Vocal booth question / ideas

[rountrjf]

Hello,

I'm new to this stuff but have been browsing around online for answers for awhile now. I'm not sure if this is the place to post this so here goes...

I have a room that is say... 10'x11' rectangle.
It has a tiny closet with sliding doors.
It has one window.

I'm wanting to turn this space into a little project studio.

I have an endless supply of heavy duty 8lb moving blankets and I'm curious if I could utilize this to make a vocal booth in this space.

Could I use say 2 layers on walls in a corner and then make a third layer tacked in a "wave" like formation or "zig-zag" type or more 3 dimensional I guess to act as traps?

I was thinking about picking a corner and tacking these things to the walls and then suspending them to create a 4'x5' "booth" or curtain behind the vocalist...? I could also cover the window, I could even coat every single wall in the room and leave no space uncovered if I wanted to.

Any help / ideas would be appreciated!

Sincerely,
Josh

 

[Massive Master]

Covering the space with moving blankets would probably give you similar results as covering it with foam -- Worthless and muddy. Layers may help isolate to some extent - But they may very well make an acoustically bad space even worse in the low end.

Always start with the low end. Always. Every time, without exception, always.

 

[rountrjf]

So, I'm leaning towards not creating a separate "vocal booth" like area of the room and just covering the walls.

Once covered, would it be helpful to get corner bass trap foam?

Am I missing your point?

Are you saying to just get bass trap foam, then test sound, then add blankets?

Thx for the response!

 

[Massive Master]

Foam is not "bass trap foam" (although much of it is marketed as such).

Foam sucks. Good rooms won't need any foam. Broadband trapping takes care of the problematic low end frequencies (at least to some extent).

You can "touch up" with foam -- But never start with it. A lot of people do (throw foam everywhere and think that it sounds good), a lot of people regret it later. Same with carpeting, blankets, etc. They absorb high end. 90% of the problematic energy is in the low end. In a 10x11 room, I can guarantee you that you're going to have rather severe low end issues in the baritone vocal range and lower. And it's going to take quite the bunch of chunks of trapping (4" OC703 is a nice start) to handle it.

That said: I'm no expert on the density and acoustic properties of 'stacked' packing blankets -- THAT said, I DO know that 4" 703 does what it's supposed to do. *THAT* said, I was forced to work in a 10x11(x8) room for some time and it took a dozen 2'x4'x4" traps just to make it *half* reasonable. It was still an acoustic nightmare.

I'm not necessarily trying to discourage here - But you've got quite a hill to climb in that space and it's not going to be an easy task...

 

[rountrjf]

I am not tracking...
You seem kind of jaded lol

Why do most pro studios have foam in their booths?
You seem confident and you seem like you know what you're talking about I just don't understand what you're trying to tell me...

Are you saying my room is hopeless? Just shut up and do it and you'll figure it out? or...

Also, keep in mind - I'm not looking to sell my space or to be as good as any real studio I just want a place for my wife and I to record vocals and have half way decent sound. I just came across these moving pads and decided to see if I can use them for this purpose

-Josh

Foam is not "bass trap foam" (although much of it is marketed as such).

Foam sucks. Good rooms won't need any foam. Broadband trapping takes care of the problematic low end frequencies (at least to some extent).

You can "touch up" with foam -- But never start with it. A lot of people do (throw foam everywhere and think that it sounds good), a lot of people regret it later. Same with carpeting, blankets, etc. They absorb high end. 90% of the problematic energy is in the low end. In a 10x11 room, I can guarantee you that you're going to have rather severe low end issues in the baritone vocal range and lower. And it's going to take quite the bunch of chunks of trapping (4" OC703 is a nice start) to handle it.

That said: I'm no expert on the density and acoustic properties of 'stacked' packing blankets -- THAT said, I DO know that 4" 703 does what it's supposed to do. *THAT* said, I was forced to work in a 10x11(x8) room for some time and it took a dozen 2'x4'x4" traps just to make it *half* reasonable. It was still an acoustic nightmare.

I'm not necessarily trying to discourage here - But you've got quite a hill to climb in that space and it's not going to be an easy task...

 

[Massive Master]

1) I am jaded.
2) You are tracking -- Although it really doesn't matter - A good room is a good room and a bad room is a bad room. It's either relatively accurate and consistent or it's not. That one won't be without a good amount of broadband trapping. Tracking or mixing doesn't really matter.

That said - There are more 'live' rooms and more 'dead' rooms -- But even the live rooms have bass management.

True - A lot of studios cover their vocal booths with foam to make it a more 'dead' space - But you probably don't see all the broadband treatment (there's probably no drywall behind the foam and the entire stud space is filled with rigid fiberglass or rockwool). That, and most studios don't record vocals in their vocal booths unless they need to for some reason. At least if we're talking about 'vocal closets' (closets are inherently awful places to record pretty much anything except maybe piccolo or dog whistles). A bigger space is almost universally a better space. Control over the space is what matters after that.

3) I understand that "that's the space" - which is why I'm suggesting what I'm suggesting. It will take a lot to make that space acoustically viable. If you're happy with it as it is, or if it's "good enough" with whatever you decide to do with it, that's fine. I'm just pointing out what to expect...

The room I was in with those measurements had null points of around 35dB and peaks of over 12dB -- with a half-dozen 2'x4'x4" traps. Adding more traps helped a bit (maybe -30/+10), but not much. And that particular room had a "giant bass trap" of a ceiling (a rather unique multi-layer diaphragmic absorber or sorts) and 12" of rigid fiberglass above.

Anyway --

If you can find a decent spot in the room (you can bet a dollar that it's going to be 4.2' from the 10' wall and 3.8' from the 11' wall), put the mic there (subject facing away from the corner, of course) and see what happens.

 

[rountrjf]

You rock! Thank you for the input.
You are extremely helpful.

I definitely get that it's not a professionally treated room and that I'm kind of winging it. I'm thinking it's just a trial and error until I get the sound I'm looking for.

Would it be beneficial (if I have the resources) to deaden all walls a bit with the pads just to make it quieter? To ATTEMPT to block some / if any pipe noise, running water, outside noise through window, etc?

Would the pads block any or a decent amount of the sound?

I'm not necessarily looking at using the pads to make magic happen with acoustics but I can't imagine it would HURT to make it a quieter room in general?

Thanks again for the advice!

1) I am jaded.
2) You are tracking -- Although it really doesn't matter - A good room is a good room and a bad room is a bad room. It's either relatively accurate and consistent or it's not. That one won't be without a good amount of broadband trapping. Tracking or mixing doesn't really matter.

That said - There are more 'live' rooms and more 'dead' rooms -- But even the live rooms have bass management.

True - A lot of studios cover their vocal booths with foam to make it a more 'dead' space - But you probably don't see all the broadband treatment (there's probably no drywall behind the foam and the entire stud space is filled with rigid fiberglass or rockwool). That, and most studios don't record vocals in their vocal booths unless they need to for some reason. At least if we're talking about 'vocal closets' (closets are inherently awful places to record pretty much anything except maybe piccolo or dog whistles). A bigger space is almost universally a better space. Control over the space is what matters after that.

3) I understand that "that's the space" - which is why I'm suggesting what I'm suggesting. It will take a lot to make that space acoustically viable. If you're happy with it as it is, or if it's "good enough" with whatever you decide to do with it, that's fine. I'm just pointing out what to expect...

The room I was in with those measurements had null points of around 35dB and peaks of over 12dB -- with a half-dozen 2'x4'x4" traps. Adding more traps helped a bit (maybe -30/+10), but not much. And that particular room had a "giant bass trap" of a ceiling (a rather unique multi-layer diaphragmic absorber or sorts) and 12" of rigid fiberglass above.

Anyway --

If you can find a decent spot in the room (you can bet a dollar that it's going to be 4.2' from the 10' wall and 3.8' from the 11' wall), put the mic there (subject facing away from the corner, of course) and see what happens.

 

[rountrjf]

Some pics of the room... I'll add some more too. It's really EMPTY right now but I'm gonna get a few more pics of the other walls.

I'm thinking there is no need to separate any portion of the room for vocals after what you've told me. I'll move the vocalist to another portion of the room merely for sound. The mic will be on a boom obviously but right now I just have it sitting on the small stand.

 

[rountrjf]

Edit:

When I told you my room was 10x11x8 I was actually guessing.

The room is actually 12x8x8. Does this help any? LOL (I know It's not a huge room but... never know I guess (cause I'm a n00b)

Thx again~

 

[Massive Master]

The dimensions actually hurt... Everything divisible by 2 & 4, 2 axis the same measurement -- You're going to have colliding peaks and nulls - not just peaks and nulls (specifically, 2-way collisions at 70, 210, etc., and three-way collisions at 141, 282, etc., along with isolated nodes at around 95, 188, etc.).

The pads probably aren't really going to quiet anything down (not without stacking bunches of them). If you're trying to quiet the room down some without spending much, adding another layer of 5/8" drywall is the way to go. Adding the pads kills the highs and leaves the low end to take over (creating mud).

Might help a little bit with the window...

 

[rountrjf]

Well... Like I said - I have a ton of heavy duty moving blankets.
What if I did some sort of quad-layered strip pattern across all walls?

I mean doing SOMETHING has to be better than just leaving the bare walls?

What about recording in a large room with vaulted ceilings?
Like 18x21x15 or so?

P.S. I read your website articles, very useful information! I'm learning! Slowly but surely LOL

The dimensions actually hurt... Everything divisible by 2 & 4, 2 axis the same measurement -- You're going to have colliding peaks and nulls - not just peaks and nulls (specifically, 2-way collisions at 70, 210, etc., and three-way collisions at 141, 282, etc., along with isolated nodes at around 95, 188, etc.).

The pads probably aren't really going to quiet anything down (not without stacking bunches of them). If you're trying to quiet the room down some without spending much, adding another layer of 5/8" drywall is the way to go. Adding the pads kills the highs and leaves the low end to take over (creating mud).

Might help a little bit with the window...

 

[Massive Master]

It's really hard to say. You can try it - It might work, it might fail horrifically. Just keep an ear on the lower resonances. You can stack toilet paper and it'll pull down the high end. But again, 90% of the energy you're trying to tackle is in the low end.

I don't think I've ever been in a room with "high end issues" (other than maybe a little ping or toppy comb filtering - easily fixed) -- But I also don't think I've ever been in a room that DIDN'T have LOW end issues.

The larger room sounds nice... Everything divisible by 3 (slight bummer) but the vaulted ceiling should take care of a lot of standing wave issues.

 

[rountrjf]

Hey again...

Wife did vocals in the small room without any treatment (as expected, sounds awful). So our trial / error begins. I figure I'll do small treatments and test it slowly to understand the changes it goes through to better understand treating the room.

Also, next test is in front corner of large room.
Attached are pictures of both my setup in the small room positioned in a corner pointing away from the corner to a doorway on the opposite side.

Also attached is pics in a corner of our family room which has vaulted ceilings and a lot more open space. Not even slightly sure of what type of treatment it would need nor do I think I would be willing to actually do treatment in my family room but here goes...

Sorry about the crappy pics, hopefully you can make sense of them.

It's really hard to say. You can try it - It might work, it might fail horrifically. Just keep an ear on the lower resonances. You can stack toilet paper and it'll pull down the high end. But again, 90% of the energy you're trying to tackle is in the low end.

I don't think I've ever been in a room with "high end issues" (other than maybe a little ping or toppy comb filtering - easily fixed) -- But I also don't think I've ever been in a room that DIDN'T have LOW end issues.

The larger room sounds nice... Everything divisible by 3 (slight bummer) but the vaulted ceiling should take care of a lot of standing wave issues.

 

[rountrjf]

Another pic...

 

[rountrjf]

Small room pics and mic position.