Neutrik Patch Bay and "Half Normalled"

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jneau

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Got my patch bay all set up so that I'm only using wires on the front when I need to do something that isn't a normal route. Love it.

However, ever since I figured out what "Half Normalled" meant, I worry a bit that I'm losing a portion of the signal whenever I route something with patch cables.

Any opinions or data on this? It just seems like splitting the signal would mean that I'm getting something less than 100% of it.


Example: Drum machine comes into patch bay and normally goes out to my Mackie. When I want to record, I patch into the drum signal and reroute to my Neo input...but the drum signal is still going to the Mackie also.


Possible answers I can see...
- Dude, it's okay...you aren't losing any signal that way
- You're losing signal, but nothing significant
- Stick a terminator into the corresponding B to cause the switch to flip
- Flip your jack around and go permanent full normal! And have a wire dedicated to that channel!!!
 
I would go with door number 4...or...

My personal patchbay setup is to NOT normal anything...that's what the patch cable is for. ;)
And...I can't think of any time I ever needed a split/half-normal...
 
Half normalled jackfields are pretty common in the broadcast industries and can be very useful. As long as the destinations are significantly higher impedances than the sources this doesn't "lose" any signal and causes no problems.

Using patch cords for "normalling" things is not the "normal" way of working--pun intended.

Bob
 
It's a patchbay...normalling is nothing different than using a patch cord.

I find it a more "obvious" approach to connecting things rather than mixing non-normalled, normalled and half-normalled points across several bays, and it's the most flexible.....though obviously it takes more patch cords and about 20 seconds of extra time to make the connections.
 
Correct answer:
jneau said:
- Dude, it's okay...you aren't losing any signal that way
Click to expand...
"Signal" = voltage.

If you're using ordinary line-level audio equipment (and it's at least remotely modern), each piece has an output impedance that's much lower than the input impedance of whatever you're connecting it to through the patchbay ... like multiple orders of magnitude lower. That means the outputs can supply many times more current than they'll ever need to, and nothing whatsoever bad happens when you connect an output to multiple inputs.

If you were trying to maximize power transfer, you'd be "losing" something. But you're not.

Just don't do anything nuts like wantonly splitting the output from a power amp ... or, really, connecting a power amp to a patchbay at all.

FWIW: I didn't read the OP's post as saying he thought he was "normalling" the bay by using patch cords (a "normal" describes how a bay behaves in the absence of a cord). He's just worried that using half-normalled points makes output signals get multed to more than one input - sometimes because that's exactly what you're trying to do, sometimes more as an unintentional side-effect.
 
Side point:

I've never set up a patchbay that wasn't mostly normalled, and typically half-normalled.

Among more obvious "should be normalled" things: what do you otherwise do with inserts? Stick a patch cord in every single one of them?

I'm more accustomed to the "run just about every jack through the patchbay" approach. If you do this without normals - at least in an old-fashioned analog setup, which maybe is anachronistic at this point in history - you can wind up with at least 20 or 30 patch cables that are most-always connected, hanging there getting in the way of everything.

With a full-on computer-based setup, it doesn't matter that much. Indeed, you may not even need a patchbay at all.
 
And, of course, just to be complete (though I'm pretty sure this is obvious): all bets are off when you start fooling around with digital data lines. Solder up a USB "Y" cable and you're inviting issues.
 
sjjohnston said:
you can wind up with at least 20 or 30 patch cables that are most-always connected, hanging there getting in the way of everything.
Click to expand...

:D

Actually...there are times when I have twice that...but...they are not ALWAYS connected. See, I run a hybrid ITB/OTB setup...so normalling was not going to be the most obvious approach. Sometimes I connect my pres/OTB gear to my tape deck...sometimes to my DAW....and then there are times I connect the tape deck to the DAW...etc...and then there's my analog console.

AFA built-in inserts...I rarely need/use them, and I do have all the inserts wired at the patchbay...BUT, I don't have them connected at the console (I can just reach behind th e console and connect if needed, and I've hardly ever needed)...becuase if I need to "insert" something in the signal path...it's just another patch cord at the bay.

Trust me, I've done the normalled and even some half-normalled setups in the past...but considering my setup and how I like to work, it made most sense NOT to normal anything inside the bays, rather I just use them to bring all my I/O to one location, and then I patch as needed, and not always the same way twice. During mixdowns, I might have 40 patch cables...and you know, they don't get in the way of anything, and it's very simple/easy to trace my signal flow because I see all the connections externally. :cool:
 
miroslav said:
It's a patchbay...normalling is nothing different than using a patch cord.

I find it a more "obvious" approach to connecting things rather than mixing non-normalled, normalled and half-normalled points across several bays, and it's the most flexible.....though obviously it takes more patch cords and about 20 seconds of extra time to make the connections.
Click to expand...

Ewww you like spagetti coming out of your patch bays?
 
And just read that last post, ok makes sense.

I avoid clutter as much as I can though.
 
Hey...a neat patchbay just means you're not working hard enough! :D ;)

I've had people tell me it's nice to see someone really use his patchbays...instead of just having them for show with maybe only 4-5 patch cords (in which case you probably don't even need to have a patchbay). :)

I like using the patchbays....and I don't get freaked out by dozens of patch cords all interconnected and crisscrossed. It's much clearer to me than thinking about what's normalled or half-normalled...but you know, everyone has to find their own SOP, there's no right/wrong way about it....there's no rule about which gear should be normalled and which shouldn't.
 
Lol! There's tons of room for a messy patchbay even with normaling. Even if you normal everything sensible, there are still lots of things for which there is no "normal" layout!
 
Don't worry about losing something from the signal, it's really not an issue. As Bobbsy mentioned, half-normalling is very common across the broadcast and recording industry.
 
Side note...

All of my patch channels are sitting their in normal/half normal mode with their preferred routes and I need no cables unless I want to change something...and I love that. Then I know that I'm only doing something non-standard if I have a patch cable hooked up.

The only ones that are flipped around to be full-on normal are the ones that send a signal to an effect unit and bring it back...I didn't want those defaulting to loop back for fear the effect would explode ;)
 
Yeah...normalling certainly does "clean up" the need for patch cables. If you have a set SOP that you always use, it can be the way to go.

One other thing about normalling/half normalling that I don't care for is the fact that your entire signal path hangs on the leaf springs of the patch bay jacks...which is the connection that you "break" when you insert a cable into a normalled point, and which springs back to make contact when you remove the cable.
When oxidation gets on those contacts...it's not easy cleaning them!!! Not to mention, on cheaper patchbays, those types of spring contacts will crap out first.
I get a much more solid connection with the patch cable, and it's easier to clean those contact points on the jacks than the little leaf springs.
 
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