What's the deal.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ignatius-
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I want to quote something, but I don't know what to pick! It is so great to read everything here... I got over the insecurities of owning a so-called "prosumer" machine real fast - it's great (not that I am saying I am that easily swayed :cool:). I am going to buy whatever 8 track I buy with confidence - and I am probably going to stick with Tascam! (Man, an M-520 sounds really nice right about now, too - I'm looking to upgrade from my M-312B - the faders are really scratchy, even after I cleaned them, thanks to Sweetbeats' great thread on that subject...).

I also have no problem with unbalanced cables - I've always wondered why people try to push me away from them. (Ok, sometimes I get some unwanted cable noise, but it adds character! and I don't mind replacing cables every now and then...). I guess I've always figured that balanced would be better, but I have no problem sticking with unbalanced - it's so much cheaper too!
 
I'm really enjoying this thread! I think what I love about this forum is that I've been able to assemble a respectable home studio for recording really challenging and difficult music by interacting with a bunch of really supportive folks.

I like it here too and I think one of the main reasons is because by-in-large the frequent fliers of the Analog Only forum are more interested in the process and medium of analog recording, and less so what is being used and what is being recorded.

So there is something of interest to contribute by just about anybody and few to say "that's wrong". We seem to just enjoy analog gear and the processes surrounding its use from consumer to professional formats. Its really refreshing.

Personal and gear prudence/safety aside, it seems that if you encourage others in what they are doing there is a better chance to gain *something* through their experiences rather than trying to corral them to what is "right".

I think opinions are welcome here, even very polar, but there is infrequently "freaking out" as a result because there is respect for and recognition of the fact that NONE of us have the same ears, gear, spaces, preferences or aspirations. Of course there are lots of rules of thumb and we lean heavy on that, but it is just so much more enjoyable to be able to kick back and learn/observe/converse. Like being at a swap meet of information rather than a high pressure seminar or something. That's how I picture it anyway.

I'm always amazed the Tascam machines sound as good as they do. Seems like they should have paid a higher sonic price for using the same specs for record and play heads

Yeah, it took me a bit to get over that when I realized that they were the exact same heads on my 48 and 58...I struggled because I thought "couldn't it sound better if the gaps were optimized??" and "what's the point of having the second head??". Well I learned quickly the logical reason behind it as far as calibration, but I can tell you after calibrating my 388 (with one record/reproduce head) and going through the exercise of finding an optimum bias level using the LF modulation method I would have LOVED a second record/reproduce head!! :D

I see a couple things that were drivers behind equalizing the record and reproduce head gaps (making them identical): the need for better sync response for overdub cue mixes and the availability of improved head manufacturing that allowed the compromise to be acceptable for reproduce quality. When was the first machine made that had identical record/reproduce head gaps? I know the Ampex MM-1100 had identical gaps and that was 1972.

What the gear snobs don't want to hear is that the prosumer decks are generally better for home and project studio work, where other gear is also prosumer level, space is limited and everything happens in one room (or maybe in several different places). They play well with unbalanced, consumer level audio, they're smaller and more portable and the transports are quiet, while some pro machines are loud.

This is a huge point...there is a massive practicality aspect to gear that is better suited for the home studio. I have such an affinity for my Ampex MM-1000 but it is NOT ideal for the one-room studio. It is terrifically noisy. I need to get out my sound pressure level meter at some point and measure, but I have yet to figure out just how I'm going to track in there without a massive amount of bleed. Halftracks too...My 3M M-64 is the size of an apartment fridge...the Ampex 440C in the Ampex console is the size of a washing machine...and they too are noisy. Then there's the Tascam BR-20T. Granted the BR-20T was aimed at the broadcast market but it takes up MUCH less space, is whisper quiet and works wonderfully.

Here's something I keep coming back to: Snobbery is often ignorant of an individual's needs and constraints; practicality is irrelevant to the eletist.

Moreover, the gear snobs hate little mixers like my Mackie 1604, but when paired up with a tape machine that works well with consumer levels, a mixer like that can be very clean sounding.

And that's another thing...what two people have the exact same taste?? Yeah I think there are general parameters we strive for but some people like grit or distinct signature in their signal path and others want transparency and that factor is often also left out of the mix (no pun intended) when discussing matters of gear and what you "need" or "should have".

You know what I think? I think a lot of the drive to upgrade components in a piece of gear (like opamps in particular) is in the misguided pursuit for it to sound "better", but the factors that define a "better" opamp are faster slew rate, lower noise and lower distortion. People doing and pushing these mods often are shooting for transparency...for the gear to be invisible. But somebody that thinks they've found the answer to "better" isn't likely to ask you what is "better" to YOU. Some time ago I was all set to start upgrading components on the amp cards on my MM-1000...replacing all the carbon comp resistors with metal or carbon film...get rid of all the tantalum caps and put in "audio grade" 'lytics...replace all the old film caps with new mylar parts, etc...basically gutting the cards. Dumb. Steve Puntolillo steered me away. "Yeah you can do that, and it'll have a cleaner sound to it, but why? Replace the output coupling cap [in the electronics chassis...a real bottleneck in the signal path], calibrate it NAB eq at 15ips and it'll sound like an Ampex." I want it to sound like an Ampex. This is just something to think about. "That [lower-class gear] is for kids...it has TL072's in it." Blah-blah-blah. I will always remember the reaction of the guy that bought my Tascam M-520 from me. He needed a general duty board for his home-based studio. Now this was a good-sized studio with three rooms, some pretty nice gear (a Studer A80 2" 16-track among other bits), and this is a guy that had done a bunch of recording at Fairfax Studios in California through a vintage EMI monster...the owner of that studio and the guy that bought my M-520 did some tracking through it and they were "blown away". What the buyer liked about the M-520 was how it sounded when pushed to its limits. He was after a certain sound, and not that that's all the M-520 is good for, but there's a couple guys I would not expect to praise the M-520, but they loved it and have some pedigree and experience to validate snobbery if they so chose to act in that way. M-520 is full of 072's, 2041's and 4556's...lower class opamps by the standards of many today. Its alllllllll relative.

there is nothing inherently bad or good about unbalanced vs balanced connections

This is completely true.

Balanced audio wasn't designed because it makes things sound "better", it was designed to deal with induced noise in long cable runs.

It was originally developed by the telephone industry. Now THERE are some long cable runs.

The technology was brought into the studio for the same reason...noise, hum, etc. But the bottom line is that if you are not having trouble with noise on an unbalanced connection you aren't going to make a difference by using a balanced interconnect except whatever difference is made by sending the signal through the balancing circuitry. Shifting sands, folks...everybody used to use transformers to balance and unbalance their audio...they imparted a sonic signature on the audio...then transformerless designs come into play..."cleaner"...now the signature of the trafo-based circuitry has some lore...go figure. If you're happy with your gear then enjoy it! If something is missing then mill around with others, discuss, try things, but the solution will be unique to you, your ears, your taste and aspirations...
 
Look. Any and every internet forum is a huge circle jerk, this one included. Gearslutz is there to talk about slutty gear. Of course they are going to say a TSR-8 sucks - the point of that forum to talk about what is the ultimate best. For example they frequently put down the massive passive, which is a $3500 equalizer. This site's focus is on home recording gear, so everyone gets a hardon for tascam stuff. In the end it's really no different from gearslutz.

What really gets my goad about gearslutz is that they'll all get raging boners over some piece of gear that royally sucks ass. you will frequently see those pieces for gear up for sale in their classifieds, but luckily people will buy them rather quickly. Also nobody knows how to actually record they just know about gear.

Anyway don't get all high and mighty because this site is just as bad and is why I basically stopped reading it. (that and the overhaul is hard to look at)

Put differently - there is serious groupthink going on at both sites.

Flame on !!
 
Look. Any and every internet forum is a huge circle jerk, this one included.

Put differently - there is serious groupthink going on at both sites.
Falken, preach it brotha! I actually totally agree. It's very easy to get sucked in to any forum talking about what toys we own. All in good fun though hopefully. :)
 
Look. Any and every internet forum is a huge circle jerk, this one included. Gearslutz is there to talk about slutty gear. Of course they are going to say a TSR-8 sucks - the point of that forum to talk about what is the ultimate best. For example they frequently put down the massive passive, which is a $3500 equalizer. This site's focus is on home recording gear, so everyone gets a hardon for tascam stuff. In the end it's really no different from gearslutz.

Sure, all these types of discussion forums have the potential to be a "huge circle jerk"...my experience is that the difference on this particular forum is that there is a much lower degree of trashing gear on either end of the spectrum; less focus on trashing gear and people and more on discussing gear and analog recording. Just more enjoyable for me personally.

I don't see this forum as the "same" as gearslutz at all. If it was I wouldn't be spending any more time here than I do gearslutz.
 
Look. Any and every internet forum is a huge circle jerk, this one included. Gearslutz is there to talk about slutty gear. Of course they are going to say a TSR-8 sucks - the point of that forum to talk about what is the ultimate best. For example they frequently put down the massive passive, which is a $3500 equalizer. This site's focus is on home recording gear, so everyone gets a hardon for tascam stuff. In the end it's really no different from gearslutz.

What really gets my goad about gearslutz is that they'll all get raging boners over some piece of gear that royally sucks ass. you will frequently see those pieces for gear up for sale in their classifieds, but luckily people will buy them rather quickly. Also nobody knows how to actually record they just know about gear.

Anyway don't get all high and mighty because this site is just as bad and is why I basically stopped reading it. (that and the overhaul is hard to look at)

Put differently - there is serious groupthink going on at both sites.

Flame on !!

I agree with most of what you’re saying about all music sites in general, but… the Analog Only section here is (Was?) always a bit different because there’s a core group of people (Me included) who’ve had extensive hands on experience with both so-called pro and so-called semi-pro equipment. For me that goes back 30+ years now in both commercial studio and home/project studio environments. There are others here too that’ve used a wide range of equipment and have similar or greater experience.

As far as “home recording,” that means different things to different people. To me it means you have a studio in your home. It has nothing to do with pro or non-pro. I tried to explain this to our resident troll… what’s his name… he kept getting banned and coming back with new ID’s. Oh yeah… “acorec” or something like that. He seemed to have this funny idea that because this forum is called “Home Recording” it must somehow be inferior to something like “Pro Sound Web.” Ya see, because Pro sound Web has the word “Pro” in it so it must be professional… naturally. Ehem. :facepalm:

Well, I have no horse in this race. I’m not a founding member of this site or anything and I don’t get paid anything for all this free consulting I do. Regardless of experience we all find a place we like to hang out and participate. Probably what’s funniest thing of all to me is I have for years and still do regularly have information taken from my posts here in copy & paste fashion, and see them on other so-called pro sites. The information started right here with my original posts with information from my background not previously found anywhere on the web until I posted it in this Analog Only forum. I’m just sayin’.

As I said to our former resident troll many years ago… this isn’t like the old Soviet Union where we’re assigned a music forum. We can come and go as we please and participate on any site. I don't participate as much as I used to on web forums in general, but there's always been maybe two music sites at most I do participate to any great degree, including this one. There are others I could, like tape-op, but why have to repeat everything somewhere else. People can come here if they want my advice… and then steal my words and post them as their own like they always have. ;)

And yes this new design hurts my eyes, which is also a reason I don't hang out here as much or as long when I do.
 
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Hi Beck good to hear from you again. I first came here looking to learn how to buy, use, and operate a reel to reel and you helped me out many years ago back then. I really appreciate all you have done. I don't blame you for hating to repeat stuff over and over in posts. But you have created an archive here that is quite valueable, as these skills are likely to get more and more rare over time.

By the way I wasn't talking about just music sites, it seems that almost every forum on the internet is populated with this same phenomenon in one way or another. Same with the word stealing. I just don't get that at all.....
 
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Well, Gearslutz is there to talk about slutty gear. Of course they are going to say a TSR-8 sucks - the point of that forum to talk about what is the ultimate best. For example they frequently put down the massive passive, which is a $3500 equalizer. This site's focus is on home recording gear, so there you go.

:D:D:D
 
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I can't really speak to the whole site, because the only forum I visit here is this one.

What I continue to see, looking at the threads, is mostly people coming here for help in doing something or getting stuff to work and other people helping them. Also a fair amount of people who know what they are doing sharing what they are up to, with others looking over their (virtual) shoulder.

I have posted some hundreds of posts on GS over the years, but I'm less inclined to go there lately, because I mainly take time to do online stuff to help people, and I'm really not that relevant on GS, which I view as a good thing. I don't want spend or encourage spending on something that isn't really helpful and necessary, just for the sake of showing what I can spend. Actually, I'd prefer to have absolutely as little as possible, provided I can do what I want musically.

This site (and the Ampex list, where I've met several patient, helpful experts over the years) are the ones that seem more practically focused on the kind of recording I do and can help others with.

Cheers,

Otto
 
Yeah, here (and throughout this thread when I say "here" I mean this specific Analog Only forum...) and the recordist.com Ampex List are pretty much it for me.
 
I don't think I have an account at GS and couldn't seem to get AK to give me one. However, I do find myself reading a lot of the posts at GS, (stuff like, "the ZYK 5000 has a Fung Swing clone of the Bundesfunken XL77 which is soldered in Shanghai but assembled in Winnepeg..... It has a sharp rolloff at 10kHz, but if you go over to groupdiy they'll tell you how to remove C57 and change that.....")
 
, (stuff like, "the ZYK 5000 has a Fung Swing clone of the Bundesfunken XL77 which is soldered in Shanghai but assembled in Winnepeg..... It has a sharp rolloff at 10kHz, but if you go over to groupdiy they'll tell you how to remove C57 and change that.....")

I'm sold! Where can I get one? !!!!!
 
This site (and the Ampex list, where I've met several patient, helpful experts over the years)

Otto

The List has been pretty busy lately. :D Every time I check my email I've got about 20 more.
 
99% of teh recordists are controlled by 1% of teh slutz? :drunk:
 
So that answers the original question of this thread; " what is the deal"?
 
If you want to actually answer the question....the answer is, the medium should be appropriate for the music. The OP asks why Chris Brown can't record on a TSR-8, because isn't music art? He points to Bruce Springsteen and Ween using 4 tracks, and Lil John using pro tools. This should be obvious in itself, that you are looking at very different core audiences here. One artist requires super clean, almost unnatural cleanness of sound. The other requires sweetness and character of tone, or a more "creative" sound, in the case of ween. I don't even want to get into hip hop versus rap but my point is that no, if Liil John walks in you are not going to hook him up to a TSR-8. For soooo many reasons, one of them tone, the other that you need to overdub people like that FAST. you can't be rewinding when they are in the vocal booth and hot. you have to click something in pro fools and just go again. and be able to comp that vocal take FAST. maybe do 10 vocal takes and comp them to 1, then do 10 more and comp a background vocal. You can't expect Lil John to be punching in for "art's sake". Come on. Recording with tape is a labor of love.
 
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