears, and because I've been playing for long enough to know, it's extremely distracting...insufferable. I can't last more than a couple of minutes hearing the mess. And of course...trying to record this cluster truck is an exercise in insanity because the cold ears of the microphone just say..."oh...you want that sympathetic/ harmonic/ overtone-like ghost tone all over the track? Can do boss, easy." It gets recorded in all its horrible glory. Acoustic guitars being such complex combinations of sound, any rogue ghost tone absolutely ruins everything.

Since the guitar feels structurally sound (Martin D28 2008)...nothing broken or lose or warped etc...that leaves the setup...issues with the nut, the saddle etc. It's been 14 years since I had it pro checked and set up. Which is probably why it sounds no good. But anyway, it's been a long time since I tried to really record it and recently decided to narrow down on where the problem is. And that's it...it's the G string.

HAVING SAID ALL THAT...get a load of this:

1. My Taylor GC5 has very similar problems but here's the icing on the cake:

2. What this video of this guy playing a Yamaha...he's showcasing it for the planet. Check it any time you want but I just heard from 6:25 minute mark. He throws in some open C chords...and listen to that massive overtone/ ghost tone/ harmonic thing he's getting there.



I don't care what planet you're from or what music you care to name...acoustic guitars are not recorded with that ridiculous overtone thing going on. None of the records I like have acoustics on them recorded like that, with guitars that sound like that. But my million dollar martin has it....my expensive slotted headstock Taylor has it...and this random video with this random youtube guy trying to sell a random Yamaha acoustic guitar has it too.

I don't get it.
 
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According to your 1st post you bought that D28 in 2009. Throughout this thread you have received a plethora of advice to get to the root cause of your dissatisfaction seemingly to no avail.

When you say "Open Am Chord" do you mean to say your fingering is
1754866673997.webp
 
Given that you get that sound, even when you finger the G string, it sounds more mechanical than anything. Maybe your truss rod is vibrating?
 
Maybe. What do you reckon is going on with the brand new guitar in the video in post #90?
 
What were the results from these suggestions from earlier?

-try in a different room
-try a different mic
-change strings
-ensure that saddle and nut are perfect
-use inspection mirror to check for lifted bracing
-ensure bridge isn't lifting - see if thin paper can go under it anywhere

If you're convinced the issue occurs on a particular string fretted then you've essentially ruled out the nut, but not the saddle.
Unless you're not comfortable doing it, that's an easy thing to rule out.
You can switch out a saddle for testing non destructively and fairly easily.

Keep in mind that saddle notches (whether intentional or through wear) will correspond to string gauge,
so changing out for lighter, or heavier, strings can cause problems.

I still wouldn't rule out the idea that something in your environment is accentuating this unless, of course, you have already.
 
Steenamaroo said:
What were the results from these suggestions from earlier?

-try in a different room
-try a different mic
-change strings
-ensure that saddle and nut are perfect
-use inspection mirror to check for lifted bracing
-ensure bridge isn't lifting - see if thin paper can go under it anywhere

If you're convinced the issue occurs on a particular string fretted then you've essentially ruled out the nut, but not the saddle.
Unless you're not comfortable doing it, that's an easy thing to rule out.
You can switch out a saddle for testing non destructively and fairly easily.

Keep in mind that saddle notches (whether intentional or through wear) will correspond to string gauge,
so changing out for lighter, or heavier, strings can cause problems.

I still wouldn't rule out the idea that something in your environment is accentuating this unless, of course, you have already.
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- no difference
- no difference
- no difference
- not fully sure yet but nut and saddle appear fine
- no problem
- no problem

What do you make of the video I linked? The video has a great example of what's happening. Can you hear it?
 
As before, not sure if it's what you're hearing but I do hear a sine-wave like ringing at around 795-800hz.
corresponding to the 5th of his C chords.
You can actually hear it ringing out on his final held chord right before he speaks, almost like electric guitar feedback.
There's a pretty large swell at 6:31...

Is that what you're hearing?
 
We'll struggle with terms and definitions to describe what I'm talking about until the end of time I suppose. But yes, if you're around 6:31 you'll hear it. The 6:31 you draw attention to is a classic example. Perfect example. You nailed it. That (and here come the words/ terms and vocab awkwardness) whining, resonance, sympathetic harmonic, ghost tone...whatever we want to call it is exactly what I'm talking about. The reason I resurrect the thread is because it's occurred to me that maybe acoustic guitars in general are subject to this phenomenon. My Martin does it...the subject of the thread...my Taylor does it. And this random guitar in this random video does it. The chances they are all suffering from the same setup/ structural/ strings/ room/ bracing/ microphone...whatever...issue is remote. The phenomenon presents itself most vividly in open position/ cowboy chord strumming. It has nothing to do with microphones. A microphone WILL capture it, absolutely. But it is not the microphone or the room or anything like that. It occurs to the natural ear. I can hear it wherever I play the guitar. So it is the guitar itself. And it's not even my guitar necessarily or my other acoustic guitar or the guitar in the video. Because all 3 do it...and the odds of all three guitars having the same technical issue is unlikely. That's my opinion.

If I play a bar C chord up the neck at the 8th fret this phenomenon does not happen. But the classic test is the C chord in open position/ first 3 frets. Standard C cowboy chord. Strum it a while and you'll get this ghost overtone/ resonance thing. A dog of a thing to record. My acoustic guitar recordings (of strumming) have always been terrible. And it's because of this resonance thing.

If I had to say what is was it would be the relationship between, let's say, the open G string and the open high E string and the C note fretted on the B sting. It's something about those notes/ strings that create this resonance. In fact if you strum the last 2 strings of a standard C cowboy chord...the XXXX10...the C note on the B string at the 1st fret and the open high E string you can generate this resonance. Same notes/ fingering are part of the Am cowboy chord too...same problem. You'll hear it in X33210 as well. You will not hear it in xx0232 or xx0321. You will hear it a bit in x33211. You won't hear it in 320003 or 320033. You will hear it a bit in 022000. And so on.

These resonances that dog those chords I mention are un-recordable. I listen to a lot of acoustic records and none of them have acoustic guitars recorded with this phenomenon. So they either have very well set up guitars and I have 2 that are not + reference to that one in the random video that isn't, or they EQ the problem out in post (unlikely...highly unlikely because that wrecks the tone in general when you have to go in there and scoop out that insane resonance/ issue). I just think it's so unlikely that a guy trying to review and sell guitars on youtube plays a nice new Yamaha...and it has this issue in spades...and I have 2 acoustic guitars and they both do the same thing. So I don't know what is going on.
 
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I'd still replace the saddle, if only for testing.
It looks fine is no use.

I'd be curious where your guitar naturally resonates and if that relates to the specific frequencies of this issue.
My Yamaha rings like a bell if I sing an F in to it - You can feel the whole thing vibrate (with the strings all muted) like an electric toothbrush.

I bet yours rings closer to a G.
 
Steenamaroo said:
I'd still replace the saddle, if only for testing.
It looks fine is no use.

I'd be curious where your guitar naturally resonates and if that relates to the specific frequencies of this issue.
My Yamaha rings like a bell if I sing an F in to it - You can feel the whole thing vibrate (with the strings all muted) like an electric toothbrush.

I bet yours rings closer to a G.
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I'm fine with replacing whatever I need to replace. But I'm interested in why both my guitars are doing this (a dread and a concert)...and the guitar in the video.
 
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