what this forum's good for Pt. 2

  • Thread starter Thread starter dobro
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dobro said:
[B So what's the irritation about? [/B]
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I'll give my 2 cents where I think the "irritation" may be sensed. First off, I think I have a playback system (albeit old) that may rival the ace system you described in your first post. I am not itimately familiar with the equipment you describe, but I am with mine...which consists of some URIE 813 time aligns, JBL 4311 control monitors, Auratone 5C cubes ...powered by Crown amps. Not the best, but certainly not lousy shit either. I also believe there are others in the clinic that also have "quality" systems and the ears and knowledge of their systems to also "know" what they are hearing. I personally had to chuckle when you mentioned that ....
"Finally, I think you can't count on this forum to spot stuff you've fluffed. Again, I'm not complaining - I'm trying to understand how this place works so I can have a good time with it - but I think this place often isn't so much an mp3 clinic as an mp3 radio station."
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I think there was an implication that you needed the "ace" system to hear the flaws, and that nobody around here was in that catagory...which couldn't be further from the truth. Additionally, I suppose some could take it as a negative comment on their abilities to hear stuff (unlike you could on an "ace system")
2ndly...I also chuckled as it seems you seem to think there is a "right" and a wrong with your vocal levels and that others (including myself) seem to think other wise. Sounds like personal preference to me in YOUR situation, and that level adjustments of 1-1.5 dB is pretty small really in the scope of things. Many think the levels SHOULD have a vocal up mix in your music, while possibly others (maybe yourself included) might think it needs 'blending' in more with the music. There were good reasons for both camps...thus dispelling the "correct" level as being the ONLY correct level.

I agree with some that their is a lot of "back patting" and "atta boys" around here, but most of it seems to stem to avoid being so negative in their posts. I tend to tell it like it is as most would know. However, there are a lot of holes in your "argument" about/whether the vocals are wrong, the clinic is NOT a place for "correct critique", and so on. Oh well...enuff for now... I don't feel like going any further with this
;)
 
dobro said:
So what's the irritation about?
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Fair enough....I went back and reread your and my posts and clearly I came across as angry and I wasn't really.
I do think that when you made the comment about not expecting people to listen closely enough to catch those things; that implies that we don't bother to listen hard and I guess that's what I was reacting to. Didn't mean to read more into it than was meant.
 
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Lt. Bob said:
I do think that when you made the comment about not expecting people to listen closely enough to catch those things; that implies that we don't bother to listen hard and I guess that's what I was reacting to. Didn't mean to read more into it than was meant.
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oops....maybe two people had the same reaction...:rolleyes:
 
I suppose there are three levels upon which a tune can be considered:

1) Performance
2) Composition
3) Mix

I tend to go for 1 & 2 and don't worry unduly about 3.

Your kilometerage may vary. :)

I always listen to MP3s on headphones (Sennheiser - I don't know the model number 'cause I'm at work) and they do the job for me.

I have a top flight pair of monitors in my living room - Spendor BC1's - powerd by an Onkyo mini hi-fi system. I could save the MP3s to mini disc and have a listen to them in all their natural glory thundering out of the BC1's because they are a darned sight more revealing than my crappy Chinese PC speakers.

I could tote my portable Sony mini-disc player into the living room and have the MP3s blasting out of my Spendor LS3/5A bookshelf speakers powered by my Technics amp. However I choose not to.

Since I do all of my composing on the PC using the Sennheisers, I prefer to listen using the same medium. This gives me a reference.

I think that, at the end of the day, you can't take into account every possible listening permutation, so you work with what you've got.

--
BluesMeister
 
dobro said:


You don't have to believe my report if you don't want to. So what's the irritation about?
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I believe you honey..., and I`m not irritated.. :)

I am sure though, that you listened to your stuff probably more intensely because the playback system you heard was more refined than what you have been accustomed too, and you listened with a metal template of what you would like to hear. The vocals just simply exceeded the template of what you were expecting.
For me being the "needing a planter`s horn for a hearing aid" guy, the vocals didnt exceed my mental template. No big deal...
 
dobro--This is just my opinion, but I don't think there is a DB chart that defines when a vocal is sitting right. Depends on the song and on the intention of the artist. I have my own standards, but it really depends on the kind of song and the style, etc. Just because some commercial mixes position a vocal at a certain level doesn't mean that its somehow the standard. Generally, I hate buried vocals, but in certain rock tunes, it really works. In some country mixes (Alan Jackson, Randy Travis, for example) the vocals are so loud its unbelieveable--lol!--but it WORKS in those records.

In your tracks that I have heard--and I'm still listening to 'Rain', getting familiar with it, BTW--I think your vocals are right where they should be. I recall one tune where I thought a couple of lines could be brought UP a little. Maybe on a $10,000 syestem they do poke through too much, but as you know, people listen to music on car stereos, walkmans, boom boxes, computer speakers and on home stereo systems. Ideally, a great mix should sound great on all those systems--and should take precedence over the high dollar jobs as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather have five audiophiles mad at me than 200,000 record buyers who listen on their computer speakers.

In the end, its what the artist wants, no doubt. I'm all for breaking the rules to create music and mixes that sound different from the norm. Thats what making unique records is all about. If you think they are too loud on the $10,000 dollar system, then mix for that I guess. Its important to follow your own vision and I'm not putting up an argument against that or anything. I've always thought your vocals were placed pretty right on. Whatever you've been doing works for me and I don't consider myself a totally untrained ear. All I am saying is that there are other options besides the commercial mixes. Also, different commercial mixes vary wildly. How is anybody gonna be objective about something so subjective in the first place? I bet ten pro mixers would give you ten different mixes of your own stuff. Please yourself!:D
 
crawdad said:
dobro--This is just my opinion, but I don't think there is a DB chart that defines when a vocal is sitting right. Depends on the song and on the intention of the artist.
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Here's my opinion. There is no such thing as a vocal that is too loud.

The end
 
chrisharris said:
Here's my opinion. There is no such thing as a vocal that is too loud.

The end
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For example, lmao...those fuzzy quiet looking parts in the pic, that's all the guitars and drums and pianos and shit.

THE HUGE BRICK-LIKE projections jutting out of the mix like 2x4's sticking out of a pillow would be the vocal.

THE VOCALS ARE NOT TOO LOUD :D
 

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Yeah, I took your advice and cut the volume on the vocal on that one too. But that one isn't on the album I'm talking about. So I went back and looked at five or six of the threads for songs from the album I'm talking about, and no, I didn't find any of your comments containing references to the vocal levels in those songs. But if you *did* mention it in a thread I haven't dug up yet, then congratulations!
 
Dobro, no matter what you feel the clinic is for we will continue to use it in as many ways as there are members of this BBS.

I feel it is not every single person's job to give the best mix advice they can but sometimes just to give a general impression from a first listen point of veiw.
To me that is as important as getting accurate mix advice. Isn't 'proper' a subjective term when it comes to mixes anyhow?


I like the little "hell yeah" and "rockin" comments.


Long live radio mp3 clinic!
 
I fuckin' hate vocals.

Everybody stop singing and play some guitar.
 
Am I too late for the hot dogs???





:p



WATYF


(Sluice.. I gotta get around to listening to your latest tune... I've been a little busy lately... but I'll be all over that china boy in a day or two. :D)
 
DimChandeliers said:
I'll say it again; there should be another room for people who are looking for comments other than mixing ones.
The songwriters room would be perfect if you're looking for comments on the song itself, but nobody ever posts in there.
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I’ll agree with that. I post my stuff here and in the Songwriters forum. My last two posts over there have had response from only two folks. One person responded to both and the other to just one (and I do appreciate their responses – you know who you are ;)). Sad really. I’ve gotten more songwriting education here than there and I’m not crass enough to think I don’t need some edumucation :D.

If the songwriter forum was more active, I’d probably post scratch tracks there for feedback on the song before I did a full on production and then post the finished (or near finished) result here for mixing critique. As things stand now…I use this place for both. Plus, I’m still just figuring out how to get a good acoustic guitar & vocal tone recorded, so the scratch track served a great purpose for me here for that reason as well.
 
"Dobro, no matter what you feel the clinic is for we will continue to use it in as many ways as there are members of this BBS."

Jake - yeah, of course. And I want all those different needs and uses to continue, I'm not being prescriptive. But let's see if you can get your head around this idea: when I called this thread 'what this forum's good for', I was focussing on the forum in its capacity to help a poster get a good mix. I wasn't suggesting at all that the mp3 clinic shouldn't do all those other things - give support, critique the song or the arrangement, provide an online venue for regulars to meet and chat - all that's good, and I'm happy with that. But how effective is this forum in helping you improve your mix? I'm finding that it ranges anywhere from useful to really useful, but also that it misses things sometimes. I'm trying to learn its capacities and limits, the same way I learn the capacities and limits of my guitar - there are some things it will do, and there are some things it won't do. But I'm keeping the guitar, because I like what it does. And I think the forum here is a pretty cool place too. And I think I've got a better idea how it can help me too.

Look, *I'm* responsible for my mixes, nobody else. If I get help here, that's wonderful, that's gravy. That's why I was so careful to point out in the first post that I wasn't complaining about anything. Didn't work, though. LOL
 
I don't know if I have enough head for that dobro.

I hear ya it just sounds a lot like complaints to me.

Who cares if someone in nebraska listening on some hasbro computer speakers can't tell what needs to be adjusted in my low end? I will wait for the guy with the great system to fill me in or maybe I'll never get the hint.

I find this clinic useful to the extreme on many levels.

The only thing I don't like is when people post non-music threads here.......try to wrap your head around that will ya?
 
"I find this clinic useful to the extreme on many levels."

Me too.

"The only thing I don't like is when people post non-music threads here.......try to wrap your head around that will ya?"

Okay, wrapping head around it now... Sorry you don't like this thread, Jake.
 
Actually, the thread got kinda interesting. A lot of different views on the subject and a better understanding of how different people use and perceive this site. It never hurts to shake things up and get people to thinking. ;)
 
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