What do commercial artists use?

Middleman said:
Blurry but clear enough. Wow, that's some nice iron in those racks.

I'm thinking that's an SSL console but I can't tell which model, in the blurry images it almost looks like a NEVE. Anybody know?

Is there a compressor or preamp made that is not represented here? GML, Neve, DBX, LA2A, 1176s, Joe Meek, Avalon, Distressor. This looks like the stock room at Mercenary Audio.
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The console is an SSL 9000J....
 
yea dude, I "hear" it.

its the room.

I was in circuit city the other day, and destiny's child was blaring from a stereo.

Normally I can't stand that crap. just my opinion. I don't like pop music. but beyonce's voice was just amazing. her voice itself wasn't what interested me, but the *sound* of it. it was like it was coming out of thin air. like she was in the room with me. "what the hell!" I thought "how the hell do they do that". and I kept listening.

And I came to the conclusion that its the room. Sure, some nice preamps and compressors are going to make it 'sparkle'. sparkle you can buy for a few grand. but that nice gear by itself isn't going to make the vocal jump out of the stereo. the ambience of the recording has to be engineered to make that happen. notice the size of dr. dre's room in those pictures. and the height of the ceilings and what the floor is made out of.

now,

I haven't released a hit either. so I could be totally wrong. But this is the current avenue I am pursuing. and I have been asking myself the same questions as you for a while now. hope this helps.
 
and you know what?

everytime i really get into this question, my post is almost always the LAST thread. Maybe that has to do with, i guess, not being able to explain it. I can just HEAR it, and it drvies me nuts, because, not even the local artists themselves HEAR this, to me, noticable difference in their vocs, and a national, "signed" artists vocals.(50 cent, jadakiss, nas, ludacris, etc and so on) 4 different "camps", probably different facilities, with different or even SAME gear, 9 times outta' 10, 4 different engineers. Yet ALL the same quality, width, and characteristics on vocals. That "double" effect. That "fattener"


AH HA! My friend just hip me on to a problem in my explanation that might help! Im totally aware of that second vocal take that only comes in towards the END of every sentence or line, Not the one that gives vocals in hip hop that energy and motion; not that double effect. Because if you turned off that vocal track, it would still have a SIMULTANEOUS effect that would be just under the lead vocal. And I've turned and played with every eq knob and parameter in my cool edit. And chorus gives off a "ringy, flangy" effect that is very undesirable, and definitely not the same effect im referring to. Reverb seems even twice as bad as the chorus for platey after-effects. And delay is just that. ITS DRIVING ME BANANAS!
 
WOW! That was FAST!

I was just posting that last thread, because i'm use to having to come back the next day and "check" my last post. Wasn't expecting such a fast reply. Merry X-mas, Falk. And ALL "bbs-ers".

And for the record; I hate a lot of this garbage, too. But it's what i love. Talk about a twisted relationship!
 
Nawww. It seems too far off

Gotta' be more than the room?! Ive SEEN studios here in my city with similar specs, as far as size and materials; truthfully. Because these guys were doing just that. trying to emulate, or "clone" the "big dawgz" set-up and gear, because they had the money. But EVERYTHING coming out of those particular "camps", from rap to r&b, was nowhere identical to the major players; even though they did a damn good job at copying the set-ups.


Just like you said; The aural quality is astonishing. Sounds like their RIGHT THERE! No matter which way you turn, it always sounds like vocals are all around you! I dont know how good or bad my monitors rate on a comparison scale; but i use a pair of Alesis M1's, and if i put in 50 cent's latest album, i can all but smell that dudes breath coming out of those monitors; put in a local cd, or listen to some of my stuff, no comparison, WHAT-SO-EVER! Not even close! The room? You think all of that is just the room? That's kinda hard to digest there, Falk.
 
LordSire said:
no one seems to actually "hear" what i'm tryng to explain. I'm sorry, i'm about to go cry again and go to sleep.
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I know exactly what your saying and I get frustrated because no one hears that when I say it. I talk to local producers and they always have some simple stupid response like... Oh thats because they got the best equiptment... yeah i aggree but i believe we've established that the best equiptment without a skill engineer doesnt do much for "that sound"....

I don't know how its done myself.... I hear so much more now with my new m-audio bx8's.... im even more baffled!

I just don't know... It's a mystery that won't be easily discovered I don't think. And if it is some amaizing engineer tricks I doubt anyones going to share that stuff... Thats how Dre, and all the rest stay on top?
 
finally! Someone who agrees.

You know what? There is a very interesting thread i read when i first stumbled upon this site. I actually believe it's the very first thread i read. It might be exactly what got me hooked in the first place. Even though it didnt do much for an "answer" to the question, so to say; it sparked the argumentative side of me. I cant remember exactly WHO posted it, but that guy couldnt get more precise with a description, or an example to describe what he was talkin about. And yet still, NOTHIN". (I'll check after i post this to see who and when; cuzz it was a few months old.)


He asked about certain "presets" that top-notch engineers use to start off with for mixing. He got ridiculed, flamed, and whatever else you wanna' call it, for asking it. EVERYONE answered with pretty much the same thing. "It's LISTENING, and EARS, and all this other stuff, that caters to an individuals specific tastes and opinions, BUT NEVER ANSWERED THE PERSON'S QUESTION. I think it had like 60 or more threadz on it, too, so it was a pretty popular post.

So this person, being a chef, i guess; goes into a detailed example of, if someone asked him how to cook a particular dish, he would give them the immediates(cooking temps, type of dish to use, ingredients, etc.). Then agreed: Yes. You would, in preperation, season to taste the suitor; but if asked to make it taste like how HIS tasted, he would walk them through from beginning to end; just as HE would do it as a professional chef.


But everyone kept tossing back with this "just listen" shit! I AM LISTENING. I AM TWEAKING EVERY KNOB known to my setup; and as this person felt; OK. Close, but no cigar! Just like 'ol dude would agree: Im not just gonna' say; "Here! This is what you need. Now go cook 'til you get it right." Without saying HOW LONG, or HOW HOT, were gonna' cook. YES. Heat is heat; its gonna' cook. But mine cooked at 350 to taste like this. Even though 550 WILL no doubt cook it; It wont taste like slow and 350!!!!!!!!!

I just KNEW if i kept reading, SOMEONE is gonna' have the answer to THAT one, because you couldn't get no better way of explaining the DIFFERENCE. Or so i thought. NOTHIN'!!!! Same stuff.

You know what Art? I think we HAVE gotten one answer outta this one, if nothing else. It is a definite "trick" to the hip-hop engineering trade. An industry "secret" of sorts, and you're right. Now, how stupid do we look asking for the "stuff that seperates the "professionals" from the "wanna-be's"? You know? The cats that either went to some sort of school, or had hands on training; or someone who was lucky enough to find out on his own, somehow. I just wish someone out of all these damn people that claim they know stuff, would just come out and say it. It would make my new years easier.
 
I've only done a couple of rap/hiphop albums, so I'm not much of an authority, but from what I've seen, it's a combination of the right equipment, talent, and engineering skills.

A lot of the "big dawgz" favor the Sony 800G microphone, a great (and very expensive) mic, with lots of "air". From that, they may go into an 1173 or LA-2 to add some punch.

Now the "big dawgz" also have another thing going for them: experience in front of a mic - knowing how to work a mic is a big part of it. And arranging the sounds to leave space for the vocals to shine through.

The last part is having a great engineer who knows how to capture this stuff and a great mastering engineer to smooth things out.

It ain't just the equipment that separates the "big dawgz" from the home studio guys - it's talent and experience as well.
 
LordSire said:
I think we HAVE gotten one answer outta this one, if nothing else. It is a definite "trick" to the hip-hop engineering trade. An industry "secret" of sorts, and you're right. Now, how stupid do we look asking for the "stuff that seperates the "professionals" from the "wanna-be's"? You know? The cats that either went to some sort of school, or had hands on training; or someone who was lucky enough to find out on his own, somehow. I just wish someone out of all these damn people that claim they know stuff, would just come out and say it. It would make my new years easier.
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Sadly, when a novice thinks there is a "trick" involved usually it just means that good engineering practices were used. Nothing fancy, nothing "weird", nothing outlandish... just a good mic and preamp, good room, with fairly standard compression and EQ techniques. Oh yeah, let's not forget the talent of the artist, or the arrangement of the song, or the instrumentation of the song.

If you find yourself listening and tweaking and still not getting the sound you want, you need to LISTEN closer and maybe re-record to get the source as close to the sound you want before trying to use "tricks."

Here's the scoop on tricks--there AREN'T any.
 
LordSire said:
So this person, being a chef, i guess; goes into a detailed example of, if someone asked him how to cook a particular dish, he would give them the immediates(cooking temps, type of dish to use, ingredients, etc.). Then agreed: Yes. You would, in preperation, season to taste the suitor; but if asked to make it taste like how HIS tasted, he would walk them through from beginning to end; just as HE would do it as a professional chef.
...
You know what Art? I think we HAVE gotten one answer outta this one, if nothing else. It is a definite "trick" to the hip-hop engineering trade. An industry "secret" of sorts, and you're right. Now, how stupid do we look asking for the "stuff that seperates the "professionals" from the "wanna-be's"? You know? The cats that either went to some sort of school, or had hands on training; or someone who was lucky enough to find out on his own, somehow. I just wish someone out of all these damn people that claim they know stuff, would just come out and say it. It would make my new years easier.
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What makes this question so damn difficult to answer are the mythical assumptions that lay behind the question itself. The type of answer that is being looked for and assumed by such questions just does not exist. It's not that it's a secret that the pros are keeping to themselves or anything like that at all. The big secret - and it's not a secret because we want it to be, God knows we say this in public ad nauseum - is that there is no secret.

One of the biggest myths behind such questions that is the hardest to bust is that there IS such a thing as a "secret recipe" that can simply be listed out in terms like "now sprinkle in some EQ boost at 1250Hz and add some 3:1 compression with a threshold of -15dB..." It simply doesn't work that way. The analogy to a chef's recipe is a faulty analogy. Why? Because chefs are always working from standard ingrediends. Salt is salt. A tomato is a tomato. And so forth. Yes, the qualities of each varies; everybody knows that the best dishes are make when one starts with the best ingredients. But even if the ingredients are of inferior quality, the basic recipe does not change (except for maybe a little more salt or less pepper or something like that.)

And starting with the best ingredients is paramount in recording too. This is why we always say that the performance and the tracking are the single most important parts of the entire engineering process. John Scrip says that best in his signature on these forums.

But the big difference between cooking and audio engineering is that, while a tomato is more or less a tomato, a vocal is NOT more or less a vocal, a kick drum is not more or less a kick drum. There are so many variations due to the nature of the performer, the nature of where the performance takes place, the nature of the music itself (genre, composition, arrangement), the nature of the equipment used to create the recording, the nature of the technique used in making such recordings etc. that what potentiallly gets recorded can be entirely different animals from session to session, person to person. If you wanted to try and apply the cooking analogy to that, it's like planting a seed and not being sure whether you'll wind up with a tomato or an orange.

This is the key to true understanding of the situation. Because the ingredients are constantly changing, recipes are close to meaningless. If your vocal tastes like a tomato, adding salt and pepper can make sense. If your vocal taste like an orange, however, probably no amount of salt and pepper is going to taste any good.

What is needed instead of recipes is knowledge of technique; i.e. how to develop one's own recipe on the fly based upon the ingredients one is given to work with. The knowledge that if you have an orange, salt and pepper will not work well, but sugar often will, but if you have a raisin, you might perhaps want to consider cinnamon instead for a whole new effect. Either way, my recipe is going to do you no good whatsoever if I think your track tastes/sounds like a mango.

The only way such technique can be understood and applied is to start with one's ears the way a chef would with their taste buds. The only way we can tell if our vocal is a tomato or an orange is to taste it with our ears, not my calling it a "vocal". And that is also the only way to tell if we are using the right seasoning and the right amount of it (or decide if it even needs seasoning at all.)

This board and the greater world in the form of the Internet and books at the library and bookstores are chock full of technique tricks for audio enginnering that are on the order or level of "salt for tomato, sugar for orange". And even better than that is to take our recording, play around with the EQ or compressor or whatever, and use our ears to see how it tastes when we add some "pepper" at 250Hz or "turn up the heat on the frying pan" by compressing a submix and see for ourselves what sounds sour and what burns the audio gravy.

Get some raw ingredients, and listen to them. Load up on these tips, tricks and techniques in your tool box, and apply the ones that are relevant to the sound of your ingredients. And don't forget to experiment every once in a while (I'm sure there's a chef in this world somewhere who actually can make a mean "Salt n' Pepper Orange" ;) ).

That's how audio engineering works.

G.
 
Secret Formula... shhhhh... dont tell anyone, its just our secret, okay? :D


(Producer + Writer + Arranger)*(Talented and experienced artist + Tracking Room + correct Mic + correct Preamp + Talented and experienced tracking and mixing engineer + Proper Monitoring chain) * (Experienced mastering engineer + proper signal chain + proper monitoring chain) = polished "pro" result :D :) ;)
 
LordSire said:
The room? You think all of that is just the room? That's kinda hard to digest there, Falk.
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yeah; I didn't want to believe it either, because I'm locked into a lease for another year.

but answer this....

how is your vocal going to jump out of the stereo if it is captured with the sound of your room? all that is going to come out of the speakers is the sound of your room. see if you can "hear" the room on "pro" records and then see if you can hear it on yours. seriously. it sucks but its true.

about what you said about just the end of the vocal line being doubled...

sometimes it is done that way...like the guy is rapping and has like 3-5 lines that all end on the same rhyme and his buddies chime in on the last word. beastie boys do this in like every song. that is one way, but a lot of the new producers it seems do it slightly differently. they have the lead vocalist double the same line, but they embellish it at the end of the line. so fitee cent might be sayin "pocket full of bud sippin bud" (can't make out the words but lets say its this). when doing the double he'll say the line exactly the same but when he gets to the end of the line the producer makes him sing it with a little more emphasis. so that just the end stands out. but in reality the entire track is double or triple tracked. you only notice on certain words because that's how the producer had the vocalist sing it. and it probably took the vocalist all damn day to get it right.

and as always harvey had to smack us upside the head with some obvious truth.
 
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Double and triple tracking the last words of a line (or words inside the line that need emphasis) are typical in rap and hip hop. Some rappers do their own doubling; others bring in other rappers to do the emphasis - both ways can work well. Watch "Soul Train" or other shows that feature rap/hiphop for some of the different techniques they use.
 
None the less I think there are some productive posts being made.

So if I may add a question... Say I wanted the MOSSSSST simpilest setup for equiptment (leaving the room acroustics out for right now, knowing its a major key part still...) on a professional level with unlimited funds. What would be some of the best?

Avalon preamp I would assume? I seen one in dres studio and it seems a lot of Pros use them?

Also another thing to add is... I've noticed that a lot of producers that have produced songs for commercial hip-hop and rap artists (via "scratch magazine") use the same stuff we do! WTF!

lol... Well close to some of the same stuff usually its some version of a korg keyboard, vsti's, and reason or cool edit (seen oneproducer who makes beats list cool edit in his tool box of equipt.), and MOSTLY ALWAYS pro tools (it seems)...

Me being a graphic designer kinda guy I know how different programs can handle images differently. Adobe's photoshop is the leader in this field (and industry standard) and handles images way better then any program ive used as far as everything that matters for digital imaging.

Now with that same thinking, I would think different programs can handle sound differently as well, right??? I've noticed that when I play one wave file in winamp it sounds good... then when i play that same one in adobe audition it sounds A LOT better... So that tells me that adobe audition handles waves better then winamp at least....


So maybe pro tools does "also" handle sound better then the rest??? (i realize that that speculation could receive harsh treatment, sorry....) It is suppose to be the industry standard so.... I guess one of the first steps would be to use pro tools instead of all these other programs?It makes sense to me but I don't know the technical logic behind each program, proper digital wave coding and technological breakthroughs etc.) and who does besides probably some professor at some media college teaching this stuff.... ???

Just a thought... might not make much sense but also might give a little needed boost in quality... I think in the future when I can afford the pro tools rack i might switch over for awhile and see what all the fuss is about...
 
Protools doesn't sound any different than cubase. winamp has a bunch of eq settings and other junk to clutter up the sound. It also migh be going through a different monitor path than audition.

Some of it is the tools you use, but most of it is what you do with them. An expereinced engineer can do more with a 58 and a cassette 4-track than a newbe with an ssl and protools.
 
I use ProTools (HD, w/ 4 Accel cards if you're wondering) daily and I can say without fear of contradiction that it sounds like every other professional DAW software. The advantage (and only IMHO) of ProTools HD is the sheer amount of DSP power you can throw at a project. If you're a resource pig like me and manage to get big track counts (yeah, my small projects are about 48 tracks... big ones 100+) or stupid plugin counts (I'm pushing almost 200 per session these days, no less than 100 it seems) it's the way to go.

Unfortunately you'll pay dearly for that kind of power.

IMHO, hip hop is so resource light you *DON'T* really need the power of a HD system. Heck, if I'm commissioned to write beats I'll do it in Cubase SL with VST instruments and import the .aiff's to ProTools for vocal recording and mixing because I think the MIDI for ProTools still sucks.
 
O.K........."Secret" may sound a bit paranoid.N "trick" is my best way 2 describe it

In regards to all the comments: Thank You. There IS a little better of an understanding. But this is why there are no mutual comprehensions between anyone who posts this question. As I see it and now very well understand, it's hard to get true clarity on the topic, is because of the lack of info given by the poster. Check it out: Let's get some thingz out the way: first off, thanx for all the input. Glen, thank you hugely for takin that time out to give such detail to your response; all of it is appreciated dearly. But i'm sincerely sorry to say, i still kinda' disagree, kinda'.(sorry)


I'm aware there are probably hundreds and thousands of people on this site who are totally clueless to the recording process. ALL OF IT. No idea from beginning to end. I modestly can say, i'm not one of them. I totally comprehend the "immediate basics" of this process. Those "common sense" (or should be) parts that BEGIN this process. I 4-got who, (my bad), but someone mentioned talent and experience; As far as the talent aspect, im a very modest man.(A modest RAPPER?! Talk about your oxymorons!!!) But let's just say, hypothetically, we give that to me and say, O.K.. He's talented enough. Hypothetically.Now, experience: I hate to tell people this, because some may believe, "if you haven't made it YET. You're not gonna' make it." But if you add up the years i've been rapping; My "rapping" age, as of May of this year, is now old enough to legally buy alcohol in the united states. ;) So let's definitely chalk up experience

With that experience, of course comes some common sensible knowledge of room dampering, mic placement, and ALL those things that apply. Of course, though, some of us work with limited funds. But i KNOW not to look for a great sound GOING IN with some sort of karaoke mic, and things of the such. I would like to believe i could get decent results with my minimal amount of equipment.(Please tell me if im wrong. Mic is an AKG 2000B; I use CEP 2.1; With a layla interface and soundcard. My monitors are alesis M1's, and i'm temporarily using a peavey unity series 300, soon to be an alesisMM16firewire as my mixing and routing unit only.??)


With all that out of the way, and a little more clarity(hopefully): Now answer this. Mainly SSG, but anybody can respond, of course. If I asked that chef how to make that aforementioned "salt and pepper" orange, what would he tell me? Especially in the just as important "final stages" of the process? We BOTH understand we're gonna need salt, pepper, orange, etc. We also understand we need the facility, dish to make it in, maybe oven; all starting off with the best "orange" you can find, etc. But what about the PROCESS? The temp, time to cook? ALL components may be very important, of course. But all those things fall in the "prep" catagory. To actually make this dish or item, it has to cook at a PREFERABLE temp, for a PREFERABLE amount of time. YES. After you've learned the basics, now it's experimental time. But only AFTER.


Look. lets skip the cooking analogy. I don't know how extended everyone's knowledge of engineering for hip-hop music is; but i guess no one can really answer this question if their not an avid listener of hip-hop music. Because its virtually impossible to understand what's being asked about with this vocal mixing technique, if you've never heard it. Especially like ive said before: So many different responses to questions saying all the same thing: "it's all up to an individuals own hearing, as well as tastes", "Use your ears. It's all about what you HEAR." Then WHY is it that SOOOO many differnt hip-hop artists have this same, exact, identical effect on their vocals? Man, woman; child, and adult alike. And to my knowledge, to get everyone else "hip"; these different artists have many different facilities and engineers between them all. Different sets of ears, different tastes, different gear, different listening environments, different RECORDING environments. Because im sure we all understand that these "collaborations", 9 times out of 10, the featured artists NEVER see each other during recording. The verses are recorded at different times, different places, in different STATES sometimes. Yes. Its the same engineer, but the different specs of the booth and the like will make sound differentiate from verse to verse. EVEN WITH THAT TO NOW ADD. Therefore, different artists, and finally, different engineers; yet, of course,
melodramatically, EXACT SAME EFFECT. Exact, same width, and thickness, and clarity.That damn "double" yet not doubled effect.

When i double mine in every way imaginable, and so far told; you can TELL it's doubled. no matter what i tweak and turn, hide and expose. All these things told to me make a difference on sound. then why not a difference in "sound"? I apologize for such a long thread, fellas. Hell, it might not get read all the way; but i had a lot to say (shit, still!). I don't know....im just gonna' go get me a stiff shot of cognac to help deaden the pain; and i don't even drink :(
 
Amen !!!!

Cloneboy Studio said:
In my opinion the biggest advantages they have over average joes are (in order of importance):

1.) the *TIME* to get it right (when was the last time you spent 100 hours recording a single song?)

2.) the *TALENT* in the first place (let's face it, not everyone has it)

3.) *QUALITY* gear, and lots of it--more choices means you can match equipment to what you are trying to achieve (important, but not near as important as 1 and 2)

4.) the ability to have a proper workspace; i.e. no interruption closed sessions (you don't think you're actually gonna get the best quality work in that dank, smelly basement do you?)

5.) the ability to hire top producers, song writers, musicians and so forth (it's always a plus to have guys like Banner writing your beats, while being produced by Rick Rubin, and engineered by Nile Rogers)
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THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR TALENT, AND THE LUXURY OF TIME!!
 
The other day I went to this Architect's forum. I told them about how I was way into those cool buildings and things so I went out and bought me some CAD software at Best Buy for 49.95. I then asked for somebody to tell me how to design those buildings because I REALLY want to have one of those "pro" skyscrapers! I mean, I understand that you've got concrete, steel, and then all the plumbing and stuff, so I mean I know what goes into it and everything. I just need somebody to tell me how to really design the thing so I can get pro-level results. Then they insulted me by telling me that I was a fool for thinking that they could just tell me a few their secrets and that I would be underway with my architectural business. Those guys were real assholes! I know there are secrets! They just won't tell me!
 
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