question about track bouncing on tape

[rob aylestone]

In the tape days, drift was an issue, big time. Nowadays, I never worry about sync at all. So many ways to fix it. Cubase, for example can stretch and shrink your files to match sync points very simply. A drum snare is visible in the waveform, and you have a brass player playing stabs that are always a bit er, random. Cubase will grab those stabs and put the, where they should be. If you have a stereo mic, and somehow the left and right were recorded on different recorders running separately, then I dont think that is fixable as even tiny slippage in time moves the stereo image. Other than that, I have been able to cure dropped frames and other bizarre things.

I edit lots of video, and sync is never an issue. My standard mode is where audio is only shifted by the video frame rate, so camera audio and direct recorded audio is never spot on, but even at 25 frames a second, the non aligned audio is not an issue, being in effect, half a frame out at worst. I can use different modes to slip the audio to perfection, but it is rarely worth the effort

 

[TalismanRich]

It might be better to stretch/squeeze the tracks rather than cut and shift them.

I was thinking the same thing. Put a transient marker at the beginning and and, grab all 4 tracks and stretch or squish them all at the same time to match up the DAW versions.

 

[groucho]

I was thinking the same thing. Put a transient marker at the beginning and and, grab all 4 tracks and stretch or squish them all at the same time to match up the DAW versions.

Cubase will grab those stabs and put the, where they should be.

I feel like either we're talking about different things or (more likely) I'm not clear on what y'all are referring to there. The idea is to retain exactly what was originally recorded, not "stretch" or automatically "quantize" anything. I certainly don't want the software making decisions about "where something should be."

When I "stretch" something in my software it alters the file to affect either the pitch or the length and would either screw up the original phrasing, or affect the sound. But maybe I'm misunderstanding you or that term? I have old software.

But you're right that you can do all 4 at once. That's why it doesn't take very long.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I feel like either we're talking about different things or (more likely) I'm not clear on what y'all are referring to there. The idea is to retain exactly what was originally recorded, not "stretch" or automatically "quantize" anything. I certainly don't want the software making decisions about "where something should be."

When I "stretch" something in my software it alters the file to affect either the pitch or the length and would either screw up the original phrasing, or affect the sound. But maybe I'm misunderstanding you or that term? I have old software.

But you're right that you can do all 4 at once. That's why it doesn't take very long.

When you play analog audio and the speed changes, it's causing pitch changes. Using stretch or squeeze to compensate exactly reverses what happened in the analog playback, including correcting the pitch changes. If you cut and shift clips of audio, you're failing to correct the pitch alterations caused by the analog playback. Analog never retains exactly what was recorded.

 

[groucho]

When you play analog audio and the speed changes, it's causing pitch changes. Using stretch or squeeze to compensate exactly reverses what happened in the analog playback, including correcting the pitch changes. If you cut and shift clips of audio, you're failing to correct the pitch alterations caused by the analog playback. Analog never retains exactly what was recorded.

I think we have different goals here - or different versions of a similar goal. I'm not interested in correcting things at the level you're describing. But good to have all this info in the thread!

Oddly, it doesn't seem like very many of the people who post regularly in this forum are big fans of recording to tape, but for those of us having fun with tape, this is still one of the only active "analog/tape" forums online these days, so just wanted to have this out there in case it's helpful to anyone who has similar goals to mine.

Cheers, y'all!

 

[bouldersoundguy]

You suggested that doing digital processing that affects pitch was a bad thing, but you seem to be okay with analog effects that do exactly the same thing (except that the analog effect makes it less like the original performance while the digital process makes it more like the original performance). Your position seems consistent.

Perhaps the reason some of us aren't all that into analog recording is because we lived through it the first time around, and when digital arrived we understood just what we gained. That will tend to color our advice. I'm not telling you not to record on analog tape, I'm just telling you what it will do.

You might find this interesting: https://www.celemony.com/en/capstan

 

[Old Music Guy]

Once in a while you'll see one on the side of the road with the hood up.

No "Check Engine Lights", I bet There are wrenches in the trunk and a Chilton's.
I remember the days when we set the point gap with a match book, tuned timing with a glass of water on the air cleaner, and turned the distributor until the water didn't shake.
Ahh. The good old days

 

[Old Music Guy]

When you play analog audio and the speed changes, it's causing pitch changes. Using stretch or squeeze to compensate exactly reverses what happened in the analog playback, including correcting the pitch changes.

That's true. But it defeats the purpose of recording on tape.
My Revox is pretty awesome. If I want perfect, I'll use a DAW. But then again, I can always blame my clams on the "Ghost in the Machine".

 

[bouldersoundguy]

That's true. But it defeats the purpose of recording on tape.
My Revox is pretty awesome. If I want perfect, I'll use a DAW. But then again, I can always blame my clams on the "Ghost in the Machine".

In this case, he's trying to sync up things recorded on tape and digitized separately. It's not so much about being perfect but about making the error of one match the error of the other. Also, there are different kinds of imperfection. Tape speed is a different thing from frequency response or distortion. Someone might want one but not the others. He's free to correct it how he sees fit, I'm just pointing out the conceptual error that squeezing/stretching is somehow causing an error rather than correcting it.

 

[TalismanRich]

No "Check Engine Lights", I bet There are wrenches in the trunk and a Chilton's.
I remember the days when we set the point gap with a match book, tuned timing with a glass of water on the air cleaner, and turned the distributor until the water didn't shake.
Ahh. The good old days

Do you think AAA will bring you a belt for a Chevy 350 small block with a Roots blower?

I feel like either we're talking about different things or (more likely) I'm not clear on what y'all are referring to there. The idea is to retain exactly what was originally recorded, not "stretch" or automatically "quantize" anything. I certainly don't want the software making decisions about "where something should be."

When I "stretch" something in my software it alters the file to affect either the pitch or the length and would either screw up the original phrasing, or affect the sound. But maybe I'm misunderstanding you or that term? I have old software.

But you're right that you can do all 4 at once. That's why it doesn't take very long.

I don't know what DAW you are using, but I would suggest it would be worth your time to take a track, dump it to your DAW from your cassette, and then use the stretch function to see if you can tell any difference. How well does the stretched file mate up to the direct DAW reference you have made. A drum track would be a perfect way to check this.

In Reaper, holding down the ALT key and grabbing the end of the file allows you to stretch it to fit the length you need without changing pitch.

If your drift is 1/2 second over 5 minutes, I doubt that you will hear any issue. Any tempo variation will be minuscule and should actually correct the error introduced in the transfer. You already have your "tape goodness". Match up your DAW version with the stretched tape > DAW version and see if there is a difference. It's totally reversible with a single keypress, and you can go back to your slice and dice method if you think it destroyed the sound.

 

[Old Music Guy]

Do you think AAA will bring you a belt for a Chevy 350 small block with a Roots blower?

That's why I always kept a pair of pantyhose in the glove box.
(My ex believed it!)