Pre amp for bus use

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FrankD77

FrankD77

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I was looking for a tube preamp to "color" and "tame" the Final mix or drum bus.

Original I wanted to buy a more hifi aimed pre amp till I found this one pretty cheap.

Testing soon :)
Maybe experiment with different tubes.
Always fun.

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Did some measurements.
It's not a high end pre amp but to my surprise it does have a nice effect on the masterbus. It's not a 100% improvement but it does shave off some of the "pain" frequencies and glues it together

So i wanted to see what it does.
First is without
And second one is with

Interesting enough even with the compressor off the pre amp has some positive very slight compression. Which i did not expect from a tube amp that doesn't run at full power.

Input was set just below clipping with white noise.




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I'm not sure what I'm looking at. 😆 Is that sort of a two axis waveform scatterplot, amplitude vertical and stereo spread horizontal, with a mono signal? If so that's also doing a SLIGHT amount of stereo widening, it seems.

I haven't tried, but I've been curious to try this with my BAEs. I assume take a line level output and then feed it into a DI level input?
 
Stereo signal.
Because i can't link the channels i have to balance the two sides.

In logic you can send white noise to a channel
Make sure the IO is after the noise. But before the meter tool. In the meter tool you can select the way you want to meter.

Without the pre amp it should be a straight line.
When your signal is not balanced the line will be skewed so you can balance your left and right very fast and super accurate this way. But also see what a compressor does.

Im still learning the meter tool so if I'm wrong feel free to correct me.
 
So this preamp is changing frequency response (not sure what the pain frequencies are), compressing the signal and if I am reading the signal right, somewhat smearing the signal.

That kind of reminds me of what I used to hear when comparing the tape monitor to the incoming mic feed at my buddy's house. The tape never really captured what was coming in. Back then, that was considered a bad thing. I guess times have changed if that's a good thing.
 
Let me put it differently.
It sounds better for my ears ;)
Less harsh and more tied together.
Its subtle but clear.
 
In the images what you have is a signal that has width. In most cases this is where there are phases difference between the channels. If you feed pink noise, more audio appropriate than white noise into the system, what you are seeing is usually distortion that is different in the two channels. If you use a tone sweep, then differences might be more visible as you watch the trace move. With a noise source the distortion products changing give the width change. To my way of reading it, you’re seeing distortion but hearing it as an improvement. That’s personal choice. Historically, we had studio thinking, and hi fi thinking. One was on a quest for eternal truth, one was all about making things sound better. Then the two sort of flipped, and now appear to have gone back again. One lot spending a fortune removing distortion with one born ever minute products and the other seeking to reintroduce it with legacy products. What a strange world.
 
Not exactly.
I'm adding 2nd harmonics when using a tube.
Which for us is more pleasant than the 3rd from transistors.

Ofcourse you can add it with a plugin and that actually got me to buying a "tube" pre amp to see what happens.

I'm active in home theater and in most audio cases it's a lot of hype, semi science and fake to explode the prices.

For me personally running a mastermix to something that adds 2nd harmonics and shaves of a slight sizzle is not adding distortion. It's finishing a mix.

I remember when we recorded on tape in our studio. The sound i got from that machine is still engraved in my brain somehow and pure digital is great but it always feels a bit "loose" "sterile".

This pre amp was not that expensive and also can double for vocals or guitars but as an experiment it worked and will be used whole mastering from now on. Very subtle but it works.

In the end we all decide what sounds best for us.
In the audio world they try to get as close as possible to the original.

I see it as my photography
The Raw out of the camera is perfect (after color balance) but is never used. We always add some colortinting (unless it's a color accurate job), add some contrast, shadow detail etc.

During the creative process we can use whatever we want. Even distorting an image.

However when the client looks at it it should look the way the creator intended it. That's why monitor calibration is a big thing.

Hope i didnt went too much off topic.
I just think that within the creative process there are "no rules" as long as the end result is what we want to hear.
 
We will have to differ I guess. This is totally fine. As the owner of five reel to reels only one (a PR99) approaches direct to digital. To my ears harmonics are not good and bad at all. After all it’s the differences in second. And third harmonic content that define conical vs cylindrical bore instruments. With synths and even Hammond organs it’s easy to really hear what those harmonics do to a fundamental tone. They change it. Yet there is this audiophile world where introducing harmonic distortion, which for years we measured and tried to reduce, is somehow a benefit or an improvement. It’s a change and not for me a good one!!!
 
If the sound is better it can't be wrong ;)
Just to be clear i don't let the pre amp clip.
It's just running through it.

There are also studios that run everything through a summing mixer for the same kind of effect.

In the end it's a matter of turning the effect on or off and choose what you like right ;)?

I'll do some more testing with it soon.
 
It is to me the same as when the Aphex Aural Exciter suddenly appeared - it sort of perked things up for some recordings. That's why I'm always happy for people to do almost anything to a signal to make it 'better' - it's just that me personally, I don't like it. Too subjective for me. There are people who can hear a gnat fart when they switch from an AKG to a DPA with it's supernatural ability to convert sound into electricity. The same people then mangle the signal to improve it? I have no understanding of how distortion of any kind, can be better in any meaningful way. I accept the fact that some people hear the results as special and an improvement. I hear degradation, or simply artefacts I don't like. I'm probably a very small minority, but putting in some distortion to make a sinewave more 'interesting' makes it no longer a sine wave.
 
I don't think it's really distortion.
But more like using a certain compressor due to it's sound.
As long as you don't clip the pre amp there is no distortion it does compress the signal very slightly and gives it a different character. Same as running of through a summing mixer or console ;)

In essence it does much less that a master compressor. A sonic maximizer is really adding something indeed. I use an Edison on a very low setting in the Final mix. Just go give it a slightly wider image.

I'll try to make a test recording next week.
I think it's much more subtle than you might think.
 
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One lot spending a fortune removing distortion with one born ever minute products and the other seeking to reintroduce it with legacy products. What a strange world.
Brian Eno's "A Year With Swollen Appendages" has been on my to-buy list for ages, because it's the book where he theorizes that anything "weird, ugly, and nasty" about any new medium become cherished and emulated as soon as we figure out how to avoid them. Not making a value judgement one way or another, just noting that this is a great example of what he's talking about.
 
I have found advice on YouTube saying shove your mix buss through a pre-amp with in/out transformers.
I went for the TK Transformer:
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"
I'm adding 2nd harmonics when using a tube.
Which for us is more pleasant than the 3rd from transistors."

Excuse my French but that ^ is largely bollocks. The type of distortion a device produces depends mostly on the circuit configuration rather than the type of active component.

A single ended stage will indeed produce more even harmonics (not just second) than odd but this is true whether it is a valve, transistor or FET. A balanced circuit, e.g the Long Tailed Pair IF very well balanced will tend to cancel out even harmonics. The PI in a push pull valve amp is another example but they are rarely that good at harmonic cancellation unless steps are taken to trim the balance at all frequencies. Such trimming is only seen in hi fi amps of yesteryear.

Where transistors do differ from valves is in their extended HF response and the generally low resistances in their circuits compared to valves, especially Triodes. Thus, distort a transistor and the harmonics extend way past 20kHz. A triode stage will start to droop at 15 to 18kHz. All that supersonic '***t tends to filter back into the audio band. Also, valves have massive headroom, tens of volts. Your wee transistor or op amp is done at 20V pk-pk often much less.

The other bit of "harmonic BS" refers to transformer "saturation" (they rarely do*) Distort a transformer and you get mostly ODD harmonics! (same with tape)

As Rob said, the audio world has gone daft.

*"saturation" occurs when a component, valve, transistor, transformer, is turned on so hard that it ceases to function, it becomes almost a short circuit. Thus a saturated component would virtually shut down the progress of an audio signal and in the case of a valve do it no good at all. But! This is a bit of audio BS "Lore" that we will just have to live with I suppose? Like that other bllx, "rms" watts!

Dave.
 
It's simple for me ;)
Taking out all the technology
Add device = sounds more to my liking
Add device = sounds less

Option 1 : yes
Option 2 : no

For me the recording process is different from the audio/home theater experience.

When i say saturation i mean the track sounds more direct, colored and a bit more aggresive without being harsh. It's all subtle but clear.

With audio i try to keep everything as neutral as possible with acoustic treatments, proper speakers / amps etc. So no compressors, maximers etc.

With recording, if adding a device sounds better or gives me more the feel i have in mind it's all ok.

In the end it's the end result you have to like.
As mentioned I'll try to record a sample next week with and without.
 
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