Tascam 58-OB Story...

  • Thread starter Thread starter sweetbeats
  • Start date Start date
OK, I'm having some problems with my computer so before I get another warning alarm, I'd like to add to my previous post....

I viewed the videos over and over and my initial hunch seems correct. Cory, the tension arms are adjusted TOO CLOSE to the deck [some novice tightened the screws too much]. The tape path is thus not straight and that is why you're getting the 'pull' toward the deck. I double checked with my own 48 and yup, yours are too close to the deck. Make sure you go through section 7 - 18 and adjust, exactly as specified. I did the exact same thing and now my 48's path is straight as an arrow and it runs smooth as silk. It's the tension arms.:cool:

-----
 
Tascam 58-OB

Hi!
Yesterday I found a 58-OB here in Sweden and when I searched the Internet I found this cool thread with lots of great info!!
:)
I got it for approx $330 (converted from swedish crowns) and took it home. It came with the RC-51 remote unit and stand. I found an original manual for sale in the US so I ordered that and will be camping outside the mailbox until it arrives...:D

My only experience with reel to reel machines is the Fostex R8 that I had in the mid 80´s and I have also spent many hours in studios recording with all the great recorders like Ampex, Studer, Otari etc, but I never had to deal with anything else apart from cleaning the heads so the 58-OB will be a whole new experience and I´m looking forward to learning more about getting it running properly and keeping it in good shape.

I cleaned the heads, plugged it in and everything is running and seems to be working except for the headstack that have seen better days and seems to be all worn out...

I will start testing the machine later today and see if what happens...
to be continued...:)
/Christian
 
Another 58 owner!!! WOOHOOOOO!!

Christian, welcome!

Glad you and the Analog Only forum found each other. :)

Hey, its been a great adventure with my 58-OB so far. I also have the RC-51 full-function remote with stand, so we have a lot in common equipment-wise.

It sounds like you got a pretty good deal on your setup.

I look forward to collaborating!

When you have a chance, would you consider downloading and viewing the video I linked in the post 5 before yours? It is related to the behavior of my tension arms, and I'd appreciate getting some consensus on how other 58's behave regarding the tension arm positions in FFWD and REW.

Any thing I can help you with on yours?
Questions?

Again, welcome aboard! ;)
 
Hey cjacek...

Daniel,

sorry to be aloof regarding your follow up to my 'parts or repair' 48 tape path problem. The weekend slipped away and now I'm on my out of town on business for a couple days.

I seriously didn't realize the 48 tension arms were adjustable. I will study that section of the manual before I return...I'm curious to learn how those things are adjusted, because it got by me. :)

Thanks for taking the time, and I'll post back.
 
Test results/video

Thanks for the warm welcome!:)
I´m stuck at the moment...
after testing my 58 I came to the conclusion that the recording head is all worn down and beyond rescue (at least I think so), and the playhead is not as bad as the recording head but it doesn´t look very good...
the erase head seems to work but since the other heads are so worn I guess it´s on its last leg aswell...

when I fed the inputs with the same sound source the VU meters on all tracks went up to the same level so they seem to work just fine...
what ended up on tape after I pressed the record button was a dissapointment and there were only sound on a few tracks, and not very pleasant sounding...
The tape I used had some recordings on it and all the tracks showed signs of life, from good sounds on a few channels to weird sounds on a couple of others, but I don´t know how it was recorded in the first place so I can´t really tell if it´s the recording or the worn playhead that´s causing the bad sounds...

Fortunately I found a complete new headstack for sale in the US at the same place I got the manual so in a few weeks I´ll probably get it running properly!

I filmed the tension arms of my 58 and made a little video for you but I don´t have a place to upload it so maybe you can send me an email and I´ll reply with the video attached plus a couple of photos of my worn heads...
Your input on the pictures of my recording head etc would be appreciated!
send me an email to: confuse70(at)hotmail(dot)com
:)
/Christian


Christian, welcome!

Glad you and the Analog Only forum found each other. :)

Hey, its been a great adventure with my 58-OB so far. I also have the RC-51 full-function remote with stand, so we have a lot in common equipment-wise.

It sounds like you got a pretty good deal on your setup.

I look forward to collaborating!

When you have a chance, would you consider downloading and viewing the video I linked in the post 5 before yours? It is related to the behavior of my tension arms, and I'd appreciate getting some consensus on how other 58's behave regarding the tension arm positions in FFWD and REW.

Any thing I can help you with on yours?
Questions?

Again, welcome aboard! ;)
 
I seriously didn't realize the 48 tension arms were adjustable. I will study that section of the manual before I return...I'm curious to learn how those things are adjusted, because it got by me. :)

Oh yeah, Cory, the tension arms are indeed adjustable. The screws are just under the rollers, hidden from view by the 'housing base'.

Under 'Maintenance', see section 7 - 4 [and then, of course 7 - 18, to actually do the adjustment]. :)

----
 
58 tension arm behavior movie

Wanted to copy this over to this thread from my M520 Story thread...ethyrvalve too the time to take a movie of his 58. ;)

slightly off-topic, but here's a video of how my my 58's tension arms work in rw and ff:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=PBEEGP9G
i've never messed with them, but when i had a tech do the azimuth/zenith etc i asked him his opinion and he didn't think anything needed adjusting.

Thanks, Pete!

So ethyrvalve's tension arms behave the way the manual indicates...my Tentelometer indicates mine are adjusted to the right tenion. I suspect I'm doing something wrong, but I don't know what... :(
 
Still trying to get past my tension arm issue. You probably saw my post here, but in case you didn't there is a video linked in the post to demonstrate how I am calibrating and using the Tentelometer to make sure I am doing it right...don't want to recalibrate the deck until this is working right...just trying to do it by the book. Anxious to get to tracking. :mad::(
 
tweaktweaktweaktweak...

I'm growing weary of tweaking...my own fault at concerning myself with it, but I want my 58 to run right.

Beck's correction on my flawed Tentelometer calibration was totally helpful, but its effect on my tension arm issue was only somewhat positive.

The arms are in precisely the right position in EDIT...that's the first step.

Then in PLAY the tension between the supply reel and supply-side tension arm is supposed to be 75-85g, same when measuring between the takeup reel and takeup-side tension arm. If the tension isn't correct, you're supposed to adjust the tension arm spring hangers accordingly. Well, I've got the supply-side hanger maxed out and all I can get is 60g. The takeup side is backed mostly all the way off and it reads 75g. Don't know if this is just splitting hairs, or if it means there is a problem, and what effect that problem will have on things long term.

In fast-wind its like this: the manual gives instructions for how to do it visually...the tension arm adjacent to whatever side is supplying tape is supposed to drop into, more or less, a straight down position once the motors are up to speed. So you can, if I'm reading the manual correctly and in absence of a Tentelometer, just adjust it visually that way. I did that. Then I went to test with the Tentelometer to double-check. To do this the manual says to do the tests in SPOOL mode. Regardless of REW or FWD mode, the supply side is supposed to read 80g, the takeup side 180-200g. In FWD I'm getting about 60g and 160g. In REW I'm getting 40g and 120g. The only way to get the tension readings right in REW mode is to back the trimmer all the off until the tension arm on the takeup side is totally bottomed against its stop. :mad:

What do I do??? :confused::confused::confused:

If I had more 58's in the area I could check the performance of them, but alas...do I worry about this?

I assume it is more of a concern in fast-wind for the tension to be too high...premature wear on the path and tape...I suppose the potential issue with the tension being too low is a poor tape pack, though I REW-spooled the entire roll of SM911 from the very sad stock reel onto one of my heavy-duty 6-scew precision reels and the pack looked pretty good...

So, opinions please...are the numbers okay?
 
Cory, I have no idea how to help but maybe I'll leave you with this [with perhaps someone else to offer something more precise]... I'd stick, at least for now, to the compromise between being bottomed out and correct tensions.

It seems you're doing it all correct but have a careful look, again, at the chain of adjustment, from the tentelometer to the actual deck adjustments. Maybe you've missed a step or sumthin'?:confused:

---
 
I found another hitch in my process...I was using a test strip of tape to calibrate the Tentelometer that was from a bad roll of RMGI SM911. I put a strip on the calibrating weight that was from the good replacement roll I got from RMGI. After doing that, what was calibrated to 1oz was now about 0.75oz.

Helpful, but not enough...the numbers still won't come into spec.

As stated above, the worst is the REW tension. The tape pack isn't bad (see below)...not sure if there is anything alse I'd need to worry about, since I'd be PLAY spooling or FWD SPOOLing onto the takeup reel for tails-out storage anyway, and I think the tape looks even better on either of those...urg.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_7089_1_1.webp
    IMG_7089_1_1.webp
    29.2 KB · Views: 166
I found another hitch in my process...I was using a test strip of tape to calibrate the Tentelometer that was from a bad roll of RMGI SM911. I put a strip on the calibrating weight that was from the good replacement roll I got from RMGI. After doing that, what was calibrated to 1oz was now about 0.75oz.

Helpful, but not enough...the numbers still won't come into spec.

As stated above, the worst is the REW tension. The tape pack isn't bad (see below)...not sure if there is anything alse I'd need to worry about, since I'd be PLAY spooling or FWD SPOOLing onto the takeup reel for tails-out storage anyway, and I think the tape looks even better on either of those...urg.

Cory,

Nice pack. And yep you're doing it right, ie: aways put the new reel on the takeup side, rewind to wherever the work is and FFW when done. That way the tape will forever be tails out.

Danny
 
I have been taking a break to work on "Bessie"...

She's working again...thank goodness...the grass was getting tall. :eek::rolleyes:
 

Attachments

  • IMG_7183_2_1.webp
    IMG_7183_2_1.webp
    27.8 KB · Views: 163
Please, if able, check out the video...

In the latest post in my Tentelometer thread.

I'm still having problems getting the tensions right on my 58. The video shows my measuring technique. Wondering if anything looks wacky with it.

My measurements are:

PLAY
supply side 60g (should be 75-85g)
takeup side 80g (A-OK)

FFWD
supply side 60g (A-OK)
takeup side 140-160g (should be 180-200g)

REW
supply side 30g (should be 60g)
takeup side 80-100g (should be 180-200g)

The spring on the supply side tension arm is absolutely maxed and I'm still not getting the minimum playback tension.

Now here's a thought: could it be related to the reel motor? I replaced the reel motor on the supply side. It runs really quiet and smooth but I thought it would be a good idea to put in a connector in case I need to take the motor out in the future rather than have to desolder it from the PCB. Is that a bad idea? Could that effect the ability of the motor to muster the appropriate operating tension?? :confused:

Tape pack looks great after a FWD SPOOL.

Takeup%20Tape%20Pack%202008%2006%2004.JPG
 
Some updates on my tape tension and runaway slave issues

I talked to Jim Finch at Tascam in CA.

Regarding the tape tension issue: He suggested I check to see if the tension arm spring on the supply side is stretched, or even to try putting a second spring on it (there are two connection points on the hanger, BTW). He said it wouldn't be an issue with the reel motor, especially since the connector I added on the motor connection was brand-new. He said that even if the connection was really corroded it wouldn't be enough to cause the kinds of tension issues I am seeing...there would be bigger problems first. He suggested to check the tape to head contact again on a 16kHz tone (i.e. playback 16kHz and lightly apply pressure on the supply flange in PLAY and watch for meter deflection especially on the outside tracks). I did do this initially, and it was fine, but I think I did it on a 10kHz tone and it was prior to all the adjustments that I have made. Either 10kHz or 16kHz will work but he says the 16kHz tone is more sensitive. If, after making all these adjustments, the levels are stable with increased back-tension on the supply side, then there is sufficient tape-to-head contact and the 60g tension on the supply side (as opposed to the specified 75-85g) in PLAY is not a problem. In fast-wind the numbers aren't in spec to be sure in REW, but basically he confirmed that I should be more worried about tension that is too high vs. tension that is too low, which would effect the tape pack, but since I'm spooling to the takeup side and storing tails-out, and my tension readings are pretty good in FWD (and both REW and FWD tape packs look good anyway), that I may indeed be beating a dead horse. That is what I was looking for. So I'll check the tension arm springs (I'll swap 'em and see what happens), double-check the tape-to-head contact, and if there is no change with the spring swap and the tape-to-head contact is good then I'm leaving it be.

Runaway slave issue: it does indeed sound as though, somehow, the ES-50 synchronizer is not reading the tach pulses from the 58. I did confirm some time ago that I'm getting the 12Hz tach pulses at the ES-50 end of the sync cable in PLAY, approximately 72Hz in SPOOL FWD or REW, but then I'm getting garble in fast-wind. That was with my previous DMM. I'm going to retest with the Fluke 85. If I'm not getting a reliable frequency in fast-wind at the ACCESSORY port then there is a problem inside the 58. If I am getting reliable pulses at the ES-50 end of the cable then there is a problem with the ES-50 and I will likely need to send it to Tascam.

The other piece here is that the ES-50's setup/calibration procedure (which auto-sets synchronization parameters specific to the slave and master machines to which it is connected) is not able to complete with my setup because I only have one machine (the 58 as slave) attached. Jim is going to contact engineering and see if there are steps that the ES-50 ignores accross the board if both master and slave machines are not connected. In other words, the auto-setup/calibration procedure on the ES-50 was designed to function with master and slave machines connected. If there are parameters that cannot be read from a machine the ES-50 ignores those and tells you that it could not complete the setup. That doesn't mean it stopped at that point, it just couldn't complete those particular steps. The question is whether or not in my case, where I have a "code-only master" (no master deck is connected, just the SMPTE code from the DAW in the MASTER TC input), none of the master machine parameters will be able to be read, since there is no master machine. So will then, for instance, certain slave machine parameters be ignored because there is no master machine connected? That's what Jim Finch is going to try and find out. If I don't hear back from him it means that he found no more information. So I'll test and see what I can find and then go from there. Ultimately it may mean that I need to refurb my 48 and build the master sync cable before I can properly setup the ES-50 and efficiently get into syncing the 58 with the DAW.
 
Cory, great news about you getting some much needed assistance from TASCAM. The spring issue makes a lot of sense. But what if the original spring is stretched and needs to be replaced? Is this a possibility?

---
 
I talked to Jim Finch at Tascam in CA.

Regarding the tape tension issue: He suggested I check to see if the tension arm spring on the supply side is stretched, or even to try putting a second spring on it (there are two connection points on the hanger, BTW). He said it wouldn't be an issue with the reel motor, especially since the connector I added on the motor connection was brand-new. He said that even if the connection was really corroded it wouldn't be enough to cause the kinds of tension issues I am seeing...there would be bigger problems first. He suggested to check the tape to head contact again on a 16kHz tone (i.e. playback 16kHz and lightly apply pressure on the supply flange in PLAY and watch for meter deflection especially on the outside tracks). I did do this initially, and it was fine, but I think I did it on a 10kHz tone and it was prior to all the adjustments that I have made. Either 10kHz or 16kHz will work but he says the 16kHz tone is more sensitive. If, after making all these adjustments, the levels are stable with increased back-tension on the supply side, then there is sufficient tape-to-head contact and the 60g tension on the supply side (as opposed to the specified 75-85g) in PLAY is not a problem. In fast-wind the numbers aren't in spec to be sure in REW, but basically he confirmed that I should be more worried about tension that is too high vs. tension that is too low, which would effect the tape pack, but since I'm spooling to the takeup side and storing tails-out, and my tension readings are pretty good in FWD (and both REW and FWD tape packs look good anyway), that I may indeed be beating a dead horse. That is what I was looking for. So I'll check the tension arm springs (I'll swap 'em and see what happens), double-check the tape-to-head contact, and if there is no change with the spring swap and the tape-to-head contact is good then I'm leaving it be.

Runaway slave issue: it does indeed sound as though, somehow, the ES-50 synchronizer is not reading the tach pulses from the 58. I did confirm some time ago that I'm getting the 12Hz tach pulses at the ES-50 end of the sync cable in PLAY, approximately 72Hz in SPOOL FWD or REW, but then I'm getting garble in fast-wind. That was with my previous DMM. I'm going to retest with the Fluke 85. If I'm not getting a reliable frequency in fast-wind at the ACCESSORY port then there is a problem inside the 58. If I am getting reliable pulses at the ES-50 end of the cable then there is a problem with the ES-50 and I will likely need to send it to Tascam.

The other piece here is that the ES-50's setup/calibration procedure (which auto-sets synchronization parameters specific to the slave and master machines to which it is connected) is not able to complete with my setup because I only have one machine (the 58 as slave) attached. Jim is going to contact engineering and see if there are steps that the ES-50 ignores accross the board if both master and slave machines are not connected. In other words, the auto-setup/calibration procedure on the ES-50 was designed to function with master and slave machines connected. If there are parameters that cannot be read from a machine the ES-50 ignores those and tells you that it could not complete the setup. That doesn't mean it stopped at that point, it just couldn't complete those particular steps. The question is whether or not in my case, where I have a "code-only master" (no master deck is connected, just the SMPTE code from the DAW in the MASTER TC input), none of the master machine parameters will be able to be read, since there is no master machine. So will then, for instance, certain slave machine parameters be ignored because there is no master machine connected? That's what Jim Finch is going to try and find out. If I don't hear back from him it means that he found no more information. So I'll test and see what I can find and then go from there. Ultimately it may mean that I need to refurb my 48 and build the master sync cable before I can properly setup the ES-50 and efficiently get into syncing the 58 with the DAW.

Cory,

The Tascam tech has brought up a valid point. Just my opinion here and I really hope you don't get mad a me for being somewhat bold. You should "consider" Ebaying the ES50/51 and grab a Microlynx. I bought my last (backup closet) one for $200.00 and it had installed in it the very expensive digi/avid approved clock option. Since all the majors have gone to Protools, they don't need them anymore. Don't you think you could get at least that much for your setup ? A Microlynx is soooo easy to use and I can promise it will work the way you intend to synchronize. It has Menu choices for the 40 and 50 series, ATR 60, ATR 80 (what I use for MS-16) DA-series, MSR16, MSR24, BR20 and TSR8 listed as Tascam transport options among a hundred or so more machines. There's nothing else required except to makeup a cable connector for your machine.

Regards,

Danny
 
Last edited:
Cory, great news about you getting some much needed assistance from TASCAM. The spring issue makes a lot of sense. But what if the original spring is stretched and needs to be replaced? Is this a possibility?

I should have called sooner...Its almost like I don't want to bug those guys, but they actually take the time to hash it out with you if you've done your homework and know something about what you are dealing with. This was the 4th time I've called them once I get to a real stumper and they've pullked me out of the bog every time. I wouldn't have been able to build the sync cable without them. Faxed me the otherwise unavailable schematic and took the time to answer every single one of my idiotic questions for the price of a phone call.

If the spring needs replacing, I'll simply go down to the hardware store and pick one up. They've got tons of them down there. I'll do what I did when I built my spring guages...grabbed a bunch of really big washers and weighed 'em on their nail scales and then hooked them on the different springs with 'S'-hooks until I found the two springs that had the right ranges...I got some strange looks, but it worked. I'll take the good spring and find out how much it stretches with a known weight and find another that's close, unless I can get it from Tascam. I'll try that first, but I have my doubts.

Cory,

The Tascam tech has brought up a valid point. Just my opinion here and I really hope you don't get mad a me for being somewhat bold. You should "consider" Ebaying the ES50/51 and grab a Microlynx. I bought my last (backup closet) one for $200.00 and it had installed in it the very expensive digi/avid approved clock option. Since all the majors have gone to Protools, they don't need them anymore. Don't you think you could get at least that much for your setup ? A Microlynx is soooo easy to use and I can promise it will work the way you intend to synchronize. It has Menu choices for the 40 and 50 series, ATR 60, ATR 80 (what I use for MS-16) DA-series, MSR16, MSR24, BR20 and TSR8 listed as Tascam transport options among a hundred or so more machines. There's nothing else required except to makeup a cable connector for your machine.

Regards,

Danny

Danny, I know... :o

Totally no offense taken. Can't imagine getting offended anyway after all the support and help you've given me. ;)

I might consider it if the ES-50 is the tach pulse culprit (i.e. if the tach pulses are getting to the ES-50 but once inside they are getting lost).

What type of connector does the microlynx have on the back for the sync cable connection?
 
What a waste...

I'm simply discouraged...*sigh*

Swapped tension arm springs...no noticeable difference of which to speak.

Reset all the tension stuff. Final readings:

PLAY
supply = 50g (should be 75-85g)
takeup = 80g

FWD
supply = 35g (should be 60g)
takeup = 120g (should be 180-200g)

REW
supply = 30g (should be 60g)
takeup = 90g (should be 180-200g)

This is about the best I can do...otherwise the tension arms aren't spaced right, or the reels want to creep in EDIT...and now my tape packs look pretty bad. :(

Checked head-to-tape contact...the playback level actually drops when I apply back pressure to the supply reel...nothing in the manual tells me what that means...noticed the tape was drifting...I thought I had that nailed down...re-adjusted tape path...noticed that the repro head looks visibly out of azimuth...thought I had that set too.

tried to find tach pulses both at the end of the sync cable, and at the ACCESSORY jack...nothing. Used to have tach pulses.

I'm going to bed.
 
Back
Top