Who's the Boss??

[Lt. Bob]

How many times have you been in a studio with someone else producing or engineering the recording? You would need that to compare performances.

If recording yourself isn't taking away from the performance, then it's not a distraction.

DavidK is NOT recording himself. Having someone around that isn't cohesive with the flow of the project is a distraction that he doesn't need.

I stand by my initial post.

Yep ..... the mere fact that the guy irritates him is a distraction without regard to any of the actual tracking and mixing stuff.
I'd say at this point (even before doing any recording) that the relationship is already poisoned so unless they've paid him and have no choice, the ME needs to go.
Some people just don't get along unfortunately.

 

[SonicAlbert]

So what if they don't get along? Everybody is being paid to do a job. You don't have to go out to dinner after the session and be best pals to do good work together. Some very talented people are "difficult", and that alone is not a valid reason for firing.

If the band is funding their own project, then in my opinion DavidK needs to get to work politcally with them and try to get them on the same page as him regarding the mix engineer. If they still want to use the guy, then DavidK needs to decide whether he wants to be involved or not.

I think he also needs to talk directly with the ME as SouthSide suggested and really establish what's what with the production. That will be hard to do with any teeth if he doesn't have the full support of the band though. So that has to come first.

 

[ez_willis]

So what if they don't get along? Everybody is being paid to do a job. You don't have to go out to dinner after the session and be best pals to do good work together. Some very talented people are "difficult", and that alone is not a valid reason for firing.

If the band is funding their own project, then in my opinion DavidK needs to get to work politcally with them and try to get them on the same page as him regarding the mix engineer. If they still want to use the guy, then DavidK needs to decide whether he wants to be involved or not.

I think he also needs to talk directly with the ME as SouthSide suggested and really establish what's what with the production. That will be hard to do with any teeth if he doesn't have the full support of the band though. So that has to come first.

I may be wrong, but I don't think so. It's DavidK's own project. Why go in to battle with an army at war with itself when there's so many other cooperative soldiers out there?

 

[DavidK]

I may be wrong, but I don't think so. It's DavidK's own project. Why go in to battle with an army at war with itself when there's so many other cooperative soldiers out there?

This is correct. I am composer, artist, producer, errand boy, librarian. I am trying to get ahead of any problems that may arise, its a gut feeling I have based on phone conversations. Hopefully I am wrong and all will be OK. It is going to cost a considerable amount of money to hire union musicians. The scale is stupidly high, no wonder we lose all the work to Eastern Europe.

Thanks for all the responses fellers.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I think he also needs to talk directly with the ME as SouthSide suggested and really establish what's what with the production. That will be hard to do with any teeth if he doesn't have the full support of the band though. So that has to come first.

Why go in to battle with an army at war with itself when there's so many other cooperative soldiers out there?

My understanding of this project - and David can correct me if I have it wrong - is that this is a fusion/classical project with mostly hired musicians accompanying David on his strings. As such "the band" is not involved in the production decisions on this one. Addiotionally, I believen this really is Dave's pet project, that he is the one that has done all (or at leat most) of the hiring and rental decisions, just like a good ol' producer would do. As such he *is* the producer (and, as a person with far less intelligence and sense would say, "the decider" )

I'm not sure who's checking accounting is funding all this, but I think that if it were someonone above Dave, that person would probably not give a rat's ass about the daily knob twiddling decisions being contested here.

If that analysis of the situation is right, then yeah, David does have to work it out with Captain Ego mano a mano. And I'm glad that Garry Marshall agrees with me D j/k) that that is something that needs to be handled off the playing field and not in front of the players.

Oh, and Al, next time you talk to Mr. Marshall, tell him he really needs to divorce himself from that debacle of a reality TV show that Spielberg saddled him with .

EDIT: Oops, David snuck in under me while I was typing. My IMHO stands pat, though. Just wanted to acknowledge the update.

G.

 

[Lt. Bob]

So what if they don't get along? Everybody is being paid to do a job. You don't have to go out to dinner after the session and be best pals to do good work together. Some very talented people are "difficult", and that alone is not a valid reason for firing.

If the band is funding their own project, then in my opinion DavidK needs to get to work politcally with them and try to get them on the same page as him regarding the mix engineer. If they still want to use the guy, then DavidK needs to decide whether he wants to be involved or not.

I think he also needs to talk directly with the ME as SouthSide suggested and really establish what's what with the production. That will be hard to do with any teeth if he doesn't have the full support of the band though. So that has to come first.

DavidK is the band basically so he doesn't have to do squat. It's up the the ME to get along with HIM ........ unless they've already paid which I would have wonder why you would pay in advance for something that's so often gonna be altered once you get into it.

 

[SonicAlbert]

I"m confused now DavidK. If this is your gig, you are producing it, hiring the band, etc. How did you get stuck with a mix engineer that you didn't know and don't like? Did you hire him yourself and now are having second thoughts about it?

 

[DavidK]

I"m confused now DavidK. If this is your gig, you are producing it, hiring the band, etc. How did you get stuck with a mix engineer that you didn't know and don't like? Did you hire him yourself and now are having second thoughts about it?

Yes. He seems to know his stuff quite well but has been a pain in the ass to deal with. Not only with me but with the label.

 

[DavidK]

Update:

As predicted from the start, this guy turned out to be an absolute nightmare. I could write a book on it. This was the most difficult person I think I have ever dealt with. It ended with him quitting today, 8 days into the project, and he has the tracks.

The guy was not only difficult but utterly incompetent. They were some of the worst mixes I could possibly imagine. He literally thought he knew everything and everyone else was bad. The players were some of the best on the world. This no talent kid thought he should produce MY album. Goodbye loser, have fun in court when the union takes your house.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Update:

As predicted from the start, this guy turned out to be an absolute nightmare. I could write a book on it. This was the most difficult person I think I have ever dealt with. It ended with him quitting today, 8 days into the project, and he has the tracks.

The guy was not only difficult but utterly incompetent. They were some of the worst mixes I could possibly imagine. He literally thought he knew everything and everyone else was bad. The players were some of the best on the world. This no talent kid thought he should produce MY album. Goodbye loser, have fun in court when the union takes your house.

Dave,

I'm truely sorry to hear that. If there's any silver lining - slight though it may be - better for him to quit 8 days in than 18 days in.

Maybe you *should* write a book about it...or at least a series of articles, something you could sell to an editor or publisher and recoup at least something monetary from the experience .

Best of luck for you from here on in. You know who much I appreciate your work and product, and I hate to see you get derailed.

G.

 

[Reggie]

I don't get it. Why would you hire someone to mix your record if he sucks at mixing and is a jerk to deal with? Did he have an awesome track record/reputation or something? How does a monkey like this float to the top?

 

[DavidK]

I don't get it. Why would you hire someone to mix your record if he sucks at mixing and is a jerk to deal with? Did he have an awesome track record/reputation or something? How does a monkey like this float to the top?

1. Found out too late what a jerk he was.

2. Needed Pro Tools

3. He has some knowledge of engineering.

4. Cheap.

Basically he was the most stubborn person I have ever met. EVER. He knew everything and everybody else knew nothing. He tried to turn my classically oriented album into some thin, tinny, eq-carved mess. It was unreal.

 

[DavidK]

BTW: my mixes of the same stuff are about 6 ZILLION times better. And that aint saying much, because I am a mediocre engineer.

I learned a HUGE lesson: toys mean diddly. I didnt need this guy at ALL, I needed his toys. For what he could do with 100 grand worth of stuff, I could do 6 zillion times better with Sonar 3 and 200 buck monitors. Being a good engineer is all about being a good MUSICIAN as well. All the engineer knowledge is futile if one posesses a tin ear.

 

[ez_willis]

Full Sail grad?

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I learned a HUGE lesson: toys mean diddly. I didnt need this guy at ALL, I needed his toys. For what he could do with 100 grand worth of stuff, I could do 6 zillion times better with Sonar 3 and 200 buck monitors. Being a good engineer is all about being a good MUSICIAN as well. All the engineer knowledge is futile if one posesses a tin ear.

And that sums this whole racket up in a nutshell.

G.

 

[LeeRosario]

David,

why do you bother with assholes like that? It's a drag on money, creativity and I can assure you...

There are plenty of talented MEs with the soul of a loyal and enthusastic equal. I can understand producers giving heat, but MEs shouldn't be in such a position.

Believe me, I know they exsist.


hypothetically of course

The situation:

The producer and the band are the same person. Since this of course is a "hypothetical" situation, , let's call the band SchmavidJ.

SchmavidJ has hired an ME that is pretty damn difficult, and it hasnt even started. I dont know if money has been paid yet, if not it would be simple, I would just fire him. If he has been I cant, its a tight budget. Err, hypothetically.

Anyhoo, I am getting signs that there is trouble ahead and I want to take care of it before it happens. I am of the opinion that the artist/producer is the top cheese and a hired ME is literally a hired employee, even if I am not directly paying him. Keep in mind that I have been in the music biz for 25 years and made 59 CDs. I have not seen this before, the ME seems to think he is something he is not. He MIXES the CD. That's about it, right? I will be there for all of it, but I respect his expertise on things like eq. Musically, its a rock/classical hybrid and I doubt many people would know how to mix this. Its been a giant pain in the ass.

 

[SonicAlbert]

1. Found out too late what a jerk he was.

2. Needed Pro Tools

3. He has some knowledge of engineering.

4. Cheap.

It sounds to me like you weighted the equation far too heavily into areas that don't matter, i.e. toys, protools, cheap. Not sure what you mean by saying that he had some knowledge of engineering, but using an engineer that was unknown to you was very risky.

What I've always done is have my engineer of choice mix my projects in my place on whatever toys I personally own (I'll track somewhere else). Early on it was certainly primitive, but because the engineer was good the projects turned out good. By primitive I mean mixing on Mackie CR-1604's and an Alesis Quadraverb and Yamaha REV5. No other outboard at all, but it still turned out great. The engineer is EVERYTHING.

Each project I'd ask the engineer if he had any suggestions for gear to improve my studio, or something he felt he needed or missed in this session. Next time he was in the studio it would be sitting there. After that session I'd ask again, and write down his suggestions. Over the years I accumulated a pretty decent set of tools to mix with, and all the choices were based on working experience.

If you were in LA I could send you to a great engineer with a great attitude who is affordable and would do a killer job for you. But I don't know anybody in Cleveland, sorry.

What do you mean he has your tracks? I'm assuming you still have your raw tracks, and he just kept the work that he did. You really didn't let him walk out the door with all your originals did you?

Obviously, there's nothing he can do with the tracks he has taken with him. Unless he wants to get sued. So I don't think you have anything to worry about in that regard, unless he has your only copies.

 

[DavidK]

It sounds to me like you weighted the equation far too heavily into areas that don't matter, i.e. toys, protools, cheap. Not sure what you mean by saying that he had some knowledge of engineering, but using an engineer that was unknown to you was very risky.

Yup, I will be the first to admit that I messed up. The guy was a complete jerk as well as being incompetent. Also, my unusual brand of classical crossover takes a certain kind of experience.

What do you mean he has your tracks?

A flute and trumpet were tracked there. There is no doubt in my mind that this is the type of guy who will sabatoge anything. Its really quite amazing, I offer some local guy a chance of a lifetime and good money, he fights me and everybody 100% of the time then quits midway. I have 98% of the tracks and the label has the demo that they heard months before this moron got on board.

Since it was a union gig for a major label, he will probably be in some serious trouble. Personally I dont care, I am glad he is gone. But he did half of a job, quit and kept the tracks. Thats called stealing.

If you were in LA I could send you to a great engineer with a great attitude who is affordable and would do a killer job for you. But I don't know anybody in Cleveland, sorry.

The reason I did it in Cleveland was that I cant leave. I am playing with the symphony all summer. We dont have much of a scene here for recording. The guy who does the Cleveland Orchestra tracked the strings and did great. This other numbskull was trying to tell him how to record. One of the greatest Orchestras ever, the engineer has made all their recordings for 20 years and some kid with no experience tries to tell him what to do.

Same with me. Same with everybody. He alienated EVERY person on the album. When I was first starting this, I emailed Southside Glen. I was considering having him do it. I just couldnt travel and would have needed to, its a very complex classical deal and needed additional tracking on my violin stuff which has still not been done.

 

[SonicAlbert]

Are you going to retrack the trumpet and flute, or try to get the recordings from him?

If he was paid, he has absolutely no right to walk away with those tracks. It *is* called stealing, but in reality it comes down to the simple equation of money. Which costs less: retracking or getting the recordings back from him? If an attorney is required, even a few hours of billable time could cost enough to make it worth it to simply record the musicians in again.

The label might be able to apply enough pressure to get him to give up the tracks, or offer him a few extra bucks to turn them over. That would be the best solution, assuming he is not a complete jerk and messes with the tracks.

 

[DavidK]

Are you going to retrack the trumpet and flute, or try to get the recordings from him?

.

Retrack. The players are friends and will do it again for free, they are Cleveland Orchestra folks. They were paid well the first time I can get a studio for a few hours, it wont take long. I dont want to see his face and dont wish to help him, it will just make matters worse for him. I will bill him.

I havent seen anything REMOTELY close to this in 25 years as a pro. Here I am, giving an inexperienced guy the opportunity of a lifetime and good bucks. From the getgo he was a consumate jerk, saying things like " I have to put my name on this record" and all ego. I dont think he has made but a few albums, crappy ones too. He actually thought that he should produce the album And tried to.

The good news is that the CD is 10000000000% times better now that this moron is gone. No comparision.