Tascam 58-OB Story...

[cjacek]

I'd like to offer my own 2cents, if I may...

Cory, the sync head appears to have most of its contour still left, which means very little wear. The erase head also looks good but I don't like the sound of the swab test, where you feel that 'stray fibers of the swab catch' on something 'sharp' [on the erase head]. Still, this does not explain [at least for the most part] the clean running TEAC test tape, so I don't think the erase head issue is at fault here. Also, the sync head doesn't present with an unrealistic oxide shed but even a spec (as seen on a couple of tracks) can present audio issues. I'm also a bit concerned about the amount of oxide (and chunks) present on the pinch roller.

Overall, the erase head and pinch roller present with an unacceptable level and type of shed. How is the playback head?

I feel it's the RMGI tape which is the problem (bad batch).

BTW, you should use those low lint cotton pad makeup removers for cleaning the heads and metal parts of the tape path and lint free cloth for the pinch roller. It's much easier, quicker and more effective than those cotton q-tips. They're fine for a cassette deck but not open reel. Trust me, go for the make up removers!

------

 

[ausrock]

Well I trust you were told to source a T2-H20-ML . It took me ages but I got mine off US Ebay a couple of years ago.

 

[Beck]

Unfortunately it looks like bad RMGI. There were batches that didn't cure properly, so they remain "soft." That's way too much shedding for a 26-minute run. I go through several passes of overdubbing and bouncing tracks and still won't see that much residue with RMGI or BASF. In my experience 456 is the cleanest, and even though I clean regularly during a session out of habit I really don't have to... nothing shows up on the cotton.

Your heads look to be in good condition. Those erase heads aren’t perfectly smooth. When running a fingernail up and down across the tracks it's normal to feel the edges. When cleaning them I only run the swab back and forth with the tracks… same as the tape passes over them.

With bad RMGI the slight edges around the tracks on the erase head are enough to peel off oxide.

Most of the over the counter Q-tips aren’t wound tightly enough and will shed cotton fiber. They also bend too easily so you can’t get enough force to clean properly. I’ve always used the type on wooden sticks that are made for audio/video cleaning.

Splicit has them. Radio Shack also used to have them, but I haven’t bought them there in a while.

http://www.splicit.com/maintenance.html

You can exchange your RMGI tape by contacting the vendor you bought it from or contacting RMGI North America directly:

http://www.rmgi-usa.com/contact_us.html

You could also contact the regional sales manager for your area, who I think would be Doug Bernhardt, 310-613-4418 dougbernhardt@rmgi-usa.com, or Phil Paske, 661-287-9877 philpaske@rmgi-usa.com

http://www.rmgi-usa.com/sales_manager.html

 

[sweetbeats]

cjacek,

How is the playback head?

Similar to the sync head which is why I didn't post up the pictures...duplicative info but I guess I could've said something about it.

BTW, you should use those low lint cotton pad makeup removers for cleaning the heads and metal parts of the tape path and lint free cloth for the pinch roller.

On the cotton pad makeup removers, are you talking about the ones that are smooth and kind of quilted looking? Do you just put a pad over the mouth of the head cleaner bottle and tip it to get the pad wet with the cleaner? What is a good lint free cloth for the pinch roller. A scrap of t-shirt?

Using the q-tips has been a pain so I appreciate the suggestion.

ausrock,

Well I trust you were told to source a T2-H20-ML

Yep!

Beck,

I’ve always used the type on wooden sticks that are made for audio/video cleaning.

Yeah, that's what I'm using.

You can exchange your RMGI tape by contacting the vendor you bought it from or contacting RMGI North America directly

I contacted US Recording Media where I bought it from and they tried to tell me it was bad tape path alignment until I told them my calibration tape runs clean and the RMGI is shedding enough oxide to drop repro levels to infinity on one pass...kind of putting two experiences together there, but it did happen during my rec level calibration...that's how I first discovered the issue. He referred me to Phil Paske at RMGI. I just left him a voicemail. *Boy* I hope they don't give me any hassle over this...

Thanks everybody. I'll keep you posted (no pun intended)

 

[cjacek]

On the cotton pad makeup removers, are you talking about the ones that are smooth and kind of quilted looking? Do you just put a pad over the mouth of the head cleaner bottle and tip it to get the pad wet with the cleaner? What is a good lint free cloth for the pinch roller.

I contacted US Recording Media where I bought it from and they tried to tell me it was bad tape path alignment ...... I hope they don't give me any hassle over this...

Yes, any of those 100% cotton 'make up removal pads' will do. I use those exactly as you say, just making sure not to have any alcohol drip. They can be oval or square but their size is sort of like that of potato chips.

For the pinch roller I use one of those microfibre cloths and I dampen the edge with a bit of warm water and use that for cleaning the pinch roller. But of course you could also use a cotton t-shirt or even a towel but I like the material to have those noticeable fibers which do a bit of a better cleaning than the very smooth cloths. I've attached a photo of what I use but they only differ in brands and such....

I've heard RMGI is very good at exchanging bad tapes but be prepared for a bit of a hassle as you've got from USRM. We've discussed the RMGI and the 'bad tape path' as reason they shed, in previous posts, and I was backing that idea, at first, but, as the months passed, I don't put any weight on this idea anymore. RMGI will have you believe this but they just like to shift blame from their own bad batches of tape, which is a shame.

------

 

[pianodano]

Ausrock and Beck...

I'm in a spot.

Here's what I did tonight:

1. Cleaned the tape path...Dunno if I'm being vigilant enough, but I go through 5-6 double-ended cleaning swabs everytime I do this...sometimes more if it is dirty.

2. Ran the calibration tape from start to finish...it is stored on the Teac 8" reel tails-out so I REW-spooled it to an empty reel and retracted the lifters some during that to work it in the tape path, and then played it back in its entirety to the 8" reel.

3. Cleaned tape path. There was pretty much nothing to speak of to clean...like, I had to strain my eyes to try and see if there was actually any yuck on the swab...there was pretty much nothing...so that means my calibration tape is okay??

4. Loaded my relatively fresh reel of RMGI 911 tape, played the tape until about 26:00, and then did a mix of fast REW, REW spool and play back on to the RMGI reel. Below are pictures of the sync and erase heads. Is what you see unacceptable? You can see oxide between tracks 1 & 2 on the sync head, also on track 7 and in between tracks 7 & 8. In that same picture you can see bits of oxide on the upper portion of the scrape filter. You can see oxide loaded up in the gap on the erase head. ALSO, when I am cleaning the erase head its like the swab catches in the center of it...like it has sharp spots or something. It *looks* fine to me, but its like stray fibers of the swab catch. Is that normal?

Sweetbeats,

What's the deal with track 7 on the erase head ? Something looks wacked.

Danny

 

[Richard King]

Sweetbeats,

What's the deal with track 7 on the erase head ? Something looks wacked.

Danny

I think you're seeing a reflection of something.

 

[sweetbeats]

cjacek,

Thanks for the clarification on the cotton pads.

Never heard back from Phil Paske a RMGI. I'll keep trying.

Dano,

Yeah, Richard is right...its just a reflection. I was holding a piece of paper up to the head, and it must not have covered that far.

 

[hilltop studios]

Sweet Beats,
Sorry to hear your having a problem with RMGI 911. I'm paste-ing in a thread I had started a while back when I was having trouble with RMGI 911 when I first got my MS16. You may have already read it and if so just dis-regard this as perhaps your problem is not related. In my case the shedding was a machine issue so here it is. Good Luck, Dave

RMGI 911 Shedding

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recently there has been a lot of posts on various recording forums in regard to RMGI tape with shedding problems. I thought my recent experience would be good info to pass along so here goes.
Back in February 07 I acquired a well used Tascam MS16 and after a lot of re-furb work (cleaning, replacing relays, calibration etc.) I started using the machine in some actual sessions a couple of weeks ago. An hour or so into the session I began noticing oxide building up on the tape path like I have never seen. Everything, guides, lifters, heads was coated with brown dust. Now back when I was doing calibration on the machine I had noticed a little oxide but at the time I didn't think it would be a problem. Also I could see my guides and lifters had some wear marks but that didn't seem abnormal considering my machines age and the fact it was used in a professional facility. Now however having to stop after every song or two and clean the tape path just wasn't going to work. Managed to get through those sessions and I was kinda baffled as to why I was having so much shed. I put a call into US Recording Media from whom I had purchased the one inch RMGI 911. The rep I spoke with wasn't aware of any problems with 911 but he put me in touch with a RMGI tech rep. (Phil Paske) I had a nice long conversation with him,(he actually walked me through the tape manufacture process) Anyway basically here's what he told me.
If your machine has a lot of wear marks on guides, rollers, lifters etc or it has been fed Ampex/Quantegy 456 for most of it's life you will see more (possibly a lot) of shedding with RMGI. This is because of the slightly wider footprint of the tape. Ampex?Quantegy was purposely under-slit. Now if in the past you have used BASF/EMTEC 911 (on the same machine) with no shedding and now with RMGI you are seeing a lot of shedding then obviously something else is wrong because RMGI should be the same as the older BASF/Emtec. I have used Emtec 911 for years on my MSR-16 and I could run it all day and barely see any shed. However now with my MS16 and RMGI it was brown dust city. The rep asked me about my machine and I had to confess that yes I had wear marks on my guides and lifters (I could feel a slight edge in some places when running my fingernail across the surface) and yes the previous owners had always fed it Ampex. They had offered up a mountain of it to me when I bought the machine from them but that tape was all sticky shed. Also I should mention the machine had sat unused for years as well. OK I'm getting to the happy part are you still with me ??
The RMGI rep suggested I try rotating the guides and lifters if possible, running some more tape and seeing if the shed was still excessive. I completed that last night, ran the same reels for hours and not a speck was to be found I know it's easy to jump on a new company (hey I was ready to demand new tape) especially after springing for 400+ dollars on a case of one inch. You might want to be sure it's not a machine issue first. I'm a happy camper, my MS16 is much happier and my experience with RMGI tells me they are a class company. I should also mention the rep wanted me to get back to him one way or another with the results and if I wasn't satisfied he would happily replace my tape. He also told me they did have issues with some 900 formula early on but he wasn't aware of any issues with 911. Hopefully this will help someone out there and calm a lot of folks who were criticizing RMGI. Regards, Dave

 

[sweetbeats]

Dave,

I *do* remember that post, but it is very appropriate here and gives me pause to consider...

I am pretty certain that the shedding is not related to my tape path. I did rotate the guides when I first went through the deck, but it was really more of a picky formality than anyhing as the guides had litle more than a burnish on them anyway. The lifter posts (to my knowledge) cannot be rotated, but like the guides are just barely burnished. The heads themselves, as mentioned above, are in very good condition. When I started all this 18 months or so ago, I knew little about how to identify the relative condition of the tape path. Knowing what I know now, while not an expert by any means, I'd say my 58 saw very little use.

I say all this not in defense, but rather sort of "thinking" out loud and going back through my logic.

Now, that being said, I *have* suspected my test tape (which I think is probably Quantegy stock) is a slightly more narrow than my RMGI tape. Its part of what took me so long to align the tape path because I ended up essentially trying to find a compromise between the two, but in the end there is no buckling/curling/drifting that can be seen under close scrutiny by the naked eye.

Just got a magnifying glass though, so I'm going to take a closer look.

 

[hilltop studios]

Sweet Beats,
I kinda figured you probably would have checked your tape path well as you have been very thorough with everything so far and not just looking for a quick fix ! That's a compliment. I'm not sure what the lifters are like on a 58 but the ones on my ms16 were not "really" rotatable either however....I remembered someones post I believe back on the old tascam forum where they had lifters that were well worn and after removing the lifter assembly from the machine and placing it carefully in a vice "padded of course" they were able to rotate the lifter "posts" (part the tape rubs on) by grasping them carefully with some padded vice grips and ever so gently turning them. Be very careful not to scratch them. On my machine they seem to just be pressed into a brass housing and they will turn. I'm not sure this was how tascam intended for them to be serviced (probably not) but since these parts were no longer available I really had no choice. Mine were well worn and the edges of the 911 tape were catching on the ridges of the lifters and shedding a lot. Once rotated my shedding has reduced 99%. I have also read about some folks placing a sleeve over their lifter and curing the problem that way. Might be hard to find just the right size sleeve. I guess if you had a machine shop buddy they could probably make new lifters Anyway good luck, just thought I would chime back in and share my lifting (I mean lifter) experience. Good Luck, Dave

 

[Beck]

I remembered someones post I believe back on the old tascam forum where they had lifters that were well worn and after removing the lifter assembly from the machine and placing it carefully in a vice "padded of course" they were able to rotate the lifter "posts" (part the tape rubs on) by grasping them carefully with some padded vice grips and ever so gently turning them. Be very careful not to scratch them. On my machine they seem to just be pressed into a brass housing and they will turn. I'm not sure this was how tascam intended for them to be serviced (probably not) but since these parts were no longer available I really had no choice.

I posted that on the old Tascam analog forum or maybe the new tascamforums.com... I think that's where because I can't find it here.

I had some tense moments doing it though.

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=2054263&postcount=2

I wouldn't want to try it again. I've thought about covering the lifters with stainless steel tubes or glass tubes like you would find in a chemistry lab, given I can find the right size. They should fit tight enough so they don’t turn on the original lifter shafts.

I’ve put the search for tubes on the back burner since my lifters aren’t showing any significant wear since I turned them, but I think that’s the way to go in the future.

You could also buy solid stainless tube stock, then drill and tap for a screw like Tascam should have done. Maybe they had problems with the tape unscrewing the lifters, but I know many machines have screws holding the lifters on the assembly.

You might try a search for “lifters” by Beck at tascamforums.com in the Analog and DIY sections. I would but I'm, uh... "Unregistered"

 

[sweetbeats]

Dave,

Thanks for the compliment! You and others have *really* helped keep me going on this which helps to provide the energy to be thorough.

GREAT input on the lifters...didn't even think of attempting to rotate them that way. I don't need it at the moment (I don't *think* I do anyway...), but I'm sure I will one day, and I bet other folks can benefit now, so thank you for putting the info up!

General update:

Won an auction on a T2-20-ML Tentelometer...paid a premium for it, but it is complete and appears to be in VGC...and it is the right one!

STILL waiting to hear back from RMGI...

I did some digging and found an oscilloscope application for my PC. When I go back through and recheck the alignment and calibration I'll check azimuth with that instead of the no o'scope method. I'll post up my results to see how closely the two methods represent.

I'm going to be starting a parallel thread soon regarding getting the 58 to sync as slave to Cubase. I thought it might be valuable to take everybody through that 'story' as well, and I know I'll need some feedback already as it is uncharted territory for me.

 

[cjacek]

Cory, in your particular situation, there is absolutely nothing in your tape path, as far as wear, which would indicate a problem for any tape. The RMGI batch that you have is surely the problem here, as Beck already mentioned and at least some of your audio problems surely masqueraded as simply bad tape. I wouldn't start rotating any lifters. It's not your machine, it's the tape.

----

 

[sweetbeats]

Talked to Phil Paske at RMGI...

Phil Paske had not called me back sooner because my return number was garbled on my message to him. I called him again and he was happy that I did so...

There is a process to go through to confirm the tape is the culprit (with my shedding), but he did say my reel is from one of the very early batches, and that it certainly could be the total cause or at least a significant contributor.

He took the time to talk with me about my machine, alignment process, as well as the cause behind some of the faulty batches of tape that went out from the factory. He said their worst batches early on had a 5-6% fail rate in the field, and that, basically, they have 0% fail rate for anything that has gone out in the last 6 months. Those are good figures, and the fact that you can call or email the guy and get your problem addressed is great.

He expressed his frustration with people complaining about problems and not calling the manufacturer.

I told him that, as consumers, that is the way we are being cultured. It is not typically like "back in the day" anymore. A few bad apples spoil the bushel and we have all had experiences with companies that push lots of product and won't give you the time of day. That's why we get so excited and giddy anymore when somebody goes out of their way to help and support you through backing up their product and taking care of you.

Well, I can say that, even at this early stage in my alleged bad tape, I feel taken care of and I'm definitely sticking (NO PUN INTENDED!!!) with RMGI.

Just wanted to let y'all know lest my concerns above about RMGI's follow-through steer anybody away from using or trying their product.

The nice thing is that Phil has been with the RMGI legacy since the days of BASF. That is a lot of years and provides for consistency in customer treatment and product development. That is another reason why it is unfair to call RMGI a "new" company as some have done.

 

[cjacek]

Cory, it's great that you've had your concerns taken care of.

While I understand Phil's take on the situation, he must understand that it is unacceptable to have problem tape out of the gate like that, especially that RMGI went out of their way to market their product on the back of EMTEC's reputation.

What really ticked off some people was that, initially, RMGI was quick to blame people's tape paths rather than look at their own manufacturing practices. I also recall, at the height of problems with some of the tape, sending an email to RMGI and trying to persuade them to join this particular forum (and others I listed as well) and discuss the issues people were having. My emails were left unanswered and no one, from RMGI, has ever attempted to post even a single post on this or any other forum, to the best of my knowledge.

Rather, RMGI, found it in their best interest, apparently, to increase prices significantly, while doing absolutely nothing to alleviate people's concerns over the bad batches of tape (at least at the beginning).

RMGI's communication with the public at large is poor, for the most part and their way of handling issues, not acceptable. Sure, they'll exchange tapes and enable one to communicate with one of their representatives but still, if this is not a new company then it sure as hell behaves like one. There is nothing BASF or EMTEC about it, except their oxide.

For a company who basically took over production from the former EMTEC, had most if not all of their original equipment plus tape recipes / formulas, to start out with a 5 - 6% failure rate and then blame it all on people's machines, is embarrassing.

Why are we just now getting bits and pieces of the truth from RMGI?

How can a consumer retain confidence in light of the above?

-------

 

[Beck]

Talked to Phil Paske at RMGI...

As long as the conversation with Paske results in you getting new tape, that’s cool

Just for reference, there was a little frustration on the consumer side too, as RMGI wasn't fessing up as to all the causes at first... nothing on their website when the problem started or since and even though US Recording Media (their primary vendor at the time) went into some detail about tape width differences they said nothing about problems with the formulations even though many of us knew there was a problem.

The web discussions started innocently enough: “Hey my RMGI 911 is shedding all over the place… is anyone else having this problem or is my machine f**ked?”

In a way I can understand RMGI trying to keep it under wraps and just fixing it, considering the original Ampex/3M shedding (sticky-shed) crisis was as much to blame for the end of tape as advances in digital technology. That’s when most of the industry made the big switch. It was a disaster of Biblical proportions that not a lot of people these days can appreciate. Anyway, no tape company wants to say “Shed” especially in today’s limited market.

On the other hand tape companies have always had bad batches so it would be no big deal to most of us if they had made an announcement, rather than have the web do it for them. The rumors were worse than the truth… 5-6% ain’t bad. The most important thing being they are willing to quickly replace the bad tape.

But even the width thing... well considering that back when Maxell, BASF, 3M, and Ampex were all still making tape, Ampex/Quantegy had about 75% of the world market, IMO 12.5mm for half-inch tape isn’t too narrow, but rather 12.7mm is too wide.

Keep us posted on the final resolution... that will be how we measure RMGI customer service for future reference. We all hope they succeed, but if we can't afford it and they don't back their product it won't matter.

 

[sweetbeats]

Phil Paske at RMGI warned me initially that there might be a delay on shipment of the replacement reel because every shipment that comes over from the Netherlands is already spoken for. To further complicate things for me I had email problems on my end so he didn't get the RFI back from me until yesterday afternoon about my SM911 problem. Nevertheless I received a UPS ship notification this morning! My replacement tape is on the way...very little hassle.

Received my T2-H20-ML Tentelometer yesterday as well. Looks to be in VGC with all original parts and bits included. I'm looking forward to trying it out. I didn't realize that it could tell you more than the tape tension. According to the manual there are a number of diagnostic conclusions that can be made based on the guage's response...bad pinch roller, bent or worn capstan, servo motor issues...pretty cool. Here's hoping for smooth response on my 58!

Also received a "parts or repair" 48 today. $128 shipped. cjacek, don't worry...it was packed well ...huge box with nearly 100% of the airspace filled with custom-cut styrofoam blocking...even cut out holes in one piece for the reel adapters and headblock...notched out for the front panel switches too.

I've only been able to look at the face so far. Apparently, it had a brake issue, was taken to the shop and when the owner got the bill for the diagnostics and the estimate for the repair he/she never picked it up. Seller was cleaning out the storeroom.

If you all would like I could give a play by play of my discoveries as I assess if I have a treasure or a fancy anchor.

So far what I saw was that the splicing block is gone and the reel table trims are gone, but everything else that I should see on the face is there...heads show some wear but they are in good enough shape that I couldn't tell at first, and what wear there is is even. Lifter and guide wear coincides. It has the RM-501 rack ears installed...takeup table spins freely, supply table brake is engaged...that confirms the brake issue story...anyway, I figure that with the rack ears and headblock alone I could make my money back if it turns out to be a disaster...except..uh...I need the rack ears for my 48 and...ah...might be nice to have a spare set of heads for my 48 and 58...and...ah...

I'll get it all the way out of the box tonight and plug it in and see what happens.

 

[cjacek]

Nevertheless I received a UPS ship notification this morning! My replacement tape is on the way...very little hassle.

Great to know! Thanks for updating us on this issue.

Received my T2-H20-ML Tentelometer yesterday as well. Looks to be in VGC with all original parts and bits included. I'm looking forward to trying it out. I didn't realize that it could tell you more than the tape tension. According to the manual there are a number of diagnostic conclusions that can be made based on the guage's response...bad pinch roller, bent or worn capstan, servo motor issues...pretty cool. Here's hoping for smooth response on my 58!

I think I almost bid on that tentelometer! There was only the one on eBay and it was ending early in the morning, if I recall correct.. I ended up passing on it, reason which escapes me now [but I think it had something to do with being low on $$ at the moment!]. Anyway, I'm still looking for one of these but it's cool you've got one, finally....

Also received a "parts or repair" 48 today. $128 shipped. cjacek, don't worry...it was packed well ...huge box with nearly 100% of the airspace filled with custom-cut styrofoam blocking...even cut out holes in one piece for the reel adapters and headblock...notched out for the front panel switches too.

Ha! Hey, you've made my day [on the packing issue]!

Hey, would you mind posting a picture of the packing job? Nothing extensive, just a couple of photos? I'm immensely curious as to how it looked. Other than recorder picts, there's nothing better than some good packing shots!

If you all would like I could give a play by play of my discoveries as I assess if I have a treasure or a fancy anchor.

Yeah, that'd be cool!

Oh, BTW, Cory, I found some info that you may be interested in [from your previous questions, about the scrape flutter filter on your 58]:

One other potential noise source is the scrape flutter filter, a roller located between the record and playback heads designed to support the tape so it behaves less like a resonating guitar string. You can easily test it by applying a little bit of finger pressure. If the noise stops, the roller should be removed, disassembled, and lubricated with analog watch oil.

The above excerpt was taken from the excellent article in Electronic Musician by Eddie Ciletti, "Joining the reel world". Here's the original link [a great and informative read]:
http://emusician.com/daw/emusic_joining_reel_world/index.html

[I actually like to copy and paste it in a separate thread].

------

 

[ausrock]

Received my T2-H20-ML Tentelometer yesterday as well. Looks to be in VGC with all original parts and bits included.

Great news. One thing I heard about when I was hunting for one was that the foam cut-out in the case gardually deteriorates with time until it become quite sticky and a PIB...........

ChrisO.