That Sync'ing Feeling

[A Reel Person]

ONCE upon a time,...

I had a desire to sync two or more analog decks, such as the Tascam 388, 644, 688, 238, MSR-Series R/R or any variety of midline Fostex R/R decks.

Over time I'd accumulated the analog decks above and ultimately a Fostex 4030/4035 Synchronizer/Controller, including connecting cables and manuals. Don't ask me why I didn't source Tascam synchronizers, but the Fostex units seemed more easily accessible, overall, including available documentation. Sync on Tascam decks seems a black hole of uncertainty, with scant little documentation or hardware offered or available.

Still, after getting a fair amount of stuff that's capable of sync, I'd decided at a certain point that it was too complicated, too cumbersome, and not as good a solution as sizing up to another deck with more tracks,... which I've also done.

Now, revisiting the issue of Sync,... I still think it's a big hassle, but I have this nagging curiosity to make it happen, regardless.

Having read (skimmed) the 4030/4035 manual, I've determined the Fostex sync system uses a 20-pin straight-thru (8540) cable compatible with "Accessory 1" ports. Almost a plug-and-play solution for Fostex decks, where certain decks are controlled by "voltage" and other decks controlled by "frequency",.... a minor differentiation or concern, really.

Here's the question: Though I have Tascam recorders capable of sync,... and I guess I could crawl around consoles or rummage thru my closet for the answer,... but doesn't the Tascam line of advanced recorders also have an "Accessory 1" port,... and if so,... should I consider this plug/play compatible with the Fostex line of "Accessory 1"'s? Wasn't "Accessory 1" an industry standard interface?

Should this be the case, (still wondering), couldn't the aforementioned Tascam recorders also be plug/play with the Fostex sync controller, using the standard Fostex (8540) I/F cable?

I was just wondering if anyone on this board had any solid opinion or experience with the issue of sync and/or "Accessory 1" compatibility between brands?

I know it's a narrow focus of interest, as I've come to believe that ultimate sync'ing of analog recorders is a little known technique, or long forgotten in this now mostly digital-driven field of interest.

... or maybe I'm just bored, enough to post these open ended questions online?

If sync was a little more demystified I might consider doing it, despite it seeming like a big tangle of wires and cumbersome setup almost not worth doing.

What really drives this question in my mind is that I have this gear on hand, but have had little desire or effort to implement it, due to it's inherent complexity.

As stated above, a single recorder with more tracks ultimately seemed easier and more practical a solution to this problem than synchronization.

Next question: Under the circumstances, should I just limit my implementation of sync to the documented and plug/play compatibility of Fostex/Fostex systems?

Note: I saw on Ebay once that a gentleman had configured and sold an entire system consisting of a Fostex reel 8-track, 4030 synchronizer, but was driven thru SMPTE by code recorded on the audio track of a Hi-8 video camcorder. Honestly, the concept of syncing my multitracks to a video deck always fascinated me, as I'd be only too glad to shoot my own music videos with full and lush soundtracks.

Is this really a question at all?

Does anyone have any useful tips or advice on this whole subject?

I know a post like this will draw numerous "humorous" responses with little substance, but I'm still sorta interested in implementing "sync" on systems I already own. Don't ask me why. Maybe I'm a masochist in this regard.

Once, on another forum, I'd located a guy who had two 388's synchronized, and was a system he raved about. When prying him for details, he said "someone else set it up for me, so I can't help you". Thought I had a good lead, but hit a brick wall with that one.

I'll look forward to your replies,... I think.

Good day!!!

 

[jpmorris]

Here's the question: Though I have Tascam recorders capable of sync,... and I guess I could crawl around consoles or rummage thru my closet for the answer,... but doesn't the Tascam line of advanced recorders also have an "Accessory 1" port,... and if so,... should I consider this plug/play compatible with the Fostex line of "Accessory 1"'s? Wasn't "Accessory 1" an industry standard interface?

The TSR-8 does have an Accessory/1 port. That machine uses the FM capstan control method, so it's likely to be the same on the others.

Should this be the case, (still wondering), couldn't the aforementioned Tascam recorders also be plug/play with the Fostex sync controller, using the standard Fostex (8540) I/F cable?

I almost got a Lynx to talk to the TSR-8. I couldn't quite get the capstan control to work, though. That said, I was trying to drive a machine that the Lynx wasn't really designed to drive and I had to improvise with the cables.

If sync was a little more demystified I might consider doing it, despite it seeming like a big tangle of wires and cumbersome setup almost not worth doing.

It's handy if you need more tracks and don't have a 16-track machine or wish to avoid a digital setup. I've done it a couple of times, but it's not something I do on a day-to-day basis, since it is kind of cumbersome, and many of my songs simply don't need more than 7 tracks anyway.

But there is a big "OMG, it works!" feeling when you get it to go, and it is fun to watch.

 

[A Reel Person]

Thanx!

I'm warming up to the idea, but for having limited time to tinker around with techy stuff. I may do some experiments with it at some future time, maybe soon/TBA.

It's not so much that I "need" it, (I don't), but I find it interesting,.... especially the prospect of sync'ing audio to video is more interesting to me lately.

I'd originally wanted to sync a few 388's together, which admittedly would be pretty impressive, but for the 388's old-school "parallel" i/f which was implemented in the 388 then abandoned for the more modern "serial" i/f of "Accessory 1" type in later models. Not only that, but the large Elco type connector and all the DIY custom wiring that would be required,... pretty much put me off the idea for the most part.

Still thinking about it, though.

Thanx again!

 

[themaddog]

Snycing a 238 and a 688 shouldn't be too difficult. I know you have the Fostex equipment, but I have done it with the Tascam Midiizer and I'm kind of an idiot when it comes to making cables and stuff. I only have one accessory cable, but was still able to slave an MSR-16 to a computer.

Of course, when dealing with a computer, the smartest thing to do is have the tape machine be the master, in which case you wouldn't even need an accessory cable, because the right sync-box can convert SMPTE into MTC for the computer to read. In terms of doing your own film scoring and music videos, this may be your best bet as it's probably the simplest route.

I haven't synced up my MSR-16's yet, but in theory I could. The only difficulty I would have is that with a single accessory cable, my master machine would have to get timecode data directly from track 16 while it's playing, and wouldn't be able to send information as to its relative position while rewinding and fast-forwarding. This means syncing will take a little while to get going, making things like recording overdubs while in sync very difficult. In my limited experience, having the MSR-16 slave to the computer was a pain, but having the MSR-16 play as the master was a lot better.

Sounds like a lot of S&M going on, but that's all I've got for my limited sync experience. In my new studio I plan on implementing my Tascam Midiizer more for data, by not necessarily sync, purposes. In this way I'll be able to do midi mute automation, yet still hook up to a computer if I were short a track or something on a recording.

If you're able to locate a Midiizer for cheap money locally or something, I highly recommend it, since it seems like it can do pretty much anything. I know there is a rack-mount parallel interface that can be used with it, and I believe you could use this with the 388, but I've never actually seen one.

-MD

 

[A Reel Person]

Yeah.

If I'm going to do this at all, I'm determined to do it with the equipment I already have. I don't think a MidiIzer is in my future, as I'm refraining from buying new gear,... but you never really know.

Thanx for your input!

 

[Beck]

ONCE upon a time,...

The short answer is that it can be done provided you can locate a suitable interface unit that Fostex made for Tascam decks. It doesn’t look like it can be done with custom cables alone. Unfortunately there’s not really a standard that makes it as simple as getting different connecters and figuring out which pin corresponds to the pin on the other side, since sometimes there is no direct Tascam conterpart to a Fostex function and vice versa. So Fostex made several converter/cable assemblies (Interface units) for different machines. But even then some features beyond basic transport and sync might not work.

See pics below of the interface unit, #8783 for the Otari MX5050 MK III.

I came to conclusion myself that syncing two analog decks, while fun and interesting, was cumbersome, increased tape costs and head wear… so I only sync MIDI and digital devices to a single analog deck, which is relatively easy. I’ve been using sync since before MIDI came out, and then embraced MIDI for automation in mid-80’s, but my music is heavy on synths, which doesn’t work for everybody. Extensive use of MIDI keyboards and modules lessens the need for more analog tracks; I need a lot of channels, but not more than 7 analog tracks… usually. When I need more I can bounce (no more than once as a rule) or transfer analog tracks to a synced digital system.

If using all Fostex products it looks easy enough and the 4030/4035 setup was pretty popular. All you would need for each deck is an 8540 straight-through cable. Ideally you’d want an editing VCR of some kind. I used to have a Panasonic Super VHS editing deck in the early 90’s. These days I would prefer digital video for editing… the eye is a lot easier to fool than the ear.

Back to just audio, if you could get your hands on the right Fostex interface units, something like a TSR-8/238 or 38/238 match has always intrigued me (38 would have to be sync master with no common transport control). It would be similar to augmenting analog tracks with digital, in so much that the core of the mix would be held together by the fatter open-reel tracks, with the cassette tracks in a support/background role. Tape costs for cassette are relatively insignificant. The interface for the TSR/MSR is Fostex model 8787. Me thinks that should work with the 238 as well, but I’m not 100% sure.

One thing for sure… information on syncing analog to anything is getting harder to find on-line. At least I’m having a harder time pointing people to on-line references that go into enough detail.

~Tim

 

[A Reel Person]

Yeah.

Thanx for the info!