Well, the MSR ain't gonna have NR

  • Thread starter Thread starter Seeker of Rock
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TASCAM call went like this. I talked to Jim Finch who was able to tell me a lot about the NR systems, differences between Dolby and DBX, likely problems with the unit after hearing the sound out of my monitors through the phone and my explanation of what was happening, MSRs in general, input levels, Amp Services (my Tech), etc.
Well, relating to my unit...he said it would likely be a power or transformer problem. Likely a blown fuse, but definitely power related. He said nothing can be done about the Dolby, especially since it is likely the processor, explaining that each of the pairs of channels controlled by one amp card has a "not-what-I-want-to-call-a-true-processor", but a chip that controls each pair of cards. If these chips are bad, which apparently some are, TASCAM doesn't have any to replace them with.
Anyway, he knew Tom (my tech) and Chris (his brother and partner) by name. Said they were very reputable, they have met at the California service center, etc, etc. He said they stand behind their work and verified they are "one of the best out there." Now I have it from three sources, two big studios down here and TASCAM service center. So maybe it is just a matter of coincidence, and this is something simple that can be fixed. Anyway, I think I will have my wife take it back up on Monday.
As far as Dolby, he mentioned the DBX or Dolby outboard units, and actually explained to me the differences in how each one works. Cool. He said that he has an MSR at the service center for testing, and that he recorded some CD material at +28 db levels and no noticeable distortion. As Beck mentioned, he said to keep the levels hot and I may find I won't miss the NR. He also said there was +3 db per track of noise, so I'm looking at +48 if using all 16. Now that would only be on a full band number where it may or may not be noticeable. On the acoustic tunes I have written, it should only take 8 channels or so the way I plan to record them.
What else....oh yeah, he said what I already knew..."those are great sounding decks, man."
Bummed that I can't track this weekend, but maybe I'll do some scratch tracks on the 488 in the meantime, just so I can come up with the bass and drum parts to a couple of the tunes.
It's time for a my first glass of wine for the evening. :)
 
Yeah, I'm bad about that. Anyway, done.
 
You know, I've been giving this more thought. Normally I'm hesitant to recommend +9 tapes for anything less than maybe a 1/2" 8-track, which is basically the same track width as a 2" 24-track. I'm more interested in the GP9 class for half-track mastering where I thing they really shine.

But this seems like a nothing-to-lose situation, so I'll go out on a limb and say give 499 or GP9 a try. One of the biggest pains is recalibrating the noise reduction after changing the operating level. But since you are chucking the NR that's not an issue here.

And you don't have to over do it. Meaning you don't have to set up for +9. Many people come under just a bit like +8 or even +7 to leave some head room. GP9 is quieter anyway -- les hiss.

The best scenario would be to have your tech carefully balance the operating level with distortion and crosstalk considerations, which are more of an issue on narrower tracks and hot levels.

GP9, 499, Emtec 900 or the ATR Magnetics stuff (when it comes out) could eliminate the need for NR even more so than just running 456 hot.

GP9 sounded awesome on my TSR-8, but I ended up setting it back because of tape costs and standardization considerations.

The MSR-16 has roughly half the track width, but what the hell. Those Tascam machines never cease to amaze me. Tascam specs are always conservative (being a minimum and not an average they are more real world), so one usually has some wiggle room to experiment.

What seems like a problem now can create an opportunity to experiment that you wouldn't have done otherwise. Divine providence -- I never discount it. :)

Best,
Tim
 
Beck said:
You know, I've been giving this more thought. Normally I'm hesitant to recommend +9 tapes for anything less than maybe a 1/2" 8-track, which is basically the same track width as a 2" 24-track. I'm more interested in the GP9 class for half-track mastering where I thing they really shine.

But this seems like a nothing-to-lose situation, so I'll go out on a limb and say give 499 or GP9 a try. One of the biggest pains is recalibrating the noise reduction after changing the operating level. But since you are chucking the NR that's not an issue here.

And you don't have to over do it. Meaning you don't have to set up for +9. Many people come under just a bit like +8 or even +7 to leave some head room.

The best scenario would be to have your tech carefully balance the operating level with distortion and crosstalk considerations, which are more of an issue on narrower tracks and hot levels.

GP9, 499, Emtec 900 or the ATR Magnetics stuff (when it comes out) could eliminate the need for NR even more so than just running 456 hot.

GP9 sounded awesome on my TSR-8, but I ended up setting it back because of tape costs and standardization considerations.

The MSR-16 has roughly half the track width, but what the hell. Those Tascam machines never cease to amaze me. Tascam specs are always conservative (being a minimum and not an average they are more real world), so one usually has some wiggle room to experiment.

What seems like a problem now can create an opportunity to experiment that you wouldn't have done otherwise. Divine providence -- I never discount it. :)

Best,
Tim
Click to expand...

Tim,

this is a quote from the usrecordingmedia website. This section is on how to choose a test tape:

http://www.usrecordingmedia.com/whcataareall.html said:
What kind of tape are you recording on? There's three "operating levels" (see below for definitions) of recording tape our MRL tapes can cover: +3 dB, +6 dB, and +9 dB. Quantegy 406, 407, 408, 480, and 478 are +3dB and use 250 nWb/m calibration tapes. Quantegy 456 and 457 are +6 dB and use 355 nWb/m calibration tapes. Also, the high output tapes like Quantegy GP9 are +9 dB tapes and can also use the 355 nWb/m tapes by setting the operating level on playback to a -3 VU on the meters. Why not have a +9 or a 520 nWb/m calibration tape? Most users of tape use either Quantegy 456 or Quantegy GP9 (and soon the ATR Magnetics tapes). The 350 nWb/m tapes will cover both with a slight -3VU output adjustment for the +9 tapes.
Click to expand...

maybe a re-bias isn't necessary?

I just ordered a some 1/2" 456 and GP9 and some 1/4" 456, GP9, and 406 for mixdown (they still don't have 1/2" 406) to do some "experiments".

If anyone's interested I can post a clip of the first song I recorded on my E-16 which was on GP9 (biased for 456) and another song on 456 to hear the differences. of course you can't conclude much from one song but I am going to do a whole bunch of songs and switch the tape a couple times just to see which is best for my needs.
 
FALKEN said:
Tim,

this is a quote from the usrecordingmedia website. This section is on how to choose a test tape:



maybe a re-bias isn't necessary?
Click to expand...

What they are saying there is they don't make a 520 nW/m cal tape because you can use a 355 nW/m cal tape with a 3 VU offset to adjust for the difference. The bias is different for GP9/499 tapes, so you would have to set that differently than for 456.

You can use any reference cal tape and adjust the meters for the difference. But the closer the cal tape is to the tape you are using the better.

Quantegy has a nice little reference that makes it handy to choose the offset for the cal tape and tape type you want to use.

http://www.quantegy.com/Audiorecordersetup.asp

So if your reference calibration tape is 355/370 nW/m and you want to set your operating level for +9 you would adjust offset to –3 VU on the meter. For a lower operating level the offset could be set for –1 VU or –2 VU. –2 VU would put you at +8

So the result is the same as if you would have a 520 nW/m MRL tape. The bias for GP9 and 456 are only 1 dB different for a tascam running at 15 ips, so they are very close. At 7.5 ips it's a bigger spread -- 7 dB vs 5dB.

Make sense?
 
Beck said:
The bias for GP9 and 456 are only 1 dB different for a tascam running at 15 ips, so they are very close. At 7.5 ips it's a bigger spread -- 7 dB vs 5dB.

Make sense?
Click to expand...

yes and no. the first part all makes sense. but the difference is only 1db at 15ips??? isn't that negligible?
 
Beck said:
You know, I've been giving this more thought. Normally I'm hesitant to recommend +9 tapes for anything less than maybe a 1/2" 8-track, which is basically the same track width as a 2" 24-track. I'm more interested in the GP9 class for half-track mastering where I thing they really shine.

But this seems like a nothing-to-lose situation, so I'll go out on a limb and say give 499 or GP9 a try. One of the biggest pains is recalibrating the noise reduction after changing the operating level. But since you are chucking the NR that's not an issue here.

And you don't have to over do it. Meaning you don't have to set up for +9. Many people come under just a bit like +8 or even +7 to leave some head room. GP9 is quieter anyway -- les hiss.

The best scenario would be to have your tech carefully balance the operating level with distortion and crosstalk considerations, which are more of an issue on narrower tracks and hot levels.

GP9, 499, Emtec 900 or the ATR Magnetics stuff (when it comes out) could eliminate the need for NR even more so than just running 456 hot.

GP9 sounded awesome on my TSR-8, but I ended up setting it back because of tape costs and standardization considerations.

The MSR-16 has roughly half the track width, but what the hell. Those Tascam machines never cease to amaze me. Tascam specs are always conservative (being a minimum and not an average they are more real world), so one usually has some wiggle room to experiment.

What seems like a problem now can create an opportunity to experiment that you wouldn't have done otherwise. Divine providence -- I never discount it. :)

Best,
Tim
Click to expand...
Okay, you seem like the guy to ask.
I'm running Nuendo right now, but eventually want to get and analog deck to go with my A&H GS 3000 which is sitting by itself over in the UK.

Have you ever made comparisons between the MSR 24 and 16 and the TSR 8?
I'd like to know if anyone can hear any difference between the newer upright machines and say a 2" 24 track or the ATR 16 or any of those more commercial pro machines, as on ebay, you can pick this stuff up all for a song these days. Even a 2" 24 track for around $5000, a really good one.
I saw that some people are making a 2" 8 track head. Can the human ear really tell the difference between these? If so, I'd spend the extra few bucks on the big machines.
I always liked the TSR 8 though. 1/2 inch. It always just seemed to be a better deal than the Fostex R8, and it takes up a lot less space than the older pro commercial ones. Is there really a difference in sound quality?
Does anyone know of any commercially released recording that used one that I can check out???
 
It's one of those things... in the grand scheme of things, these big machines make a difference, but with all pro-equipment: pro-consoles, effects, cables, amps, mics, studio acoustics, the whole deal.

For home recording, there isn't all that much a difference, not when your finished product is on CD, or even worse, MP3. That is to say, unless you're having it professionally (and I stress the word professional here) mastered.

-MD
 
TASCAM service is turning out to be quite helpful and supportive. The service manager e-mailed me back a question directed toward Jim Finch. He said that the MSR needs to be re-calibrated for GP9 or 499, and that he has done this previously with success. Since the MSR is back in her "second home" right now anyway for that nasty power problem, guess now is a good time to do it. Thanks for the help and encouragement and wise advice. It really means a lot to me.
Dale
 
FALKEN said:
yes and no. the first part all makes sense. but the difference is only 1db at 15ips??? isn't that negligible?
Click to expand...

Although +/- 1 dB of operating level is no big deal, +/- 1 dB of bias frequency level is significant. There is some slack in setting bias, but it's not as much as 1 dB or even 0.5 dB.

But then it all depends on the tape, the speed, the track width and the head gap.

456 vs. GP9 on an MSR-16… then 1 dB means something. Same for a Fostex E-16.

1 dB means less at 7.5 ips, but means the most at 30 ips where the difference between the bias settings for GP9 and 456 is only 0.25 dB.
 
Some sense which started out as senseless....so the tech plugged in my MSR today and called me back..."Dale, there is no problem I see, no meter readings, no noise....I'm going to leave it on and plugged in for awhile and see if I can duplicate the problem". An hour later, tech says "Dale, I found the problem. I thought it may have been an amp card that came loose during transport, so after an hour of nothing I tapped on the side and it duplicated the problem. Problem-shot and found one of the wires on one of the ribbon cords was bad. It was bad inside, but being crimped intermittently to carry signal. Anyway, I isolated the bad wire, respliced, and problem solved." I also had him re-bias for GP9. Now I know how to write and make music, but am still very green on the technical side of things, but he said he was able to get a bias of +5...he didn't feel comfortable going more to have the machine operate correctly, but that +5 is where the machine will do best as far as driving levels and being "setup" for GP9 tape. I pick her up, AGAIN mind you, tomorrow, but I feel good as always about welcoming Christine home. Just need to order a reel of GP9 now. :) :)
Thanks again to everybody for the support. :) :) :)
 
You named your MSR "Christine"??? My God, man!!

Y'know, I'm just gratified that your awful MSR16 money-pit story will hopefully have a happy ending, all this time later! I'm sure you & ~Christine~ will be very happy together!

Setting for +5 when running GP9 should give you +4(VU) of headroom, instead of setting "0" for +6 and having +3(VU) of headroom.

It's a small difference, that should not be terribly noticeable in daily use. It gives you a +1db more headroom in the upper db's,... above "0VU".

Thanx! Keep us posted!
 
It also goes with the old saying,...

"If in doubt/when all else fails,... use a bigger hammer! :eek: ;)
 
Not a big difference...that sucks because I paid $125 for that not-so-big difference. It's become a laughable situation at this point anyway, so I don't even feel it anymore. Oh yeah, another $75 for the splice of the bad wiring in the ribbon cord. I figure for this MSR with no working Dolby, including shipping originally and packaging, re-lapped heads, calibration, re-vulcanizing the tach roller, new pinch roller, and now the most recent, a bit over $2,000. When I told Jim Finch from TASCAM that over the phone while pleading my case and searching for honest advice, the immediate response was "ouch". I agree. I don't know where this little machine will take me, but if you believe in Karma she's got a lot of my $$$ dedication already into her, and by that, not being a millioniare, a lot of my hopeful energy into her as well. What's this all mean? If she gets her shit together and ends up recording my music, the tape deck will have a lot more or my attention, just by default that I will constantly be sensitive to the possibility she may act up or break down, thus focusing my energy on her, be it good or bad. I hope she is worth it because I could easily cut my losses and buy another MSR for $500-800, and I already have the remote which works fine. For now, I'll play the hand, challenging as it has been, with which I was dealt. My music is what matters, but I just need something decent to record it on. :) :) :)

BTW, got a Joemeek VC1Qcs to replace my MQ3 for main vocals a few weeks back and it is a very welcomed improvement. Still love my MQ3, but it will have a new place in the recording chain.
 
Hi,
I have had this problem myself on my MSR 16S. The problem with the sound card is that the Capacitors have gone out of spec. Now the fun begins.

All later built MSR Dolby S machines have Dolby cards with very small micro capacitors. These are very hard to change and unless the tech is very skilful the resultant fix will probably not work. The only people that can fix these are specialists that work on micro electronics. The parts are very cheap it’s all labour. The good news is that once it’s fixed you will get another 10 to 15 years use, in fact the new micro Capacitors are better and longer lasting. I would not buy any boards from Tascam (I don’t think they have any regardless) as new old stock can still have developed a capacitor problem and the parts are expensive, remember you need 12 off 2 channel boards.

Early MSR Dolby S machines had different cards, these had bigger older type capacitors which are easier to change but actually rarely gave any trouble anyway, I think you must have the later ones.

How I know this? I was getting my cards slowly reconditioned when another MSR16S came up on ebay, I bought the machine for spare parts and when I pulled the Dolby S cards they where the older type, so I swapped them all to the old type in my good machine and problem has never returned.

It’s worth getting the cards fixed as the Dolby S is fantastic all the talk about not using noise reduction with this and that tape will never give the performance of Dolby S.
Cheers

Alan.
 
It’s good to know about this for future reference. Working on surface-mount components is a pretty thorny matter. Do you know which caps need to be replaced and how many on each board?

I’ve worked on these little devils with a lighted magnifier, tweezers, and a small-tipped 15-Watt iron, but it’s no fun at all.
 
Seeker of Rock said:
...he said he was able to get a bias of +5...he didn't feel comfortable going more to have the machine operate correctly, but that +5 is where the machine will do best as far as driving levels and being "setup" for GP9 tape.
Click to expand...

He must mean an operating level of +5 320 nW/m. The bias should be about 4 and is a different part of the setup. Running GP9 gently like that will give you a clean, detailed recording.
 
I'd be interested to hear how much crosstalk there is at that level, and whether it's an audible difference or not.

-MD
 
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