Studio Projects

[Ronan]

I gotta say that aside from the silly name calling stuff, this is a great thread! A lot of home recordist live in a bubble and do not get to spend time having these arguments over a beer with a bunch of other engineers like pros or recording school students. It healthy and we all learn a lot from it.

Just so I am clear, I have never "bashed" SP mics. In my one blind shoot out they did not live up to the hype. When I hear a low priced SP mic that kicks my ass I will buy a ton of them and tell all my peers and students to buy them.

im still curious which models of Studio Projects mics he tested......ronan?

Itwas a B3, while not the most expensive mic they make, the SP web site claims "The B3 while priced at only $199.00, will compete favorably with microphones costing substantially more. If your looking for that traditional "German" sounding pedigree for your studio, but simply can't or won't spend the big dollars it takes to get it, then the Studio Projects B3 it the microphone for you." A profession engineer I respect told me and my pal that he loved his and it was as good as his Neuman U87s etc. We were excited to test it. Our blind tests were done on mal voice, grand piano, upright piano, percussion and appalacian dulcimer. In every case the SP B3 was an OK mic but was not subjectively in the same league as a Shure KSM 32, An AT4060 or a Microtech-Geffell UM70s. Our tests were blind and we did not share our opions until the end. Myself and my very successful engineer freind came to the same conclusion about the SP in every test. While the mic did not flatter or acurately capture the sound source, it did not butcher it which is an acomplishment for a sub $200 condensor for which SP should be proud.

57's and a 4 track? ok.....
but instead of a bunch of 57's, how about a 57, a SP B1, a mxlv67, etc etc.....a few different flavors......or are you gonna tell me these mics arent even on par with a 57......

Good point. To me the Shure SM57 is one of the best mics ever built and if I was on a desert island with only one mic to record with it would probably be a Shure SM57 . I enourage home recordists to own 3 mics. A Shure SM57, a Shure Beta52, and one good large diaphram condensor. There are very few records that can not be made and sound great with just these three mics. I always try to pound this into the heads of new engineers. By a few really good tools instead of a lot of cheap when ever possible.

 

[BJW]

One thing that I find funny is that this dude alan hyatt is really sensitive about them pea pickin mics. Everbody has to be able to take good criticism. Its funny to read you guys going back and forth like kids. To me it seems like if alan really believed in his products he wouldn't get so upset about forum discussions. You never see no other president of a company talking crazy execpt this dude.

I also find this very interesting. I played football in college, and there were tons of message boards dedicated to the conference I played in. These boards were full of players engaging in "my dad is better than your dad" and "my dick is bigger than your dick" conversations. It was completely stupid, and common sense told everybody that the real battle was waged on Saturday afternoon, not in some message board. The coaches never ever posted in any forums - I would have been shocked if they did - but I always wondered what would happen if they had posted.

I know that Allen or any of the other PMI Audio Group guys posting is not totally analogous to a coach posting in the college football forum situation I described - they post so they can offer support for their products, but sometimes it turns into a bloody message board war, which is stupid. Just like we played a football game to see who was the best team, we have our studios to see which is the best mike. I'm not going to make up my mind that a C1 can beat a neuman until they "play" each other in my pathetic excuse for a studio - the only problem is I will never get a neuman in my studio to try it. But I will say this, the sheer attention these SP mikes get in these forums makes me want to try one out, bad.

-Brian

 

[jeffree]

Good point, BJW. These continued SP jabs still tire me but also make me smile as SP (via Allan) piles up the free publicity. I'm beginning to think that DJL is on the SP payroll since he, more than anyone else, seems to keep these threads rolling and keep SP in the spotlight. Stranger things have happened, and I'll bet that SP has made a lot of sales from folks reading here, wondering what all the fuss is about.

Fortunately, SP has a great line of *budget* mics to promote and some of the best support in the biz.

J.

P.S. In the cheapie realm, some of us much prefer the $99 B1 to the more expensive B3--they do sound different. If you're considering one of them, I'd find a way to compare them before deciding. The cheaper B1 might be the better mic for you, too.

 

[Han]

Good point, BJW. These continued SP jabs still tire me but also make me smile as SP (via Allan) piles up the free publicity. I'm beginning to think that DJL is on the SP payroll since he, more than anyone else, seems to keep these threads rolling and keep SP in the spotlight. Stranger things have happened, and I'll bet that SP has made a lot of sales from folks reading here, wondering what all the fuss is about.

Fortunately, SP has a great line of *budget* mics to promote and some of the best support in the biz.

J.

P.S. In the cheapie realm, some of us much prefer the $99 B1 to the more expensive B3--they do sound different. If you're considering one of them, I'd find a way to compare them before deciding. The cheaper B1 might be the better mic for you, too.

Good point! I have no experience with the T3, so I don't know how it sounds, but I do have a Neumann M149 which I can use for compairing mics to.

I also have an MXL V77 which is a very nice sounding tube mic, a tad brighter and a tad less silky in the highs than the M149, but sounds pretty much alike. And there's hardly any discussion about the V77 on these boards, while it's loaded with SP discussions.

 

[chessrock]

About 6 months ago there was a blind comparison between the SP T3, the ADK A48 and the Neumann M149, on a few different sources, IIRC. I can't remember the forum to which it was posted, might have been recording.org, the listening session forum or the Gearslutz forum.

There was quite a long thread which followed, which for the most part was a healthy discussion.

Yea, and if I remember correctly, the Neumann spanked the SP and the ADK.

Wasn't even a close race.

 

[Gidge]

Spare bedrooms don't have anything to do with it. I'm merely offering my opinions, as opinions, based on my own direct experience. You're offering yours as if they were fact, based on other people's opinions. There's a difference. And no, I'm not participating in any listening tests. I've already got a small group of fellow Tapeopers who do these kinds of tests anyway. It's nothing new. I'll invite you along to the next one if you don't mind coming out to Chicago sometime.

i think almost all of have experience with the "big boy" mics just by listening thru your CD,tape, and album collections.....maybe not very scientific, but hey, it works for me.....

then listening to something recorded with one of the mics in question and play it side by side and to me, they are in the same league.....ive also heard some trash recorded with them but that goes to the inexperience of the engineer......

as far as the off axis comments, im not AS interested in what a mic cant do, rather than what it CAN.......

 

[alanhyatt]

Yea, and if I remember correctly, the Neumann spanked the SP and the ADK.

Wasn't even a close race.

Well, you fail to mention that there were several that went the other way. Here is one for you all to try....

U87ai vs C1

 

[alanhyatt]

Here is another one you can listen to.... You can scroll down the page a bit to get to the clips, or you can read the entire article...

Click Here

 

[chessrock]

In those guitar examples, the U87 clip sounds much fuller; not as twangy and thin-sounding as the C3 and/or B1.

 

[Han]

Anything you can do I can do better, I can do anything better than you.
No you can't.......YES I CAN! No you can't.......YES I CAN! No you can't....... YES I CAN! YES I CAN!

Anybody know that old song?

Besides that, this server sucks:

"The server is too busy at the moment. Please try again later".

Yawn, I'm outta here, seeya.

 

[new388]

I'm not quite sure what the point of the discussion is. The B1 is a $100 mic. Of course it's not going to be as good as the other "higher end" condensers costing anywhere from 5 to 10 times as much. The C1 is only $200 and again, it's dumb to compare to the higher end mics.

Of course you realize there are those of us who own the B-1 and C-1 who also own high end mics and that many of us feel the B anc C are infact as good sounding or in some cases better sounding than Mics that cost 5 to ten times as much. So in reality some of us think they ARE as good as mics costing many times as much. My B-1 sounds better on my voice and on my acoustic guitar than any high end large condenser I own. That being said it doesn't sound as good on my girlfriends voice as some of my other mics.

 

[chessparov]

It's getting hot in the kitchen (again).

Acorec, I have great respect for the MD441 and RE20.
There have been many times, however, where the SM57 has been preferred
over them.

For example, on Paul Mc Cartney's "Ram", the RE20 was was used on
"Admiral Halsey/Hands Across The Water", the U87 was used on the more melodic vocal tracks, and a SM57 on his rockier ones.

Was surprised to learn that Hall & Oates "Sarah" was done on a SM57 through
a Spectra Sonics(sic?) board instead of a higher end one BTW.

I agree with "Dot" (Dan Richards) that the B1 sounds very "modern" on vocals generally-meant in a good way. T3 has the vintage vibe in that line.

The Marshall V69ME has too strong a coloration for my taste, although Harvey seems to like it also a lot.

Unless I'd be able to sell the U87ai and keep the $$$ difference, would definitely pick the T3 over it HANDS DOWN it kicked its butt for me.
(if they cost the same)

Chris

 

[mshilarious]

Well, you fail to mention that there were several that went the other way. Here is one for you all to try....

U87ai vs C1

Disclosure: I own no SP or Neumann mics, never used 'em either. I thus have no opinion of either. Mostly I have Shure & Beyer.

The u87 sounds the best. The B1 didn't sound good at all, way too brittle. The C3 sounded OK, but the highs are hyped and the low-mids aren't as warm as the u87. The C3 might be good on a twelve string with the highs rolled off a bit. Both SPs sound a little distorted in the highs. Could be an interesting effect, but on a simple solo guitar track I wouldn't reach for them.

Honestly though, I didn't like any these tones that much. Very sterile, but at least the highs aren't painful with the u87. Could be the instrument. It sounds very tense.

The 9098 sounded so much better than the VTB & Mackie that I'm not sure what the point of that comparison is. Actually a little depressing for those of us with low-end pres. I wonder what the u87 through the VTB sounds like? Bottom line is that one of us with an SP through a Mackie is never gonna touch a pro studio with a u87 and a Neve.

 

[chessparov]

Per Harvey (correct me if mistaken!), VTB-1 pre + RCA 77 ribbon sounds
first rate.

Plus...

Usually the better vocal mic fit on a given voice (could be an SP over U87ai),
will overide a better mic pre vs. a Mackie or better.

Total track count will further affect this of course, it's fairy subtle to most listeners though (non-audiophiles/non-musicians that comprise 99.9%+).

Chris

 

[omtayslick]

OK. I want to play too. Regarding the clips: Unfortunately the guy didn't play them consistently. My overall preference was the U67. But I think it's because it was played slower and let the tone develop.

I know they're just MP3's and all, but it sounded to me like someone might use any of those mics, depending on the sound they're after, and the context of the mix. etc.

 

[Bodhisan]

This is a good thread -- even just for the soap opera affect. After I record in my studio for a couple hours a day, I always enjoy popping into this forum instead of watching t.v. for my entertainment/enlightenment/education/information. And it's all for free!!!! Cable's getting rather expensive.

A couple of good points made: The inexpensive Chinese mikes aren't cheap because they're made in China by Chinese. They're inexpensive because of the cheap labor and inexpensive parts. I don't have the T3, but according to those whose opinions I trust, it is made with good quality parts, and is on par with mikes made in countries that have garnered respect for making good mikes (Germany).

So, lay off the Chinese -- they're making what we Americans are asking them to make, whether they use inexpensive parts or high quality parts. Their labor is just as good as anybody else's labor -- probably more precise if we pay them appropriately to do so. The Chinese are very disciplined and have a reputation for being extremely hard workers and quite the craftsmen/women.

The other good point is that we're sidestepping the real issue -- make good music and capture the good performance. It's not going to matter if it's a C1, U87, SM57 or SM7...or fill in the blank. Like Gidge said, when I listen to music I know was made in good studios, I really can't hear the difference between their records and what I record with my Pro Tools Mbox and the C1, MXL603's and SM57 that I use. That makes me grin! I'm sure when you hook things up and check the frequencies and all that other garbage you can read the difference, but who gives a rat's ass about that?

Let's make and record good music with the mikes of our choice. Be nice to each other, support one another (because we're all brothers and sisters in this audio world) and hold hands when you cross the street. But, hey, in the same breath, don't let me stop any of this horse play -- I need my cheap entertainment.

 

[sdelsolray]

Yea, and if I remember correctly, the Neumann spanked the SP and the ADK.

Wasn't even a close race.

Well I do remember that the M149 was very easy to pick out. Perhaps that's cuz I had one at that time, so I know the sound. Most of the discussion dealt with comparing the ADK A48 with the SP T3. I thought that the ADK TT would make for a better head to head comparison with the SP T3, as the A48 is more directed towards a U47-type sound. Dunno.

I agree. The M149 smoked the other two, and those were mp3 files IIRC. Other high end tube mics, such as models made by Lawson, Soundelux, Brauner and Microtech Gefell would do the same.

 

[CGibson]

OK I’ll play along with this on going thread.

I’ve owned SP’s top of the line mic since it was released.
The LSD2
As most of you probably already know it’s a dual capsule stereo mic that consist of two of the C3 capsules.
So……..
Is it a functional mic that works well for many applications? Yes
Is it a great mic because of the stereo caps and options? Yes
Would I buy the C3 single cap unit? No

Let’s get real guys. If they made an AKG 414 with stereo capsules for the same price, this thing would be so out the door tomorrow.

But on the other hand I had the AKG C4000 for several years and the C3 capsule is a slightly cleaner sounding unit.

It makes me smile when I read outrageous comparisons. “SP goes head to head with Neumann, who will win?”

Oh Please…….




C

 

[Flatpicker]

...I'm beginning to think that DJL is on the SP payroll since he, more than anyone else, seems to keep these threads rolling and keep SP in the spotlight. Stranger things have happened, and I'll bet that SP has made a lot of sales from folks reading here, wondering what all the fuss is about...

Exactly! If DJL's not on PMI's payroll, then Alan should pay him a commission because he probably sells more SP mics than some stores, LOL! Every time he bashes PMI, someone will post "I just ordered a C1" - ROTFL!!

(I was laughing so hard I made a bunch of typos!)

 

[chessrock]

Most of the discussion dealt with comparing the ADK A48 with the SP T3. I thought that the ADK TT would make for a better head to head comparison with the SP T3, as the A48 is more directed towards a U47-type sound.

Yea, I seem to remember that I was most impressed with how well the T-3 did against the ADK, which is somewhat more expensive. From that standpoint, I thought the T-3 was outstanding -- I liked it better than the (more expensive) ADK. And even though the Neumann spanked both of them, I was impressed with how narrow the gap was between it and the other two. I expected it to spank them more than it did, in other words.