What do commercial artists use?

i wish someone would have told kanye west that

Sillyhat said:
Look buddy, if you are so convinced that you can make top flight stuff with nothing and we have established that there are no secrets, you must be the problem. If you don't have the ear or the understanding of your equipment that you need to get what you want out of it, it won't work for you.
Some people are just rappers (singers, guitar players, drummers, whatever) some people are just engineers. It's not a big deal, if you are good at rapping, rap. Let someone else worry about making you sound good.


Just for the record. so as not to cause any confusion; I have SOMETHING. And the little something i DO have, im being told by people from here, to the "experts" at the stores and exclusive dealerships; and even from this exact site/forum, that i have some pretty good stuff. No doubt its not "top-flight", by a long shot, im sure. But so many are telling me, Oh. You should be able to get some damn good sound out of what you got. And others, like yourself tellin me i need to get this higher priced stuff that half the damn site can afford.

Without sounding conceited: I DO have "that" ear. Even though i rap. I have that ear. That's why *I* can hear this difference, and SOOO MANY OTHERS cant. From other rappers, to producers, to these engineers around here, that have been to school, and interned at huge, elaborate, professional facilities. Even some of these million dollar lables cand say they hear a difference in a Def Jam recording, and a successful independendent lables' recording. from the vocal procedure i speak so highly of; to the overall "togetherness" and quality of the mix, as every sound compliments the others.

And like i said in the beginning; I wish Kanye West was told that, (About if you're a rapper, rap.) before he wrote, produced, and arranged his successful, multi-platinum sophomore effort. I might have just thrown you a curve ball, if you have no idea who Kanye West might be, huh? Well how about Prince. If you know; How many times have you seen the "composed, produced, arranged, and performed by" on one of his many albums. He recorded Sign Of The Times, in under 2 months; i think something like 18 or 22 songs strong, ALL BY HIMSELF!!! (There goes that "100 hour per song theory") Granted, he had a few friends come in before the last takes, and help him out a little bit, but majority of that album was done from birth to release, by Prince. How about Elton John, or Babyface? P. Diddy (Puffy)? And the list could go on. Of artisits, who, from conception to final mixdown and mastering, did a song or a project by themselves. And if i may say, were pretty damn successful doing it. And it SOUNDED GOOD! Kanye=3 million and counting. Prince(Sign Of The Times)=26 million and counting!(STILL sellin'!) etc and so on.

Even Eminem feels more comfortable now behind the boards for his songs, than an engineer; since, NOW, he knows what they've been doing all this time. And as he said, "Its not hard to apply, once youve been shown how its done". And if i HAD thew money, and an experienced engineer that could give my vocals, and my final product, THAT pristine sound quality for todays hip-hop music; I would!!! Because this here is frustrating, and taking time away from the point of why im even ON this site in the first place. BECAUSE I WANT TO LEARN THIS STUFF!!! Hoping that the time and effort to BE on this site asking all these dumb-ass questions would weigh out in knowledge on the FINALIZING processes of making good music, that SOUNDS good.
 
Man, your ranting is quickly approaching meaningless drabble....
Do you have a point to make or a question to ask or do you just want to keep complaining to everybody about bullshit like this?
It boils down to this in my eyes: If you really want to know something, ask specific questions. If you're not ready to ask specific questions, or are not knowledgable enough to ask specific questions, then you can't expect specific answers. That fact should serve as proof that you just need to put in the time and gain real experience just like everybody else. When you act like you expect specific answers to these vague, generalized questions you make people think you're a joke. Think about it...You keep saying that you have these gifts like "great ears" and all of this fundamental knowledge. Well, if they were really that great you'd figure all of this stuff out on your own because "good ears" are where it's at! It really is as simple as that. You can bitch and moan about that comment all you want but it's still the truth.
Another thing that is annoying as hell....you keep complaining that everybody is taking you so literally, why are you taking every detail that everybody else says so literally? The 100 hour a song thing was clearly just to demonstrate "unlimited time". Someone who is highly skilled obviously won't need 100 hours. You're the one who's missing the point here.
And as far as the big money equipment.....Yes, alot of the quality does have something to do with the gear. If that wasn't true those guys wouldn't have it. That was my point! You are seeming to disregard that in some of your posting. Just because you turn around and post a disclaimer doesn't mean that everything else you posted that is contradictory to that is dissolved. If you don't know what any of that gear is or does then YOU DO HAVE A PROBLEM AS AN ENGINEER! Start learning!
Here's another analogy for you. You seem to be able to accept the fact that "you can't get a Neuman sound out of a kareoke mic". Well that same philosophy is applicable to engineers. Just like a killer mic will bring out the best in something, a knowledgable engineer will have the same effect. A knowledgable engineer will know what to do to make that sound happen. You need to be more concerned with becoming a better engineer who knows and understands the ins and outs of every piece of gear, every effect, and every technique in order to truly use them effectively. When you get to that point, you can ask somebody a specific question, and somebody can probably give you a specific answer. Until then you're wasting your time. Baby steps!
 
Sire,

For a guy who has "The Truth" as his signature, you sure have no respect for it when it slaps you in the face. The Truth has no value to those who ignore it.

You've said it yourself in a couple of different posts in the past couple of days; everyone is giving you the same basic answer but no one is giving you the answer you want. In other words - regardless of our years of experience as actual engineers versus yours as an artst - we are all wrong, every one of us.The "right" answer is the one you want to be right.

It doesn't matter what forum you go to, Sire, a willingness to accept The Truth for what it is instead of what you would like it to be is probably the best place to start; for without that you'll get nowhere real fast.

G.
 
LordSire said:
Just for the record. so as not to cause any confusion; I have SOMETHING. And the little something i DO have, im being told by people from here, to the "experts" at the stores and exclusive dealerships; and even from this exact site/forum, that i have some pretty good stuff.

Without sounding conceited: I DO have "that" ear. .
If you have the equipment and the ear, what's the problem?

LordSire said:
And like i said in the beginning; I wish Kanye West was told that, (About if you're a rapper, rap.) before he wrote, produced, and arranged his successful, multi-platinum sophomore effort. Well how about Prince.
I wasn't trying to keep you down or tell you that you should only rap, I was pointing out that you don't have to be great at all aspects of the process. Some peopl can play guitar, some people can play drums, other people can play both. Some people have very specific talents, others can do a bunch of things well. If you are a person with more specific talents, it might be a better use of your time to hone those talents and leave things that are tougher for you to others. There is nothing wrong with that. Before you make it big, you will need the help of other people, like promotions people, stylists, video production people, mastering engineers...etc. If you insisted on mastering all of those skills, you would be an old man by the time you were any good at all of them.
 
Good vibrations, Bad vibrations it’s all about vibrations!! You can get "that" sound by replacng the stock knobs on your equipment. How can this make a difference??? Well, hearing is believing as we always say. The sound becomes much more open and free flowing with a nice improvement in resolution. Dynamics are better and overall naturalness is improved. Micro vibrations created by the volume pots and knobs find their way into the delicate signal path and cause degradation (Bad vibrations equal bad sound).

I recommend these knobs, they have made a signifigant improvement in getting "that" sound.

http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/M...OB_C37_C&Category_Code=VOLUME&Product_Count=2
 
Cloneboy Studio said:
In my opinion the biggest advantages they have over average joes are (in order of importance):

1.) the *TIME* to get it right (when was the last time you spent 100 hours recording a single song?)

2.) the *TALENT* in the first place (let's face it, not everyone has it)

3.) *QUALITY* gear, and lots of it--more choices means you can match equipment to what you are trying to achieve (important, but not near as important as 1 and 2)

4.) the ability to have a proper workspace; i.e. no interruption closed sessions (you don't think you're actually gonna get the best quality work in that dank, smelly basement do you?)

5.) the ability to hire top producers, song writers, musicians and so forth (it's always a plus to have guys like Banner writing your beats, while being produced by Rick Rubin, and engineered by Nile Rogers)

I agree 100% with your list. I've a feeling there are too many people disregarding # 2 in your list and trying to make up for it with lots of costly and superfluous gear in your home studio isn't gonna help that. :(
Some people obviousyl think you can purchase talent. Let's face it, some people (the majority of people?) just don't have it. Need to put big stickies in each section reminding newbies (and some oldies) of this and not to waste time and money on gear, etc. unless they have #2. I also feel that a lot of people requesting critiques of their songs by other members are not getting enough negative feedback, which is misleading in many cases.
 
Those with talent - either inherant or learned - don't even need the gear...to a degree. Yes, crap gear will limit the sound, of course. But someone who knows what they're doing can get a far better mix with a 57 and a Bheringer than a rookie witha U47 and a Neve can.

And they don't do it with recipe tricks or magician's secrets. They do it with an understanding of how things work and how those workings actually affect the sound. They then apply that knowledge as needed using technique. What is that technique?

It's called biofeedback.

Biofeedback in this instance means a loop in the total signal chain:


sound --> ear --> brain --> hands --> gear --> sound [repeat as necessary]


Pifdy Sent, Kanye West, Diddy, Dre and Eminem do NOT work from recipes. They make it look as easy as a recipe because they have internalized the biofeedback process to become second-nature to them. They have done that by hanging in the studio as a full-time job and then some, by wathcing and learning from experienced engineers and/or by buying their own gear and living, breathing, eating and sleeping with it.

There are no Cliff Notes that make this easy. Yes it's easy for practically anyone to make to make an Ok recording. But making it sound great is a whole 'nother ball of wax altogether. It requires that every link in the biofeedback chain above be of top quality. And the only way to get the brain part of it to top quality is to study, to practice, to ask questions of the more experienced, and to embrace the answers they give with an open mind. And then study and practice some more.

If one is not willing to do the work they did, one is not going to acheive their goal of sounding like them.

G.
 
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SouthSIDE Glen said:
Those with talent - either inherant or learned - don't even need the gear...to a degree. Yes, crap gear will limit the sound, of course. But someone who knows what they're doing can get a far better mix with a 57 and a Bheringer than a rookie witha U47 and a Neve can.

And they don't do it with recipe tricks or magician's secrets. They do it with an understanding of how things work and how those workings actually affect the sound. They then apply that knowledge as needed using technique. What is that technique?

It's called biofeedback.

Biofeedback in this instance means a loop in the total signal chain:


sound --> ear --> brain --> hands --> gear --> sound [repeat as necessary]


Pifdy Sent, Kanye West, Diddy, Dre and Eminem do NOT work from recipes. They make it look as easy as a recipe because they have internalized the biofeedback process to become second-nature to them. They have done that by hanging in the studio as a full-time job and then some, by wathcing and learning from experienced engineers and/or by buying their own gear and living, breathing, eating and sleeping with it.

There are no Cliff Notes that make this easy. Yes it's easy for practically anyone to make to make an Ok recording. But making it sound great is a whole 'nother ball of wax altogether. It requires that every link in the biofeedback chain above be of top quality. And the only way to get the brain part of it to top quality is to study, to practice, to ask questions of the more experienced, and to embrace the answers they give with an open mind. And then study and practice some more.

If one is not willing to do the work they did, one is not going to acheive their goal of sounding like them.

G.

Sort of an apprenticeship where everything is handed down from engineer (father) to artist (son). (I'm really stretchin' it :p)
 
it takes years to learn how to mix and record well. instrumentation of the track is really important; i.e. you cant have too many frequencies fighting each other. learn how to use a compressor properly, not just stick it in the chain because it seems like the thing to do. dont use shitty reverb. learn how to use low/high pass filters on drums and bass parts. try to find a decent snare sound. get the thing professionally mastered. the list goes on forever just keep at it.
 
i agree with you all, in a way

metalhead, you put that last post very well, i must say. But since day one, i've had to make my threadz longer, because i DID ask specifically at first. I thought i was having a problem getting certain major points across. Because almost everyone wanted to go into details about things like gear, ear, experience, talent, and time. So i felt the need to eliminate those things needing to be listed, because i have phathomed these things before.

My original question still llays on the table. I apologize about my drivel and ranting. And i re-read my posts, and, yes. They are entirely tooo long, i agree. Ill do what i can to capsize my threads, and hopefully try to get a meaning across sooner.

The talent aspect to this post is definitely relevant for the ENGINEER. Because its HIS talent that is being tested, used and applied to this specific effect on rappers vocals. Like everyone tells me:.....LISTEN. THAT is ALL you have to do in this case. There is a distinct "double" effect on rappers vocals, and i asked for what it is, not a long list of speculations, or " i THINK it's this".

Replies of all nature were appreciated: But people wanted to answer with things like talent. You can't acquire that specific "doubled" effect, because the artist is extremely talented. I, MYSELF, have come to figure out through trial and error, that NONE of the steps prior to mixing, has ANYTHING to do with that effect. The most talented rapper in the world can't split his vocal chords, and give you TWO versions of a simulated voice.(We all know better) And if i find out thats the deal, I'm giving up.

Gear and the like MAY have something to do with this effect on the vocs. But if it's just a turn of an eq knob, than isnt eq, is eq, is eq? If I have a mixer with highs, mids and los on my eq setup; and that's all the "professionals" are using (those 3 eq knobs) to acquire this fullness, than that would be all i have to do: right? I may not JUMP right on it and perform what's needed, but as youve all stated, "playing" with it will, sooner or later. I know this is not the deal. Im just putting it in hypothetical terms.

Thats why i never wanted to give myself credit on here, about what ive been told, and also believe, as far as having the "ear", or the talent, or experience, etc. I dont want people to get the wrong idea. Some poor fella; egotistical beyond belief about possessing certain skills, who really has no skills at all. I just wanted to eliminate the need for anyone else to feel they have to go over the immediates, or the basics of recording, and drifting away from the point at hand, with a google of detail about info i dont need. Either dont need right now, or already have an understanding for. Which of course, as i feared, has been done numerous times. I'm not stubborn, bull-headed, or a difficult person to communicate with. Like i said, im soaking up everything told to me. But just as i, it seems a lot of other people began to rant when replying or answering, and it becomes contagious. My bad.

Prayerfully; this will be the conclusion of the "never-ending" threads. (WHEW!)
And i will be able to stick to the point at hand. But i'll need help from you guys for that, as well.
 
my bad artist

I just totally twisted and somewhat "took over" your original posted question, didnt I? I apologize.
 
LordSire said:
There is a distinct "double" effect on rappers vocals, and i asked for what it is, not a long list of speculations, or " i THINK it's this".

Well, the only way you're going to get anything but a list of speculations, is to ask an engineer that has achieved the very effect that you're describing. That seems like a pretty realistic assumption to me.

You sound as if you have explored every avenue to achieve this to no avail....Have you? What methods have you considered for achieving that "doubled" effect? As I've stated before, I obviously don't do hip-hop but I could of course start spewing out ideas for you but it would still be that "speculation" that you are not so fond of.
 
nothing personal

47ronin said:
it takes years to learn how to mix and record well. instrumentation of the track is really important; i.e. you cant have too many frequencies fighting each other. learn how to use a compressor properly, not just stick it in the chain because it seems like the thing to do. dont use shitty reverb. learn how to use low/high pass filters on drums and bass parts. try to find a decent snare sound. get the thing professionally mastered. the list goes on forever just keep at it.


But this is a good idea of what im talking about. All those things said ronin, are extremely important, no doubt. But I dont think that ANY of the things listed have any thing to do with the sound of this "chorus" effect on rappers' lead vocals. And for the record; What do you consider "shitty" reverb for a rappers vocals? Is that basically, for us, too MUCH reverb? Because ive heard rock artists (and other genres) use an awful lot of reverb in their vocals. Very platey and flangey as the verses and stuff trail off. As if they were in some sort of metallic echo chamber, or sewer or something.
 
hmmmm?

tamky said:
Sort of an apprenticeship where everything is handed down from engineer (father) to artist (son). (I'm really stretchin' it :p)


That could be pertinent when you speak of a relationship such as Dr. Dre's and Eminem's. Contrary to popular belief, Dre touches his board just as much as a hired or lable-signed engineer on any given project that he's dealing with.
 
LordSire said:
My original question still llays on the table. There is a distinct "double" effect on rappers vocals, and i asked for what it is, not a long list of speculations, or " i THINK it's this".

In post #33 of this thread, I told you specifically what the effect was, how it's achieved, and where to go to see some examples. This is what we did on the rap albums I recorded, and this is how it's done on EVERY rap album I've ever heard. If the rapper doesn't have a "posse" with him/her, they go back and double phrases by using another track.

Replies of all nature were appreciated: But people wanted to answer with things like talent. You can't acquire that specific "doubled" effect, because the artist is extremely talented. I, MYSELF, have come to figure out through trial and error, that NONE of the steps prior to mixing, has ANYTHING to do with that effect. The most talented rapper in the world can't split his vocal chords, and give you TWO versions of a simulated voice.(We all know better) And if i find out thats the deal, I'm giving up.

See my answer above.

Gear and the like MAY have something to do with this effect on the vocs. But if it's just a turn of an eq knob, than isnt eq, is eq, is eq? If I have a mixer with highs, mids and los on my eq setup; and that's all the "professionals" are using (those 3 eq knobs) to acquire this fullness, than that would be all i have to do: right?

No, "professionals use very sophiticated parametric eq's to get that sound. It's not simply a box with hi's, mid's and lo's.
 
The effect I think you are talking about is called a vocal spreader. It is a stereo pitch shifter set for 15 cents up on one side and 15 cents down on the other with a pre delay of somewhere around 15ms on one side and 30ms on the other. The shorter predelay goes on the higher pitched side. Mix that in with the dry vocal and your done.
 
LordSire said:
There is a distinct "double" effect on rappers vocals, and i asked for what it is, not a long list of speculations, or " i THINK it's this".
Someone has said "talking about music is like dancing about architecture". It seems you're having difficulty describing the "distinct double effect" and are not satisfied with the answers given, including the one by Harvey Gerst. Well, then why don't you post some short clips from various artists that shows that effect you're after, and ask: "Hear that doubling at 2:36? How do you do that?"

Seems to me that would be the only way to cut through all this ambiguity. Don't post the whole tune for copyright reasons obviously, but a short 15-20 second clip should suffice, no?
 
Farview said:
The effect I think you are talking about is called a vocal spreader. It is a stereo pitch shifter set for 15 cents up on one side and 15 cents down on the other with a pre delay of somewhere around 15ms on one side and 30ms on the other. The shorter predelay goes on the higher pitched side. Mix that in with the dry vocal and your done.
I was actually thinking along those lines myself, although I'd still like to hear a clip to be sure that that's what LordSire's talking about.
 
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