The New Tone Thread

  • Thread starter Thread starter Telegram Sam
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Yeah, I havent even turned the Tweaker on since I got the little Marshall....but, it's still a great little amp that I'll probably use for clean/semi-clean stuff that needs a vintage-y vibe sound, it delivers those really well. The DSL sounds a little more "modern", so I'm pretty happy with my little setup as of right now.

It's took me a year, but I've finally got a pretty good little setup to record with. And, believe it or not, the Line 6 X3Live sounds great in the loop of the Marshall. I was considering selling/trading it off because the only thing useable (for me) with the T15 are a couple of the od stompboxes ran into the front of the amp. Through the loop of the DSL, it sounds pretty good, night & day difference, to me. So, I have chorus, flanger, delay, phase, univibe (several different versions/sounds of each too) that I can actually use.....


I did some tube swapping last weekend too, put the Mullard inV1, GE in V2, & Sylvania in V3, & it made a little improvement, nothing drastic, just kinda smoothed the top end out a little. I still need to change those around, & try a few more tubes (like the 5751's), but that's just screwing around, to be honest, the stock tubes sound good too, again, just something to screw around with...


Happy camper over here, but the tone quest hasn't ended, it never will, it just got better over here!!!!!!
 
Okay bustas, I'll throw some shit back into this thread. I did some testing with a room mic again. I'm not a fan of room mics, but whatever. I gave it a basic try just to check it out again to see if I wanna change my mind. Here's four quick and dumb 3-chord clips for your perusal.

Les Paul - Burstbucker 3 bridge p/u

Marshall JVM410
OD1 Channel - Green mode
Gain - 2.5
Bass- 7
Mid - 4.5
Treb - 5
Resonance - 1
Presence - 2
Channel vol - 6
Master vol - 5

Avatar 2x12 - Vintage 30. (Cab sitting on top of a 4x12)
Shure SM57 on grill at dustcap/cone junction
AT2020 exactly 3 feet from speaker center (I measured that shit)

No processing in DAW. This is exactly as the mics "heard" it.

Here we go:
SM 57 only
AT2020 3ft away
SM57 + AT2020
SM57 + AT2020 w/ phase flipped on room mic

*Note - The clips with the mic tracks blended have the room mic mixed in about 50% with the close mic. With both mic tracks at equal levels the difference in distance from the source is a gigantic phase problem that sounds like ass. :D

Thoughts?
 
The 2 mic/mixed tracks actually sound pretty good to me Greg, seems to give it a little more bottom/oomph. I've tried that with my '57 & condensor, but never really got any results I was happy with. But, that was last year with the Blackstar too, when I was first trying to mic a cab, so I may give it another shot before too long.....

My last post, I mentioned upgrading my p'ups, I think instead of that, I'll buy a few different mics, right now, I only have 3, so I think I'll go the mic route next instead.......maybe.....:D

Sounds pretty good man, did it take a while to get 'em to sound like that??? I've always read about phase issues, & to be honest, I'm pretty lost on that......lemme know if you have any tips about the 2 mic thing......
 
Great stuff Greg, I like the first two clips best, that palm mute work with the 57 is pure awesome tone.
I've been thinking alot about micing from a few feet away, I think yours sounds good.

The palm mutes in the first track sound pro.
It reminds me of the poll somehwere here wherein it is asked if you think you will be able to produce music that sounds as good as a professional studio.
This is exactly the type of thing I had in mind when I answered yes to that question.

On a side note, I got my studio out of my living room today and into my office on a table with a proper chair.
The NS10-M's are 3 feet from my ears in a triangle now and man do they sound night and day awesome.
I can really hear now.
 
Yeah, listening to Greg's samples confirms what I've always discovered. Amps sound better when miked from 1-2 meters away. That 2020 sample was very nice.
 
Thanks a lot guys.

Minerman - Do you have an Audix i5? If not, I think you'd like one. The i5 seems to be a good fit for the kind of tones you're usually trying to get. It's similar to a 57 with I think better lows and smoother upper mids. And at only ~$100 it's a good value. I got one recently and I really like it. It did not take long at all to set everything up. I just stuck a 57 on the cab as usual in my usual go-to spot, and put the AT2020 some distance away making sure that it's pointed at the cab. At first it was about 2-2.5 feet away and it sounded stupid. So I thought about the 3:1 rule and put that bitch exactly 3 feet from the cab, exactly dead center. Took less than 3 minutes to move stuff around. I fiddled the input gain on the mic preamps to make them match, and hit record. It took longer to find a good balance between the two tracks. I used the close-mic track as the main track, and blended the room track until it just barely added some "flavor". Too much room track and phase issues become a problem. I blended in the room track right at the threshhold of being phasey. If I have a chance today or this weekend, I'm gonna do another test with the room mic 6 ft away. I think it would sound better overall with the cab on the floor.

Sam - Thanks bud. I think I'm getting to a point where my shit is getting pretty dialed in. I still prefer the one 57 and let er rip method, but this little test at least re-opened the door in my mind to using a room mic. Congrats on getting your monitor set up better suited for listening. Get your new room treated for mixing and you'll really be able to hear.

Seafroggys - I find it interesting that you'd say that. I think the "room" track sounds ghastly by itself. I'd never use it in that way. I like what it adds to the close mic track, but by itself is not good to my ears. I much, much prefer the close 57 track. Having said that, this was tracked in a totally dead, very well treated room with bass traps and broadband panels everywhere. Right outside my "studio" doors is the front entryway to my house which is a semi-large, open cathedral like space that's connected to a long hallway and the whole area is very resonant. Maybe I'll try this again with the cab out there.

Thanks again fellas. My own observations are this: I like the 57 by itself track the best. I'm an in-your-face-sound kind of guy and I like close mics on everything. I typically do not like ambiance or room mics. I despise the room mic track, but I do like what it adds to the close mic track with careful blending. And of the two blended tracks, I prefer the "phase flipped" track. It has better low mids to me.
 
Thanks for the info Greg,
I'm looking at the i5, along with the Sennheiser e609 too. The condensor I have isn't that great (Samson C0-1), but it might work for a room thing, again, I tried that about a year ago, but didn't spend enough time to set it up right, so just kept on with the 1 mic thing....I'll give that a shot this weekend, as this will be the only 2 day weekend I'm gonna have for almost 2 months. Bastards I work for are making us work every Saturday until vacation (starts June 30th)....sucks, but I have no choice, it's either work, or find another job, which are getting harder & harder to find around here......sorry for the rant.....

Cool clips man, again, I'll give the 2 mic thing a shot this weekend, hell, I might even get a useable tone...:D
 
I have both the e609 and the i5. Never used the i5 on guitars, always use the e609 as my close mic.

@Greg, I guess it depends on how things sound in the mix. To me, the close mic sounds kinda fizzy, with the distant mic more of a 'natural' sound. Of course, the 2020 isn't the best mic in the world, I tend to use ribbons as my distant mic (distant being 1-2 meters away) and I always get good results with that. Now if I was only going to use one mic, I'd probably do a close mic.
 
Yeah the AT2020 is a piece of shit, but I don't care. I use it for vocals only and I'm not that interested in the best vocal takes in the world. I could record my kind of vocals with any old mic. I have an e609 as well, and it's my least favorite cab mic. IMO the 57 and i5 kill it to death.
 
Telegram Sam said:
Thanks Seeker.
I'm going to listen to all these tones tonight.
Here are some tones I'm working on.
I've had ideas for several songs bouncing around in my head for a while,
which is why I started recording again.
This one is in three parts, I've finished this scratchpad of the guitars
and now if I am going to do it, it is going to be a lot of effort.
I don't want to get half way through and decide to abandon it altogether.

My questions are; the beginning, too fast / slow, is the tone going to be ok mixed with
base, maybe some synth winds and sparse percussion or is it going to need some chorus / flange / effect?
I was kind of hoping to keep it clean.

The middle, is it original enough?

Any other thoughts before I start tracking in earnest?

I am going to flesh out each section into longer pieces and set the spacing appropriately,
any word on how long they should be?

Very cool stuff Sam!

radio
Click to expand...
 
Got some new speakers today on loan from a buddy. Four Celestion G12-65's. Not reissues or chinese - real brit made 65's! Been wanting to try these for a while. If I did this right, which is questionable, the date codes according to Celestion read Oct/Nov 1981.

My Marshall 1960a 4x12 currently sits with G12T-75s and Greenbacks X-patterned. I really like the sound of the cab in the room, but I never mic the G12T-75s anymore. For recording I always use the Greenbacks or my Vintage 30s that reside in a different cab. So the G12T-75's will come out of the 4x12 and the 65's will go in their place. G12-65's and Greenbacks x-patterned should sound totally righteous, but we'll see. I'm mostly interested in how they sound with a mic stuck right on them. Clips coming soon....

 
The 57 alone could be AC/DC anytime anywhere -
The phase flipped blend is even better.
The toggle at the end is nice too.
 
Very nice speakers Greg,
Since you're gonna x-pattern 'em & only use 2, just send me one of 'em....or one of the GT-75's....or one of each....
:D
Seriously though, I bet they sound good all by themselves, & I'm sure any clip you post, whether it be with a Greenback, V30, or a Radio Shack speaker, you could make it sound good.....
;)


Waiting on the clips dude....
 
Greg_L said:
Got some new speakers today on loan from a buddy. Four Celestion G12-65's. Not reissues or chinese - real brit made 65's! Been wanting to try these for a while. If I did this right, which is questionable, the date codes according to Celestion read Oct/Nov 1981.

My Marshall 1960a 4x12 currently sits with G12T-75s and Greenbacks X-patterned. I really like the sound of the cab in the room, but I never mic the G12T-75s anymore. For recording I always use the Greenbacks or my Vintage 30s that reside in a different cab. So the G12T-75's will come out of the 4x12 and the 65's will go in their place. G12-65's and Greenbacks x-patterned should sound totally righteous, but we'll see. I'm mostly interested in how they sound with a mic stuck right on them. Clips coming soon....
Click to expand...

Those speakers should sound beastly with your amp. My Marshall 1982 cab has a pair of G12-65 and a pair of G12H30 blackbacks and it sounds killer with every amp that I've run through it.
 
rayc said:
The 57 alone could be AC/DC anytime anywhere -
The phase flipped blend is even better.
The toggle at the end is nice too.
Click to expand...
Thanks Ray. I'm liking the sounds I've been getting lately.

minerman said:
Very nice speakers Greg,
Since you're gonna x-pattern 'em & only use 2, just send me one of 'em....or one of the GT-75's....or one of each....
:D
Seriously though, I bet they sound good all by themselves, & I'm sure any clip you post, whether it be with a Greenback, V30, or a Radio Shack speaker, you could make it sound good.....
;)


Waiting on the clips dude....
Click to expand...
Haha, well let's see how these sound and maybe I'll sell you my G12T-75s. I'll buy the 65's from this guy if I like them. He's a good buddy and he needs cash, so they could easily be mine.

ocnor said:
Those speakers should sound beastly with your amp. My Marshall 1982 cab has a pair of G12-65 and a pair of G12H30 blackbacks and it sounds killer with every amp that I've run through it.
Click to expand...
Sweet, yeah I've been curious about these 65's for a while. I've heard so many good things about them, like "if you like Greenbacks you'll love 65's". Well I love Greenbacks, so....I have high hopes. On paper the 65's should blend beautifully with the Greenbacks. The G12T-75 & GB is a wonderful combination. I'm thinking this could be better.
 
Lol, okay. Here's a 4-way speaker "shootout". Same guitar, same amp, same amp settings, same mic, different speakers and I tried my best to mic them all similarly. There are variables of course, but fuck it. For my purposes, this is how it is.

We've got all Celestions - G12-65, G12T-75, G12M Greenback, and a Vintage 30. The Vintage 30 is with another V30 in their own 2x12 cab. The others are all in a 4x12. The G12-65 is, for me, the wild card here because I just got them and I'm already keenly familiar with the other three. My end goal, partially pending the results of this test, is to have the Greenbacks and G12-65s X-patterned in the 4x12, and the two G12T-75s will go bye-bye for now. So for this test, only one G12-65 and one G12T-75 is in the cab, along with two Greenbacks. The Greenbacks are not going anywhere. They are my favorites. The V30s are also staying put in their 2x12. So this really just boils down to the G12-65 vs the G12T-75. The clips are just a simple quick little power chord riff with some chugs. More gain than my last clips. One SM57 mic and no processing in the DAW.

Gibson Les Paul Burstbucker 3 bridge pickup
Marshall JVM410
OD1 channel Orange mode
Same tone and vol settings as my last clip a few posts back.
Only difference is I used a higher gain channel mode on the amp.
All speakers mic'd on axis, on the grill, at dustcap/cone junction.

G12-65 + 57
G12T-75 + 57
G12M Greenback + 57
Vintage 30 + 57

I have a few thoughts and observations. What do you think?
 
the 65's are a bit brighter than the 75's ..... the 75's seem to have a bit more low-end thump ..... the V30's are dramatically different than all the others.
For your music I'd give the edge to the 65's over the 75's. If you were a metal player it'd be the other way around.
 
Lt. Bob said:
the 65's are a bit brighter than the 75's ..... the 75's seem to have a bit more low-end thump ..... the V30's are dramatically different than all the others.
For your music I'd give the edge to the 65's over the 75's. If you were a metal player it'd be the other way around.
Click to expand...

I agree. The G12T-75s massive low end is better suited for the metalz. As I suspected, I like the G12-65s much better than the 75s. They're a lot more like the 75s than I thought they'd be though. They have big lows like the 75s but with a tighter and clearer midrange and top end. They're definitely a better fit for my style than the 75s.

The 65 & 75 clips are unfortunately slightly misleading though. The dustcap is so gigantic on both of those speakers, the mic is a little further out towards the edge than it is when miking the same dustcap/cone spot on the Greenbacks and V30s, which each have much smaller dustcaps. The Greenback clip seems a little bright, but I think that's more due to the mic position being closer to the center because the dustcap is smaller. In any case, they're all better to me than the G12T-75s which have already been yanked and the G12-65s permanently installed. :D
 
Greg_L said:
The dustcap is so gigantic on both of those speakers, the mic is a little further out towards the edge than it is when miking the same dustcap/cone spot on the Greenbacks and V30s, which each have much smaller dustcaps. The Greenback clip seems a little bright, but I think that's more due to the mic position being closer to the center because the dustcap is smaller.
Click to expand...
I always set the mic position relative to the speaker's edge rather than the dustcap for that very reason.
 
Lt. Bob said:
I always set the mic position relative to the speaker's edge rather than the dustcap for that very reason.
Click to expand...

Yup, totally. I thought about approximating the exact same spot on each speaker regardless of where the dustcap is, but that would maybe involve more guesswork on my part and it's hard as shit to see through the grill on my 2x12. The dusctap/cone junction is an easy spot to pinpoint though on just about any speaker, so I ran with it. Dustcap/cone is my favorite spot on the V30's.

I'm throwing some bass and fake ass drums on these clips so we can see how they all sit in a mix. More dumb clips coming.......
 
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