VHS multitrack

  • Thread starter Thread starter themaddog
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Interesting question.

I've just got out my old TDK booklet on their audio and video cassette range around 1990.
TDK list the E180 as having a total thickness of 19.5 u meters. But the C90 audiocassette is listed as having a total thickness of only 12.5 u meters!


So as far as I can tell, the VHS E180 videotape was actually thicker based than the C90 audio cassette.

Interesting too that their shorter videotapes like E 120 and E 60 used exactly the same tape stock, not thicker ones. Just shorter lengths.
You'd think that if there was a durability advantage from thicker tape bases they'd have gone for it in the shorter lengths where there was room in the shell for it. But to be fair, maybe with the delicate setup of a videotape where tolerances are pretty tight, a different thickness tape might have caused more problems than it was worth. I'm only guessing.

I think the main stresses on the videotape were related to the rotating drum and things like staying in pause mode for extended periods when you could literally scrape the coating off the base. Possibly the reason for the apparently tougher tape than with audiocassettes.

In any case those extra stresses on the videotape would not apply in a deck with no head drum.

So that's my reasoning. If a tape can survive a rotating head drum, it can surely survive stationary heads. I dont think we should assume that just because it was a videotape as such that it was fragile. Rather, video required the rotating heads and that was probably the achilles heel of the thing.

I guess the same would apply to DAT tapes and these days to mini DV camera tapes which I use myself, but, I admit, with some trepidation! Three years and so far, so good, but I transfer the data as soon as I can just in case.
Interestingly, DAT tapes are notoriously problematic and arent trusted as archival media. Again, a rotating head configuration.

You mention 7.5ips or 15ips as possibly stressful for the tape. I doubt it would be. For example good quality standard audiocassettes can happily be high speed duplicated at 30ips.

And that's duplicating in the actual cassette shell. Commercial pre recorded recordings could be high speed duplicated serially on pancakes running at over 100 times play speed! So the limiting factor for speed was not the tape but the mechanical abilities of the cassette housing or shell. Cassette tapes couldnt be duplicated much faster than x100 because above that the tape would to "fly", meaning the trapped air between the tape and the record head would lift the tape off the head just enough to reduce recording clarity! We're talking a tape speed approaching 200ips!

From everyday experience we know that VHS, Beta, Umatic and other tapes survive REW and FF at speeds far in excess of the design play speed. And that's not capstan controlled, the preferred method for ideal tape wind.
I dont have a VHS spec list but found an old Beta one. On an L500 tape the average rewind speed (which in a Beta machine meant fully engaged with the head drum) was 46.8cm/sec which translates to well over 15ips (38cm/sec)

Anyway, my thoughts FWIW.

Cheers Tim

More great information, Tim. Thanks!

Does anyone think this is getting interesting again?

Again, with VHS tape being practically free, as well as the sizable boutique market for analogue recording, I think the prospect of linear multi-track recording onto VHS is viable.
 
More great information, Tim. Thanks!

Does anyone think this is getting interesting again?

Again, with VHS tape being practically free, as well as the sizable boutique market for analogue recording, I think the prospect of linear multi-track recording onto VHS is viable.

Dont misunderstand here. I think the design is viable technically but probably not commercially.
Things sell for various reasons. It might be as simple and romantic as, "I must have one of them. It reminds me of my youth"....
An analog VHS multitracker has no history. I suspect no one will manufacture one now because no one will buy it for "retro" or nostalgic reasons.
For many people a device must not only perform. It has to have "the look".

But hey, you never know. People might buy it for its its novelty value.

I suppose you could make it mimic an open reel or front load cassette deck, with the tape sitting vertically on the front face. Then too you could make the tape shells out of clear plastic so people could properly see all the parts in the case, and especially watching the reels go around at fast speed.
The tape path could also be completely visible from the front, maybe behind clear plastic too.
I'm thinking of those old Roland Space Echo tape loop machines. I'm sure half their appeal was watching that long bunched up tape loop snake its way through the machine!

Cheers Tim
 
What Tim said and the fact that any time the word 'boutique' is thrown around, something is pretty expensive.

A 'boutique' solution for hobbyists probably just won't work. With the limited number of people that want something like this, and having to completely redesign the tape path mechanism, you are looking at a pretty expensive piece of gear.

An expensive pro-sumer recorder would be completely useless if it started to approach the cost of a 16 track reel to reel. Even when you factor in the cost of tape.
 
More great information, Tim. Thanks!

Does anyone think this is getting interesting again?

Again, with VHS tape being practically free, as well as the sizable boutique market for analogue recording, I think the prospect of linear multi-track recording onto VHS is viable.

As mentioned previously (4 years ago) :D Akai did this in the mid 80’s with their MG Series12-tracks (14-tracks really) using a proprietary tape shell similar to Betamax. It was expensive at the time and you could only record for 10 minutes at high speed (7.5 ips). I was surprised back then that the idea didn’t catch on with other manufacturers and improved upon, but I think less expensive systems like the Tascam 388 and then 8-track on cassette from TOA and Tascam helped doom the Akai approach.

Also keep in mind the Fostex E-16 came out only a year after the Akai 12-track, followed by the G-16 in 1990. Tascam Also introduced their 16 on ½” in 1989. And as mentioned the Alesis ADAT (early 90's) took further analog development out of the running... unfortunate in retrospect, as it had not yet reached its potential.

It’s an interesting idea, but way past it’s time. Videocassettes are still available but not a great selection of super high grade. IMO, reel-to-reel tape will still be here when the last VHS cassette bites the dust.

One important bit of info to keep in mind is that Quantegy initially went into bankruptcy in 2005 because of a huge decline in videotape demand, which had been the company’s largest source of revenue. Reel-to-reel tape demand actually increased from late 90’s through 2005 during an analog renaissance. It just wasn’t enough to offset the loss of videotape revenue... not with that incompetent management team anyway.

I doubt anyone these days would be willing to invest in a videotape-based analog system, but it was a pretty cool idea back in the day.

:)
 
I suppose you could make it mimic an open reel or front load cassette deck, with the tape sitting vertically on the front face.

My video mastering deck was open reel. Even in the hey day of VHS, tape stock was not cheap.

Another issue with video tape is durability. Audio tape can get dinged a little and still be useable. But ding the control track on video and that section of tape is useless.


Another thing that you need to take into account is editing/punching in. With the Hi-fi track, you just can't hit play/record. You have to use insert edits in order to maintain the control track or else you get a break in the control track and you lose tracking. For the most part, it's not that big of a deal but it requires having to go through setting insert/exit points every time you want to punch in or edit.

And something else to consider... there can be a delay between hitting play and when the hi-fi track gets tracked and is audible. On some machines.. and I worked on high end high dollar pro video machines... it could be up to a couple of seconds.

Ironically, the big format video machines we had.. betacam sp (no relations to betamax), 1" open reel, and Umatic 3/4", all used linear audio tracks. I think the early version of betacam actually had 4 linear tracks.
 
My video mastering deck was open reel. Even in the hey day of VHS, tape stock was not cheap.

Another issue with video tape is durability. Audio tape can get dinged a little and still be useable. But ding the control track on video and that section of tape is useless.


Another thing that you need to take into account is editing/punching in. With the Hi-fi track, you just can't hit play/record. You have to use insert edits in order to maintain the control track or else you get a break in the control track and you lose tracking. For the most part, it's not that big of a deal but it requires having to go through setting insert/exit points every time you want to punch in or edit.

And something else to consider... there can be a delay between hitting play and when the hi-fi track gets tracked and is audible. On some machines.. and I worked on high end high dollar pro video machines... it could be up to a couple of seconds.

Ironically, the big format video machines we had.. betacam sp (no relations to betamax), 1" open reel, and Umatic 3/4", all used linear audio tracks. I think the early version of betacam actually had 4 linear tracks.

We've been talking about linear audio recording using stationary heads, just like on your 1" open reel video and U Matics. No rotary head drum in sight.

So no "irony" about the video machines that relied on linear audio tracks. Linear audio tracks - and nothing else - is what we were talking about!

About the only connection with video recording here is the videotape. Everything else is analog audio.

Cheers Tim
 
Whith all those VHS factories and machinery, might be an idea for them to bring one out, since the technology is in decline?

I think I remember reading about a VHS multi track recorder in the mid 1980's. It was in an english music mag I think which had Bob Moog as one of the writers. I think it was desktop, rectangular, whith mixer and cassette on the right, and I think the specs were about the same as a standard VHS machine.
 
???

Are you sure you're not referring to the Akai MG1212 or MG1214?
(See previous pages).:eek:;)
 
akai mg

is there any reason an akai mg cant be refilled wiht vhs tape or reel to reel tape? i am a mg owner and i have been using nothing but the stock akai tapes. but i was curious because people have told me that you can put other tape in the cartridge. will this mess up the calibration or the heads in any way?
 
Yes. You can get 1/2" reel tape...audio tape. Don't use video tape.

456 equivalent I believe, is that right guys? So RMGI SM911 if that's the case. You could get one reel of it, a pancake, and reload a bunch of shells.
 
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