The New Tone Thread

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Had myself a little mini-shootout with the band using this little 20w Krank jobbie and a 2x12 w/ WGS Veteran 30s compared to my 50w JMP and a 4x12 w/ Greenbacks/G12-65s. The results were exactly as I suspected, but I wanted to try it anyway.



Obviously, this was like an NFL football team playing against a high school team. Naturally my Marshall is totally....a Marshall. It's the quintessential Marshall. It's crunchy as all hell and cuts like a Ginsu knife through a tin can. It's obviously more than happy to play live and loud with a band. My goal here was just to see how well the little rig would work with the whole band playing in a large room using the Marshall rig as the "control". First off, the little Krank at 20 tubed watts was plenty loud enough. Was it a good loud? Not really to me, but it was adequate and plenty good enough for a practice or jam session. It's basic voicing is very modern no matter how you spin the dials, but it's usable. The problem IMO was the cab. Being a small 2x12 standing up, flat and coupled to the floor, it didn't cut or fill the room at all. I felt it in my feet, and crouching down in front it sounded fine, but as soon as you'd stand up and move around, it would get dark and vanish. Even tilting it back and/or laying it flat and back to project up into space it still sounded very dark as you got away from it, which made me want to crank it louder and dial in a ton of mids and highs. But then it's ear gouging and deadly bright right in front of it. So it's a tough rig to dial in. That cab projected it's sound in a very narrow cylinder of sound, so to speak. With my 4x12, it's like a thunderstorm of sound no matter where you stand. The other guys couldn't hear me with the little 2x12. So while to me the head was good enough, the cab just aint gonna work unless it's mic'd and run through the PA. So I wasn't impressed with the Krank + 2x12 all by itself.

I didn't bother with this next idea, but I suspect the little head into the big cab would work great with the exception of me simply not liking it's tone that much. But for pure functionality, the head is powerful enough, and the cab fills the room. My problem with that is hauling a head isn't a big deal at all. A head is nothing to load, haul, and carry. The only real benefit to a small rig is ease of transport, so if I still have to use the 4x12 just to sound good un-mic'd, then wtf is the point of the smaller head? To me, there isn't one. If I'm wheeling out the 4x12, I'm not saving any effort, time, or space by also bringing the little head. The 4x12 is what I'd want to cut out of the equation, and I can't do that, so the Marshall halfstack is the way to go! :D

Like there was any doubt. ;)
 
Greg_L said:
Sounds pretty good. Closer to the edge? Maybe off-axis? Sounds like it's got a little of the woof that you get away from the center, but still has clarity. I like.
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Thanks dude, I'm sure you know this is an ampsim too, right??? Marshall head > 2 different cabs blended (the mics were supposed to be off-axis, so you're spot on as usual...), with a touch of room 'verb & "tube" compressor, all from AT3...

You know, if you learn each one (I'm really liking AT3, that's what's on the clip...), the good/bad that each one does, the tones are very useable IMHO.....I've learned a lot in just the last little while about these things....What I really like about AT3 is the amps/pedals they've modeled are pretty accurate (as far as I can tell anyway...), I recorded some stuff last night with my Ibanez > SD-1 > inteface, & A/B'd the modeled SD-1 pedal in AT3, & it's really hard to tell the difference. My pedal might have a touch more high end, but I've got C6 clipped in it too (that's basically a high pass filter, & is basically bypassed in my pedal, so it gets really bright if I crank the tone knob...), but really, it's pretty damn close...

The Marshall clip I posted a couple weeks ago was A/B'd with the real AFD 100's clips, & again, it's hard to tell the difference....Another thing I've been doing is using 2-3 of the parametric eq's in the rack, fine-tuning the sound to sound like the amp(s) I'm trying to ape (I've learned this is pretty much the "key" to the tones in AT3, the rack eq's make a huge difference, that's how I got the VH sound btw....)....I'm still not giving up on my little tube amp setup (or the half-stack I plan on buying), but again, these things just keep impressing me, & the best thing is I can record with 'em at any time, totally silent.....I've been looking at the Fractal things, but that's really just too much $$$ right now, but I can say about everything I've heard 'em do is very impressive.....Out of all the modelers/ampsims I have, I'm getting really partial to AT3 over Guitar Rig 5, TH2, POD Farm 2, ReValver & all the freebies I have...Blending the different mics with different cabs makes for some pretty good tones (IMO anyway), but you have to tweak 'em, most, if not all of the stock presets suck, & about 90% of the presets I've downloaded suck too, I think it's best to make your own to be honest.....

Good little review of the Krank amp dude, that's about how I thought you'd feel about it, I know you like "vintage" type tones, & from what I've read/heard, those amps (Krank) are more for a "modern" sound.....But, I bet if you stuck an eq in the loop, & ran it through one of your 4x12's recorded, nobody would be able to tell the difference...

I saw in another thread you're getting the "Hot Blooded" sound out of your new amp, cool. I can get pretty close to "Double Vision" with my Strat (HB p'up) > SD-1 (clean boost) > T15 > Greenback, or I did a couple months ago anyway.....And, if I bump the gain up, that sound's pretty close to Alice In Chains' "Them Bones", same amp settings, mic position, just more gain...
 
That's cool. I only played with Amplitube very briefly with a demo copy, and I didn't like it. I've never used the full version. IMO it was the fizziest of all the major sim programs and required the most tweaking. The presets suck for all of them. I personally liked Guitar Rig the best of the few I've played with. Revalver was a close second place but it crashed my computer every time. But like everything else I do, I didn't get too technical with it. In G.R. I never used any presets (the "Ramones" presets were laughable). IIRC, the "Jump" and "Lead 800" were the heads I liked, which in real-world terms are a master vol JMP and JCM 800. I'd use two "British 60s" cabs, I think that's what they were called. And two 57s. Pretty basic just like I do with real amps. I also liked the "Twang Reverb" (LOL) and the "Citrus" which is obviously an Orange wannabe. The Mesa and Hi-Watt stuff was terrible. The two versions of Plexis were terrible. The Tweeds and high gain stuff was terrible. I only liked those two Marshall head sims, the Fender thing, and the Orange. There was also this master control cab room thing in which you could place and move and pan and blend something like 7 or 8 famous mics on one cab. It had a 57, R121, MD421, 906, etc. All these all-time great mics for cabs at one time. That was pretty neat but I never got that involved with it. To me, the real kicker with Guitar Rig was the "air" knob. Judicious use of that little control really adds the depth and chunk that most sims lack.

Then I started tracking with my buddies modded JCM 800 and that was the end of my sim experiment.
 
Greg_L said:
That's cool. I only played with Amplitube very briefly with a demo copy, and I didn't like it. I've never used the full version. IMO it was the fizziest of all the major sim programs and required the most tweaking. The presets suck for all of them. I personally liked Guitar Rig the best of the few I've played with. Revalver was a close second place but it crashed my computer every time. But like everything else I do, I didn't get too technical with it. In G.R. I never used any presets (the "Ramones" presets were laughable). IIRC, the "Jump" and "Lead 800" were the heads I liked, which in real-world terms are a master vol JMP and JCM 800. I'd use two "British 60s" cabs, I think that's what they were called. And two 57s. Pretty basic just like I do with real amps. I also liked the "Twang Reverb" (LOL) and the "Citrus" which is obviously an Orange wannabe. The Mesa and Hi-Watt stuff was terrible. The two versions of Plexis were terrible. The Tweeds and high gain stuff was terrible. I only liked those two Marshall head sims, the Fender thing, and the Orange. There was also this master control cab room thing in which you could place and move and pan and blend something like 7 or 8 famous mics on one cab. It had a 57, R121, MD421, 906, etc. All these all-time great mics for cabs at one time. That was pretty neat but I never got that involved with it. To me, the real kicker with Guitar Rig was the "air" knob. Judicious use of that little control really adds the depth and chunk that most sims lack.

Then I started tracking with my buddies modded JCM 800 and that was the end of my sim experiment.
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I was the same way about AT3 (the fizz thing) for a long time, but really, you have to tweak it dude. I know you're a plug-n-play kinda guy, & I am too, to a point, but really, I think AT3 is the best sim going (not including the Kemper & Fractal things, which I don't really consider ampsims myself....to me, an ampsim is software on the computer, a modeler is a hardware thing, like the Fractal/POD....that's just me though...) if you spend enough time to learn it's strong points and weak points...

For the past couple weeks or so, I've sat down & really went through AT3 finding out what it's strong points/weak points are, & so far, I'm impressed to be honest. But I will say the amps/cabs that should sound the best (like the Greenback cab for example) don't IMO, I've found the cabs especially are what you have to keep going through until you find something useable/good, & it's usually something that wouldn't even be thought of that sounds the best...IE: When I was screwing around with the last tone I posted, I used a Marshall head (I wanted "that" crunchy thing), but IIRC, I used a Greenback cab, blended with a Vox cab, the GB for the highs/bite/clarity, & the Vox for the bottom/chunk, if I'm thinking correctly, with real amps/cabs, wouldn't it be the other way around???


The "trick" I've learned about getting a "chunky" tone with AT3 are the mics. It's got 18 (I think), & I usually use the '57 for the "bite"/bright part of the sound, & blend it with the Velo-8 (which is supposed to be a Groove Tubes Velo-8 mic) & it sounds pretty good. Another mic I like blended with the Velo-8 is the "bottle condensor" (which is supposed to be a Neumann CMV-563) which is actually a little brighter than the '57....You can change the mic placement from close/far, & moving the mic(s) toward the edge of the speaker is supposed to be an "off-axis", but it doesn't change the angle of the mic(s), which is one thing I don't like about it, if they could fix/change that, it'd be even better (IMO anyway....)...

All the ampsims I have are different, & have their good/bad things, I wish I could combine all the good things I like about each of 'em, & eliminate all the things I hate about 'em, but that'll never happen...

I think I'm gonna try some tones using different elements of each one (IE: GR's Marshall amp(s) w/AT3's cabs/mics, with TH2's fx for instance), just to see what kind of tones can be had....I could use ReValver's VST host thing to do this (you can load any vst fx inside of it, in any order you want), so there might be a way for me to pull this crazy shit off....:D

Sorry for the long post, but I'm like a fucking little kid playing with his new Tonka trucks when I get rolling on this shit....

And, again, I'm not giving up on my real amps/cabs, but they're nowhere near as versatile as the software I have, the DSL & T15 are great, & I wouldn't part with 'em at all, I'm really liking the ampsim thing the last couple weeks though...

I'll post up some tones in a little while.....if I don't fall asleep on the couch again....:yawn::D
 
Well Bob, you're right dude, but you knew what I meant...:D

I did a little tone chasing/tracking today, but I've ran out of time, I'll post 'em up tonight when I get home, nothing special (my tones never are to be honest), just me screwing around as usual.....

Damn I hope I don't have to work tomorrow, that fucking place sucks, & they never tell us until the very last minute whether we've gotta work Saturday or not...Can't make any plans, can't do anything, bunch of fuckin' pricks.....OK, rant over, see you guys about 12 or so tonight....:laughings:
 
Ok, here's a completely "fake" mix/song, using all software (ampsims, drum vsti, & midi bass vsti) just for shits-n-giggles.....Lemme know what you guys think, it's pretty sloppy, especially the lead guitar, this was a one-take/off the top of my head thing when I hit record....






Oh, btw, the little experiment I was trying (mix-n-match the ampsim thing) really didn't work out like I hoped....Every time I tried to use ReValver's vst host thing, blam, the fucking thing crashed (just Reaper, not the whole computer/blue screen thing, I'd been pissed off really bad if that'd happened btw...). I've never had a crash since I bought this computer over 3 years ago....Dunno what's up with it, but I tried it 3-4 times & same thing everytime....

And, what little time I did do this (just inserting the different ampsims in Reaper's track fx thing), it sounded ok, but some of the routing was kinda fucked up (like a stereo thing > mono), & I honestly just didn't care for it....It could be done, but I'd have to be kinda picky about which ampsim/fx & in what order, so fuck it, just use 'em like I always have....

On this "song" I did use the wah from POD Farm instead of AT3, I just had better control over the effect for some reason. The wah on this is all automation btw, just drew in the curves to make the pedal move up/down...

Might post some more shit tomorrow, dunno, gotta go see my old man, that's priority #1 for Sundays from now on, don't know how many Sundays he'll have to be honest, so I'm gonna try to make the most of it, while I can......

Lemme know what ya think about the "song", how bad you really think it sucks.....

And, Groovy, did you roll your ass back to the cave??? I'm surprised Greg's been so nice this long to be honest dude....Did you ever get revenge on those rabid schnauzers that almost ate you & then threw you off a cliff??? Sorry man, I just had to....:laughings:
 
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minerman said:
Ok, here's a completely "fake" mix/song, using all software (ampsims, drum vsti, & midi bass vsti) just for shits-n-giggles.....Lemme know what you guys think, it's pretty sloppy, especially the lead guitar, this was a one-take/off the top of my head thing when I hit record....






Oh, btw, the little experiment I was trying (mix-n-match the ampsim thing) really didn't work out like I hoped....Every time I tried to use ReValver's vst host thing, blam, the fucking thing crashed (just Reaper, not the whole computer/blue screen thing, I'd been pissed off really bad if that'd happened btw...). I've never had a crash since I bought this computer over 3 years ago....Dunno what's up with it, but I tried it 3-4 times & same thing everytime....

And, what little time I did do this (just inserting the different ampsims in Reaper's track fx thing), it sounded ok, but some of the routing was kinda fucked up (like a stereo thing > mono), & I honestly just didn't care for it....It could be done, but I'd have to be kinda picky about which ampsim/fx & in what order, so fuck it, just use 'em like I always have....

On this "song" I did use the wah from POD Farm instead of AT3, I just had better control over the effect for some reason. The wah on this is all automation btw, just drew in the curves to make the pedal move up/down...

Might post some more shit tomorrow, dunno, gotta go see my old man, that's priority #1 for Sundays from now on, don't know how many Sundays he'll have to be honest, so I'm gonna try to make the most of it, while I can......

Lemme know what ya think about the "song", how bad you really think it sucks.....

And, Groovy, did you roll your ass back to the cave??? I'm surprised Greg's been so nice this long to be honest dude....Did you ever get revenge on those rabid schnauzers that almost ate you & then threw you off a cliff??? Sorry man, I just had to....:laughings:
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That's not bad at all. Sounds convincing enough to me. One thing I didn't like about the wah is that it stayed a little thin. Even into the low part of it's sweep, it never really got fat like most wahs do. Is there an adjustment you can make for that?
 
Thanks Greg,
AFAIK, there's no adjustment like mentioned on the wah, the guitar tone underneath the wah is kinda thin too, so I'd say that had a little to do with it too....No work for me today (my boss called & the substation that supplies the power blew up...:laughings:), so I've got the "song" open, & have been working on it today, trying to turn it into an actual song....

I'm gonna put another similar sounding guitar on the song, & pan 'em out, add vocals, etc., but it'll be a while really. I guess I'm too picky about my sounds & such, but I dont want it to sound like shit either...:D

I'll have a look at the wah, but I don't think there's anything you can adjust like that. I could give the guitar track some more bottom/chunk, don't really remember what I did to that to be honest, I may have all the lows cut out to make it fit into the mix easier....

Had a quick look at the wah track, & I've got a hp/lp filter (100hz/10,000khz), bass is dialed down pretty low on the "amp", & the mics are blended more on the high end side, so I may be able to give it some more low end to fatten it up....The wah doesn't have any type of adjustment at all, I can change the wah itself, but the only parameter on all of 'em is the filter/pedal up/down thing, so, that's about all I can do is bump the bottom end on the amp & use the darker sounding mics....Almost forgot, I've got a 7-band stomp eq before the amp with the mids bumped up pretty high, & that's probably got a lot to do with the "thin" sound too....

Be back in a while, gonna grab a bite to eat & take a break from the daw.....
 
I'm uploading a bunch of comparison clips right now, dunno if I'll put 'em all up here or not, there's a bunch, but gonna let you hear the difference in each ampsim's wah thingie to see if you think one's better than the other....
 
OK, here's a bunch of comparison clips, all the same performance, all the same basic tone, with the exception I used a bunch of different wah pedals from different ampsims to see if you guys think any of 'em are any better than others....

This is all automation (like in the last clip), I just copied/pasted the automation curve into each wah's own automation track/lane/envelope...

I will say I need to smooth out the envelope points here/there, it sounds "glitchy" in spots (lots of it actually), I'm guessing where the pedal is moving in an un-natural way (& probably impossible to do with your foot btw), so overlook the glitch-y sounds....

AT3 "Wah":


AT3 "Wah 10":


AT3 "Wah 46":


AT3 "Wah 47":


POD Farm "Weeper":


POD Farm "Conductor":


GR5 "Wah Wah":


GR5 "Real Wah":


GR5 "Cry Wah":


TH2 "Rock Wah":


TH2 "Crying Wah":


On the question about being able to tweak the frequency/filter Greg, GR5 is the only one that has that, & IIRC.....

I did try ReValver's 2 wah's, but I'd have to do a bunch of tweaking/changing the automation curves, so I left those out because I'm a lazy fucker....:D

But, any of these wah's could be used in a mix really, I can't decide between AT3 & GR5, but really, there isn't that much difference, & again, any of 'em would work in a mix...

Yeah, I'm pretty bored tonight, so thought I'd screw around with these to pass the time....
 
AT3 Wah 47
GR5 Cry Wah
TH2 Crying Wah
those sound the best to moi.

All others are either too thin or too 'peaky'
 
Cool. That's a lot of clips. I agree with Lt that "AT3 Wah 47" and "TH2 Crying Wah" are nice. I personally liked "Podfarm Conductor" the best. It had a nice thick mellowness to it. The rest mostly sounded the same to me.
 
Thanks for listening to the clips guys, I almost shortened 'em to about 20-30 seconds, but didn't because they might not've been long enough to actually hear the differences (if there are any) between the different wahs....

I actually could've uploaded a few more, but it was pointless really, as they really all sounded the same....

I did some more piddling/testing late last night trying to get the "glitch" sound out, it'd take some time, but I think it could be done. What would work even better is to have a midi pedal thing, just to use like a wah, but,I don't have one, & probably ain't gonna plunk the $$$ on one either. I could set up my midi keyboard to use a slider for it too (I've got it set up on Reaper's track volume(s) when I mix, I use the slider as a fader...)...

When I was trying out the different wah's, I thought you'd like the Conductor from POD Farm, Greg, it seems to have less high end than the others, & isn't as shrill as some of 'em are.....Peaky, good word Bob!!!

The TH2 models are pretty good too, but I'll probably just stick with what's best in whatever ampsim I'm using, in this case, one of 'em in AT3, as I'm using it more & more it seems....

TH2 is a good ampsim too, but to be honest, I haven't dug too deep into it, the mics are moveable like in AT3, but, you can't put 'em off-axis in TH2 either, must be some kind of limitation the developers hit, or, it's a lot more work that they just don't wanna do...I will say, in TH2, there's a volume slider for a 45 degree mic, supposed to be a '57, but I really never use it, as it just doesn't sound that good to me....The amps & cabs in TH2 are pretty good though, especially the Lynch Box models (Plexi, Super Lead, Mr. Scary are my favs of those), & the Randall amps/cabs are decent also...I'm not a big fan of the fx in this ampsim though to be honest, GR5 has 'em all beat on fx, but IMHO, for just the amp/cab sound, AT3 has the edge on all of 'em....

Again, thanks for the listens & comments guys, gonna go play with my toys for a couple hours, then head off to work....
 
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