Tascam 58-OB Story...

  • Thread starter Thread starter sweetbeats
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Silly question for you. So you have positively verified the synchronizer "CAN"T read TC at all with the lifters extended ? You can do that by soloing the recorder and manually holding the lifters out while the tape is fast winding in either direction. The TC should display continuosly.
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Do you mean manually retracting the lifters in fast-wind mode?

If the ES-50 tells the 58 to fast-wind, and the lifters extend (push tape away from the heads), the TC stops. If I manually retract the lifters in fast-wind mode, the TC starts up again, jumping to whatever the current position is on tape. Then there's no problem because the ES-50 is reading code. The problem occurs when the ES-50 puts the 58 into fast-wind mode and I don't touch the lifters. The synchronizer stops reading TC, and the 58 keeps right on going until it runs out of tape. The synchronizer never tells it to stop fast-winding. I'm assuming this is because the secondary method by which the ES-50 gets its positional info from the 58, the tach pulses (at least that's the impression I was given), is not functioning right.

I don't truly know what the cause of the problem is :confused:
 
Just a quick general note for anyone following the thread: If your ATR is reading timecode or any audio with the lifters extended you have a badly magnetized reproduce head that needs degaussing, or your lifters aren't completely clearing the tape from contact with the head.

sweetbeats said:
The problem occurs when the ES-50 puts the 58 into fast-wind mode and I don't touch the lifters. The synchronizer stops reading TC, and the 58 keeps right on going until it runs out of tape. The synchronizer never tells it to stop fast-winding. I'm assuming this is because the secondary method by which the ES-50 gets its positional info from the 58, the tach pulses (at least that's the impression I was given), is not functioning right.

I don't truly know what the cause of the problem is :confused:
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This is a fairly common issue when trying to slave an ATR (Loss of communication during fast wind). But it could be that you don’t have anything on the other side of the ES-50 that can make sense of the tach info. Your DAW has to send the stop or play command to keep the tape from going past the expected point.
 
If your ATR is reading timecode or any audio with the lifters extended you have a badly magnetized reproduce head that needs degaussing, or your lifters aren't completely clearing the tape from contact with the head
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Faulty lifter mute circuit could be a contributor as well, yes?

But it could be that you don`t have anything on the other side of the ES-50 that can make sense of the tach info.
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Hmm...but the cable schematic specific for interfacing the 58 with the ES-50 demonstrates that there is tach info to interface...I'm going to refer to the ES-50 manual and see what I can gleen...


Your DAW has to send the stop or play command to keep the tape from going past the expected point.
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Well...okay. But the ES-50 *knows* where the DAW is at. I can confirm that by monitoring the TC position of the Master, in my case the DAW. Putting the DAW into STOP or PLAY again won't make a difference because that's already been done...that's the event that puts the 58 into fast-wind. For example:

1. atr and DAW are in PLAY chase-locked.
2. I press STOP in the DAW and everything stops.
3. I relocate the DAW timeline cursor position, say, 2 minutes from the current position and press PLAY long enough for the synchronizer to read the new position of the DAW.
4. The ES-50 puts the 58 into FFWD to chase to the new position.
5. I press STOP in the DAW to make it easy on the synchronizer/atr. :)
6. 58 keeps on fast-winding past the point that I would anticipate it slowing down and scrubbing.
7. 58 keeps on fast-winding until the end of the reel.
8. Sweetbeats grumbles.

The issue I *think* is that the synchronizer is losing communication with the atr in fast-wind. Does that make sense? Pressing STOP or PLAY again isn't going to help because I *think* the synchronizer doesn't know where the 58 is at once it goes into fast-wind.

Thanks for the post, Beck. I appreciate it.
 
sweetbeats said:
BTW, I tested the replacement roll of RMGI SM911 that Phil Paske at RMGI promptly sent out to me and it runs clean as a whistle! :p Play-spooled it from one end to the next and then a mix of REW SPOOL and fast REW back onto the supply reel...nothing undesirable visible on anything in the tape path. :cool:
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That's great news!:)

Would you happen to have the batch number of the bad tape and also of the new replacement?

----
 
Yes, however, they're out in the studio, and I'm cozied up in the house...

I'll get the numbers and put them up in the next day or so. Actually, I have the batch number of the bad roll...024122.

I'll get the other in the next day.
 
sweetbeats said:
Faulty lifter mute circuit could be a contributor as well, yes?


Hmm...but the cable schematic specific for interfacing the 58 with the ES-50 demonstrates that there is tach info to interface...I'm going to refer to the ES-50 manual and see what I can gleen...



Well...okay. But the ES-50 *knows* where the DAW is at. I can confirm that by monitoring the TC position of the Master, in my case the DAW. Putting the DAW into STOP or PLAY again won't make a difference because that's already been done...that's the event that puts the 58 into fast-wind. For example:

1. atr and DAW are in PLAY chase-locked.
2. I press STOP in the DAW and everything stops.
3. I relocate the DAW timeline cursor position, say, 2 minutes from the current position and press PLAY long enough for the synchronizer to read the new position of the DAW.
4. The ES-50 puts the 58 into FFWD to chase to the new position.
5. I press STOP in the DAW to make it easy on the synchronizer/atr. :)
6. 58 keeps on fast-winding past the point that I would anticipate it slowing down and scrubbing.
7. 58 keeps on fast-winding until the end of the reel.
8. Sweetbeats grumbles.

The issue I *think* is that the synchronizer is losing communication with the atr in fast-wind. Does that make sense? Pressing STOP or PLAY again isn't going to help because I *think* the synchronizer doesn't know where the 58 is at once it goes into fast-wind.

Thanks for the post, Beck. I appreciate it.
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On the first part I was specifically addressing running in fast wind under normal conditions. With the lifters extended the head should not pick up audio.

Ah… ok, I see what you mean about the play/stop issue. What I’m saying is the ATR should go into play automatically when it finds the place where it should be, referenced to where the DAW is starting from. And as you describe it should slowdown and the reels will rock back and forth with the lifters pulled in as it searches for the precise location, after which it will automatically go into play (or stop if that’s what you set it to do when it reached the point).

There is constant two-way communication between the slave and the master through the sync device. If either one of those communication paths is broken the slave will behave erratically or appear to be ignoring the master.

It sounds like the ATR is receiving machine control commands that engage the transport (Play, FForward, etc), but not able to send positional information once it begins, or the ES-50 is not receiving the positional information even though your 58 is sending it.

This could be anything, from a bad connection to a malfunction on the ATR side or the sync master side. But it’s not uncommon to see this type of malfunction when slaving ATR-to-DAW, or ATR-to-ATR, or ATR-to-VTR.

Something else just came to mind, but it’s getting late… the slave ATR should be set for external speed control, so if doesn’t receive an external frequency to control it that might make it go into the runaway FFWD situation you’re experiencing.

:)
 
sweetbeats said:
Yes, however, they're out in the studio, and I'm cozied up in the house...

I'll get the numbers and put them up in the next day or so. Actually, I have the batch number of the bad roll...024122.

I'll get the other in the next day.
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Cool! I'll add it to my list. Glad you got a new roll. :)

Check you PMs in a minute or so.
 
sweetbeats said:
Do you mean manually retracting the lifters in fast-wind mode?

The problem occurs when the ES-50 puts the 58 into fast-wind mode and I don't touch the lifters. The synchronizer stops reading TC, and the 58 keeps right on going until it runs out of tape. The synchronizer never tells it to stop fast-winding. I'm assuming this is because the secondary method by which the ES-50 gets its positional info from the 58, the tach pulses (at least that's the impression I was given), is not functioning right.

I don't truly know what the cause of the problem is :confused:
Click to expand...

Sweetbeat,

I think your assumption is correct. As I stated above, TC position is computed in fast wind by my system. If you look at the frequency range which TC can be read which btw is probably in your manual, it should be clear that at fast wind speeds the frequency would be unreadable whether tape made head contact or not..

Looks like you are getting plenty of advice on the subject, so it might be best if I drop out of participating in your thread here. Good luck.

Danny
 
Danny,
Looks like you are getting plenty of advice on the subject, so it might be best if I drop out of participating in your thread here. Good luck.
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Your advice is much appreciated, and I'm not out of the woods yet. Please keep checking this thread and comment if ya got 'em, please. DON'T LEAVE ME! :D


As I stated above, TC position is computed in fast wind by my system.
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By the tach, right?


If you look at the frequency range which TC can be read which btw is probably in your manual, it should be clear that at fast wind speeds the frequency would be unreadable whether tape made head contact or not..
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The manual states bi-directional TC read capability from 1/20 to 100 times play speed. That would be 1500ips which is much greater than the specified 240ips fast-wind speed, but that is irrelevant anyway because I'm certain it is designed to read the tach pulses when the lifters are extended.


Beck,
Ah… ok, I see what you mean about the play/stop issue. What I’m saying is the ATR should go into play automatically when it finds the place where it should be, referenced to where the DAW is starting from. And as you describe it should slowdown and the reels will rock back and forth with the lifters pulled in as it searches for the precise location, after which it will automatically go into play (or stop if that’s what you set it to do when it reached the point).
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Right. And that's all working as long as I keep the tape on or close to the heads by manually retracting the lifters. It works like a charm.


the slave ATR should be set for external speed control
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Yes. It is.

Urg...:(:confused:

Thanks for your helpful efforts guys. I appreciate it.
 
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sweetbeats said:
Danny,

The manual states bi-directional TC read capability from 1/20 to 100 times play speed. That would be 1500ips which is much greater than the specified 240ips fast-wind speed.
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Well that's dang impressive.

From my genuine antique copy of Sams Modern Recording Techniques, page 251:

Due to the high frequency content of Smpte, it cannot be read in fast forward or rewind WITHOUT defeating the tape lifters.

So. . . I have no idea how your Tascam synchronizer works but to restate what I have tried to make clear previously: Micro Lynx does not retract lifters during fast winds. It uses pulses to compute and maintain ballpark position of the address and while programmed in NORMAL mode, retracts lifters only upon park, jog or scrub. I can't imagine that Tascam would not use a similar system to reduce wear on the heads. But otoh, the Lynx system was kinda expensive in it's day so who really knows.

BTW, what is the further results of your testing of the 12hz cp which is output at 15ips ?

Danny
 
Danny,

The ES-50 is setup to operate like your MicroLynx...TC referenced in play/jog, tach pulses in fast-wind. This is implicitly clear to me in the specifications, pinouts and flow diagrams in the ES-50 manual. The ES-50 seems to be designed very much with sync'ing in atr~vtr environments as well, further reinforcing the idea that the system would be designed to care for the tape path with all the shuttling in video production.

I was experimenting with all the settings in the ES-50 last night as far as servo gain/damping, brake advance...etc. It will make for a very responsive relationship if I can just figure out the runaway slave issue.

I figured out how to setup an ftp site through my internet domain, so I'm going to record some video so you and others can see what's going on.

I will also check out those links to threads. Thank you for that.

On the tach pulse frequency, its not any better. Did some more tests. 60Hz in SPOOL, which logically seems correct, all over the place in PLAY, and...60Hz in fast-wind...but I don't know if I can trust my DMM. The specs show that the frequency-counter function is only good down to 10Hz, and I'm pushing asking it to read 12Hz, plus I don't know if the pulse voltage strength is adequate, and I also don't know if I'm putting the probes in the right terminals on the ACCESSORY connector and I'm getting faulty readings everywhere.

This is all just a little above my knowledge-base...I know enough to be dangerous when it gets to this level...
 
Why don't you just uplaod your video to photobucket ? I've been trying to make you a video tonight also but I was trying to do a one shot continuous and unfortunately I don't have enough memory in the card. It would probably take me days to edit in Pinnacle (what I own). Maybe I'll try to get a larger than 1gig card tommorow.

Danny
 
Why don't you just uplaod your video to photobucket ?
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I don't want to deal with clearing cookies or waiting the 8-10 minutes if I've got more than one file to upload.

Easier to archive and organize on my ftp site.

Potentially less hassle for fellow enthusiasts/users to download files (i.e. no cookies/ads/spam/spyware...that sort of thing)

I've been trying to make you a video tonight also but I was trying to do a one shot continuous and unfortunately I don't have enough memory in the card.
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How long a shoot are you taking? I'm able to fit 6-7 minutes or so on a 256Mb card at 15fps and 320x240 frame size...not the best quality but adequate for what I'm doing here...I then compress it from the native .avi to an Xvid .avi format using a really great freeware video editor, Virtual Dub. We do though have a 4Gb card...I think we got it from newegg.com...got it for $38 on a deal posted up at www.bensbargains.net a couple years ago.
 
The good replacement RMGI tape I got is batch number...

120946 ;)

This is in response to:

Would you happen to have the batch number of the bad tape and also of the new replacement?
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Okay...I've uploaded a video file that you can download from here regarding my runaway slaved 58. Sorry folks, I compressed it as good as I know how. Its about 7 minutes of video, but it is a relatively gihugic *gulp* 42Mb. :o

It is an mpeg-4 Xvid codec.

If you don't have that on your video player you can download something like the Free AVS DVD Player.

Enjoy. :rolleyes:

Do you happen to know how their batch system works, like in what do these numbers really mean or indicate?
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No, unfortunately I don't, but I'll see what I can find out from Phil Paske at RMGI.
 
Sweetbeats,

I watched your video. I could not see the synclock indicator light on the function switch panel illuminated. What's up with that ??
 
Danny,

Are you talking about on the ES-51 controller? Its lit...The lock indicator light is on the right-hand side directly below the right-hand numerical display.

It may be due to the quality of the video as well, but when the two are locked, it is lit. It does turn off when the 58 goes into that fast-wind though, which reinforces that the ES-50 is not getting tach pulses...the ES-50 loses communication with the 58 when the mute circuit kicks in.

I indicated in the video that I was pretty sure that the mute circuit is active whenever the atr is in fast-wind mode, but the manual says that retracting the lifters should defeat the mute circuit in any transport mode...that is not happening, so who knows if that has something to do with my problem...
 
sweetbeats said:
Danny,

Are you talking about on the ES-51 controller? Its lit...The lock indicator light is on the right-hand side directly below the right-hand numerical display.

It may be due to the quality of the video as well, but when the two are locked, it is lit. It does turn off when the 58 goes into that fast-wind though, which reinforces that the ES-50 is not getting tach pulses...the ES-50 loses communication with the 58 when the mute circuit kicks in.

I indicated in the video that I was pretty sure that the mute circuit is active whenever the atr is in fast-wind mode, but the manual says that retracting the lifters should defeat the mute circuit in any transport mode...that is not happening, so who knows if that has something to do with my problem...
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Nope. The recorder function switches. Does the 58 have a lifter defeat/ mute button on the left hand corner ? If so push it and then push the track 8 INPUT button. See if the track 8 input indicator turns orange.
 
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