TSR 8 -vs- 38

[pappy999]

What exactly are the differences between these two tascam machines?

 

[jpmorris]

What exactly are the differences between these two tascam machines?

The TSR-8 is a final-generation machine. It is microprocessor controlled (smoother tape handling) and has integrated DBX noise reduction. It has LED bars instead of VU meters, which are less accurate but easier to read IMHO. It also has only one audio head instead of two, which makes alignment more difficult and you can't do a confidence check on what you're recording.

The Tascam 38 is the previous generation. It is logic-controlled which in theory means it should be easier to repair. It has no DBX, so you'd need two racks of Tascam 4DX if you want noise reduction. Most of the chassis is the same as the '32 and '34, even the channel cards so parts are easier to get. It has two audio heads so you can hear what you've just recorded and alignment is easier. The 30-series have a tendency for the relays to jam though, so they sometimes get stuck in sync or repro monitoring mode - I believe the TSR-8 uses solid-state components for this task instead.

They both have their pro's and cons - I personally prefer the TSR-8, though.

 

[jpmorris]

Oh - one more point, since the TSR-8 is computer-controlled, it can be set up to do automatic punch-in which is an absolute godsend if you're working alone.

That way, you can set it up, tell it to go and then go into the live room for the performance, and the recorder will automatically start and stop recording for the segment you've marked. The only way to do that on a '38 would be to have someone else engineering it, or to use a remote control.

 

[pappy999]

So if I wanted to use the trr-8 as a front end on a DAW then I am SOL?

 

[jpmorris]

So if I wanted to use the trr-8 as a front end on a DAW then I am SOL?

If your aim is to use it as a tape delay, yes. If you want to track to the TSR-8 and play the tape back later, no.

 

[pappy999]

I just want to track into the tape machine first and then into pro tools for the warm tape "feel". I will track drums with other musicians playing at the same time. I have to monitor the drums in my daw. Will the tsr work?

 

[jpmorris]

I just want to track into the tape machine first and then into pro tools for the warm tape "feel". I will track drums with other musicians playing at the same time. I have to monitor the drums in my daw. Will the tsr work?

You'd have to record it and play it back into protools afterwards, lining it up with the other tracks as need be. It can't be done live, since the TSR will only monitor from the input, not back from tape.

The 38 will monitor from tape, but it'll have a delay of around 1/15th of a second. It will won't be live, but it will be closer.

If you're happy with having to import the stuff afterwards rather than using it as an effect with latency, the TSR-8 would do the job. For your purposes the '38 might be a better bet though. It depends exactly how you're planning to use it.

 

[pappy999]

I want the ability to use the tape machine to impart tape "saturation" on my live drum tracks. How do other people do this? I have a live room that I put the drummer in to track with band over headphones. The band in the control room need to be able to hear the drums in real time. Any thoughts?

 

[marshman]

I have an 8 track machine, and I usually record the drums on six of the tracks, bass on the seventh and either guitar or vox on the last. I monitor off the mixer so everyone hears everything in time. We may even have other people playing, and running through the mixer for cueing, just not getting put down on tape.

After we are happy with the take, it gets dumped into the pc and overdubs are done there.

works really nice.

I also take things out of the box to tape and back in now and again, and that works well too. Not as good as tracking to tape first though.

mm

 

[SteveM]

I just want to track into the tape machine first and then into pro tools for the warm tape "feel". I will track drums with other musicians playing at the same time. I have to monitor the drums in my daw. Will the tsr work?

There's only 2 ways to do this that I can see. If you want tape saturation you have to play the tape back after it's been recorded. So you either have to, like I said midi sync it to your DAW in which the DAW will be slave, it will play back in time with the Reel to Reel tracks which then you can transfer over, or you have to record drums simutaneously, transfer them to the DAW, and then line up the drum tracks with the rest of the tracks. The later will depend on how tight the playback is on the tape deck. It sometimes can be tricky but can be done. Best way to do it is to have a click at the beginning of the taped tracks so you can line it up with ones in the DAW when you transfer it over.

 

[Beck]

I want the ability to use the tape machine to impart tape "saturation" on my live drum tracks. How do other people do this? I have a live room that I put the drummer in to track with band over headphones. The band in the control room need to be able to hear the drums in real time. Any thoughts?

If you have good isolation between your live room and control room it's a cinch… just feed the band’s monitor mix from the playback head of the analog deck. That way they’re in sync with the delayed sound.

 

[jpmorris]

If you have good isolation between your live room and control room it's a cinch… just feed the band’s monitor mix from the playback head of the analog deck. That way they’re in sync with the delayed sound.

Of course any other tracks which are going direct to digital won't be, and you cannot do this trick with the TSR-8 because it's only got one audio head. The '38 would work, though.

 

[themaddog]

It may be more trouble than it's worth, going back and forth trying to sync up the tape machine and computer on record and playback.

How many inputs do you have on your computer?

It may be worth it for you to go for a 16 track. I have both an MSR-16 and a TSR-8, both of which use 1/2" tape, and I really can't hear any difference between the two machines as they both have DBX noise reduction. You can see a post I made on comparing these two machines here, if you're interested:

http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=170166&highlight=tsr+msr

With the 16 track, you could do all of your recording onto the tape, dump them into the computer to mix if you prefer (this would necessitate a 16 channel sound card for simplicity), and then if you still need a track or two more, you could record that within the computer.

Recording in this manner will likely give you the most consistent sound, as every track will touch tape before being recorded into the computer. The MSR-16 is an excellent recorder. I once did a three generation, internal bounce, which consisted of recording a vocal track, hitting it with effects and re-recording it onto the MSR, then taking that new track, hitting it with effects again, and re-recording it onto a new track, and there wasn't any audible signal loss or distortion.

Good luck,
-MD

 

[pappy999]

I have 18 inputs that I usually use most depending on the size of the band I am recording. How much do the msr-16s usually go for?

 

[themaddog]

It depends, not usually twice the cost of the 38 or a TSR-8, but sometimes that high. I paid under $1000 including shipping for mine, but the owner was the original owner and had purchased it new in 1997.

I saw one go on eBay Buy it Now for $800 and it included the remote, which normally sells for around $200 on its own.

-MD

 

[FALKEN]

if you went with a 38, you could set up everything into the DAW with the drum tracks (and the bass track, trust me) going through the 38 on repro into the DAW. you would need an external mixer to set it up so that you are monitoring the drums before they hit tape with the rest of the mix. Then, when the take is done, slide the drums back in the DAW. As long as the tape is recorded into the DAW in real time, the drums will line up.

 

[Beck]

Of course any other tracks which are going direct to digital won't be, and you cannot do this trick with the TSR-8 because it's only got one audio head. The '38 would work, though.

Sure, the other tracks going to digital would be in sync. As long as the drummer (or drum machine) is “Time” and the other talent can only hear the delayed drummer… the DAW and the talent hear the same thing. The drummer doesn’t hear the same thing, so if the drummer is interactive or is following this won’t work… unless the drummer is following a scratch track. In that case he’s doing the same thing from his perspective as if he were overlaying drum tracks.

The drummer is in a different time zone than the other talent, but the DAW doesn’t know that. This works with a drum machine or a well-isolated drummer that isn’t interacting with the other talent.

This given a 3-head machine like the 38, which I thought we already determined. It sounds like he wants to do this in real time, but if that weren’t so he could use a 2-head machine as well, record the drums first and have the talent follow the recorded drummer… same thing only more time, so coffee break is an option in between.

There are several ways to do this. Of course recording everything to analog first is best IMO.

I tend to shy away from manipulating time (or doing any editing) in the digital realm since that's more opportunity to corrupt the material.

 

[FALKEN]

I tend to shy away from manipulating time (or doing any editing) in the digital realm since that's more opportunity to corrupt the material.

I will be the first in line to say that plugins, volume changes and automation will corrupt the material. but I cannot see how manipulating time, or mute automation can do that. Of course having each individual track recorded digitally is not going to help in the first place...

 

[pappy999]

What if I recorded everything into Pro Tools and then sent the tracks into tape? Any experience doing this? Would we get that desired tape "sound" this way?

 

[Beck]

What if I recorded everything into Pro Tools and then sent the tracks into tape? Any experience doing this? Would we get that desired tape "sound" this way?

It’s done that way too. If you're going to do it that way you might also consider skipping the process during tracking and getting an analog 2-track for mixdown.

IMO, the greatest benefit comes with getting the drums to tape first. You should really look into synchronization as well. The capability to sync an analog machine with Pro Tools is a powerful option. You can just integrate it into the system and record select tracks on analog at will.