Patchbay and rack gear printing onto take

[OscarVelour]

Hi all, I've been using rack gear for a little while and I've decided it's finally time for a patchbay to manage it. My audio interface setup is the common Behringer UMC1820 and ADA8200 combo giving me 16 inputs. For the inputs on the rear of the UMC180 I'm going to make an xlr patch panel just so they're all accessible at the front of the unit. After a few videos I think I understand how to hook up a patchbay with an audio interface and various outboard pieces of gear but I have one question I haven't been able to find an answer to:

I believe the first thing a mic/instrument signal should go to is a preamp, in this case the 16 preamps on my interface. But I also want to use outboard gear such as a tube preamp, compressor etc while recording e.g. printed onto the track. Whenever I look up hooking up rack gear to an audio interface it's always as an effect you can access in your daw by routing already recorded tracks through the gear, never using the gear while tracking.

Basically I want to set up a patch panel to control the signal path of mics so they could go: tube preamp -> compressor -> audio interface, or I set it so they just go straight into the interface.

I get the feeling I'm not explaining this very well and just creating word spaghetti. If you can understand what I'm trying to do, could you let me know if it's possible? The way I can think to do it in my head is having all mics going into an xlr patch panel, then going into a patch bay where the inputs/outputs of all my rack gear is accessible, and the inputs of my audio interface is accessible. But this would mean that my audio interface and it's preamps would be last in the signal chain when using any rack gear, if that makes a big difference. Would that work?

 

[Ujn Hunter]

Yes, it would work just fine. Remember to create your Patchbay like a Waterfall. Top makes sound... Bottom receives sound. Also make sure to make a spreadsheet or a diagram, labels, etc... nothing worse than setting up a Patchbay and not knowing what is what.

Here is a simple example of a "4" channel Patchbay using your gear, or rather the example you requested. (Note: I've patched them 1-4 but they could be patched in any order you see fit, the idea is the same patching from Top to Bottom):

	1	2	3	4
A (Outs):	Microphone Out	Tube Preamp Out	Compressor Out
B (Ins):		Tube Preamp In	Compressor In	Audio Interface In

Patch (Signal Flow) would go from 1A to 2B then from 2A to 3B and from 3A to 4B. (If you wanted to say, skip the Compressor, just go from 2A to 4B or to go straight to the Interface by going 1A to 4B).

Note: If you're using Phantom Power on any of the Mics... you will probably need to make sure you're using a balanced Patchbay... and be careful as patching anything with Phantom Power will result in a loud pop, and can damage speakers... You might want to double check things before making a Patchbay involving any Phantom Power'd equipment first.

P.S. How is that ADA8200? I've got the UMC1820 as my main AI too and have been meaning to expand.

 

[OscarVelour]

Yes, it would work just fine. Remember to create your Patchbay like a Waterfall. Top makes sound... Bottom receives sound. Also make sure to make a spreadsheet or a diagram, labels, etc... nothing worse than setting up a Patchbay and not knowing what is what.

Here is a simple example of a "4" channel Patchbay using your gear, or rather the example you requested. (Note: I've patched them 1-4 but they could be patched in any order you see fit, the idea is the same patching from Top to Bottom):

	1	2	3	4
A (Outs):	Microphone Out	Tube Preamp Out	Compressor Out
B (Ins):		Tube Preamp In	Compressor In	Audio Interface In

Patch (Signal Flow) would go from 1A to 2B then from 2A to 3B and from 3A to 4B. (If you wanted to say, skip the Compressor, just go from 2A to 4B or to go straight to the Interface by going 1A to 4B).

Note: If you're using Phantom Power on any of the Mics... you will probably need to make sure you're using a balanced Patchbay... and be careful as patching anything with Phantom Power will result in a loud pop, and can damage speakers... You might want to double check things before making a Patchbay involving any Phantom Power'd equipment first.

P.S. How is that ADA8200? I've got the UMC1820 as my main AI too and have been meaning to expand.

Thank you for such a clear answer! Trying to visualise it all in my head and figure out if it would work has been giving me a headache. The ADA8200 is great, it just works completely seamlessly

 

[jamesperrett]

The big problem is that your preamp output is going to be at line level while your audio interface will be expecting a mic level input if you are using the XLR inputs. It also isn't a good idea to run mic signals through a jack patchbay if you are using phantom power. You may want to keep your mic lines permanently connected to the UMC1820 and use the ADA8200 with the external preamps and other line level sources because it has both mic and line inputs on its front panel.

 

[rob aylestone]

The conventional wisdom was that mics don’t go through patchbays, with solid reasons for this in an uncontrolled situation, where people could do stupid things, but in a home studio, owner operated, you probably wont do daft or destructive things.

all I would do is colour code the description strip maybe one colour for ins and outs at line level and another for ins and outs that are mic level. That should prevent you doing mismatches. I suppose it also means that you also need a row of female XLR, wired so their signal appears on a top row of jacks somewhere else, so you can use ordinary mic cables into the patch. You can then route everything, everywhere.

 

[Slouching Raymond]

I am using the SSL Big Six, which is a relatively cheap inline mixer.
Mics go into preamps on the mixer, then insert jacks go to the patch bay, to take in whatever outboard gear I want.
I can apply the outboard gear during either recording, or mixing.

 

[rob aylestone]

The real thing with patch bays is normalising - so your everyday setups work without ANY cables in the socket holes. If you get this basic feature wrong, then they become confusing and a mess! In a refit of my current studio, I spent time thinking about everything I'd used cables for in the previous version, and in this one, I cannot remember when I have actually done any patching, because I got it right - and everything can be done from the computer, with no need for changing things.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I think for your situation, use a patch bay for accessing the outboard gear and external preamp, but manually patch the input of the interface using the front panel connectors. I see little advantage to you in using the normaling function of a patch bay. Just use it to bring the rear panel connectors of your pre and outboard to the front of the rack.

 

[Slouching Raymond]

To do the normalizing, you have to decide what's normal.
Perhaps, like me, you may not have a 'normal'.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

My typical use of normalizing is when using mixer inserts. Since connecting to the patch bay defeats the internal normalizing of the insert jack, patch bay normalizing is used to replace that function. My other use is to normal mixer tape outputs to interface inputs. Neither of those uses apply to the OP.

 

[Ujn Hunter]

Just in case you're getting confused with all this talk of Normaling... here is an Example for your previous setup that would work with Normaling:

	1	2	3
A (Outs):	Microphone Out	Tube Preamp Out	Compressor Out
B (Ins):	Tube Preamp In	Compressor In	Audio Interface In

It's a little more confusing Setup wise... but it means that you don't have to run any Patch cables from the Front of your Patchbay if your Normal Setup is Mic > Tube Preamp > Compressor > Audio Interface. Normaling just means that the Signal Routing in the Back of the Patchbay will carry through from the A to the B of each Patch (Pair). You could still skip the Compressor for instance by Patching a cable in the Front from 2A to 3B for instance. Or Mic directly to Audio Interface by Patching a cable in the Front from 1A to 3B.

 

[OscarVelour]

Thanks guys for all the wisdom! I think the setup will be all my mics into a 16 input xlr patch bay which go into the top row of a 24 channel patch bay. The inputs for the audio interface will be on the bottom row and normalled so by default all the microphone outs go to the audio interface ins. Then I'll have the compressor/preamp/eq ins and outs on the patchbay too so I can patch them in when necessary. It'll be a balanced patchbay so the phantom power can come through, and I've read that rack gear shouldn't really be damaged by phantom power if I happen to leave it on when patching them in.

The first 8 channels of my interface have switches for mic/line level and since my rack gear is all stereo I'll only be ever using them with the first two channels of my interface.

I think this covers everything? Mics all go into an xlr patchbay and in most situations go straight into my audio interface. Then if I want to record with my rack effects I patch them in and switch the relevant inputs to line level. Phantom power will only ever be supplied from the audio interface when using all 16 tracks without effects patched in, if I'm using the rack effects then the tube preamp will supply phantom power.

 

[Farview]

What I used to do is have the snake from the live room plugged directly into all my preamp inputs. I would select what preamp a mic was connected to by choosing the appropriate channel on the snake.

The outputs of the preamps went to the patch bay and were half-normalled to inputs on the interface. If I wanted to insert a compressor or something between the preamp and interface, I would do it there. If I didn't need to insert anything, it would already be connected to the interface.

In the DAW, I would simply select the input the preamp was connected to in order to record the signal.

There is no need to be able to plug any preamp into any input on the interface, so you can just normal those connections and not use a million point patch bay with ten thousand patch cables to do the simplest thing.

 

[kenh]

What I used to do is have the snake from the live room plugged directly into all my preamp inputs. I would select what preamp a mic was connected to by choosing the appropriate channel on the snake.

The outputs of the preamps went to the patch bay and were half-normalled to inputs on the interface. If I wanted to insert a compressor or something between the preamp and interface, I would do it there. If I didn't need to insert anything, it would already be connected to the interface.

In the DAW, I would simply select the input the preamp was connected to in order to record the signal.

There is no need to be able to plug any preamp into any input on the interface, so you can just normal those connections and not use a million point patch bay with ten thousand patch cables to do the simplest thing.

N00b here, just looking for some ideas about patch bays and my workflow, and this would make sense for my workflow, as i could have the snake box right by me when tracking.

Would there be any issue with using a snake that has balanced (1/4 phono) returns, and then use these phono returns for anything DI (bass and acoustic guitar)?
Or even use the balanced return for a headphone line?

Thank you in advance!

K

 

[Farview]

That would work for headphone feeds, internment will kind of depend on how long the snake is and what instrument. It would be safer to get a di box and run it down the xlr

 

[kenh]

Thanks Jay, makes sense. Most (well all so far) of the pre-made snakes are like 25' or longer, so i can see that as a prob for instruments. Going custom i think is too pricy for what it is worth, but i do see custom studio wall boxes that can be made shorter. So prob will just get something like the Hosa littlr bro or something like this to handle the mics.

 

[Farview]

If you do go the DI route, get an active one. Active dis work for anything, the downsides are the need for phantom power and they tend to be more expensive.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

There are one or two situations where a passive DI is as good or better than an active. They may be better at solving ground related problems. And I had a very unusual situation with a custom tube preamp that had no output transformer. The active DI I tried absolutely didn't work (because tube prefer lower impedance), but the passive did.

 

[noah330]

I have two 96pt tt patchbays.

I have one of the ART XLR passthrough panels for my mic preamps. This way, I can plug a snake into the front of the panel or run XLR directly. I don't like having preamp inputs on a patch bay because of the Phantom. Not usually an issue, but I have seen it go bad.

There are 16 xlr connections on the front of the ART. Those 16 XLRs go to my mic preamps:

1-4 - API The Box
5-6 - API 312
7-8 - ADL-600
9-16 - Avid Carbon

The outputs of the preamps (sans Carbon) go to the first eight in the patch bay. So the top row looks like this:

The Box 1-4 Out | 312 1&2| ADL-600 1 &2 |

On the other end of the patch bay, I have (on the bottom row) 1-8 into Carbon's line.

I plug a TT cable into which pre and input I want to use. I could normal things, but in my situation, and with the way Carbon works, it wouldn't be the best idea.

I also have my compressors set up this way.

1&2 - 2 LA-2As
3-4 - 2 DBX 160s
5-6 - 2 1176s
7-8 2 Valley People

etc.

 

[ecc83]

Whenever patch bays are discussed the bogey of phantom power comes up and there is much myth and misinformation about its destructive ability, both to the device supplying it, e.g. a pre amp or external equipment.

IMO by far the most serious problem with putting 48V on a TRS is that you make it likely that massive bangs will be sent to monitors and cans as the plug momentarily shorts the power. That MIGHT damage certain kit but is in any case very unpleasant and hardly "professional!"
Shorting the PPower inside a pre amp should never do harm. The worse case dissipation of the internal 6k8 feed Rs is under 0.4W so any decent quality gear should use 1/2W resistors and cope with that indefinitely.

However, external equipment is not as a rule protected from voltages greater than their internal supply rails so 48V could blow a chip! Paradoxically it is the accidental connection of an OUTPUT to a phantom source that is most likely to cause damage.

Then there is the ribbon mic question. No modern ribbon should be bothered by ppower and indeed BBC mic feeds had 48V on their XLRs permanently and the venerable 4038s survive! I know of no documented example of a ribbon mic being so damaged?

My opinion FWIIW is, bring XLRs 'out front' for convenience* and use TRS JUST for line ins and outs and yes! Have the bay 'half normal'.

*More a 'Break out Box' than a patch bay, you can do the same for MIDI and S/PDIF.

Dave.