Pre amp for bus use

  • Thread starter Thread starter FrankD77
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This is my problem.
The track sounds more direct, colored and a bit more aggresive without being harsh. It's all subtle but clear.

I think I know what you are hearing, but some are things I actually don't like, assuming my understanding is the same. I HATE coloured sound - I want it to sound 'real' - not modified. Colour, to me, is a negative - at least in my music. I also have never made a track in my life more aggressive. It's probably linked to your style of music? Maybe that is what makes it so hard for me to understand your needs and desires? I've been producing music for over 50 years now and I have never in my life recorded anything with metal in it's genre title, nor rap, punk and absolutely nothing in drop D tuning or with more than 6 strings (ignoring 12, of course).

I'm realising that my dislike of gizmos that distort, colour or modify is not a technical thing at all, it's a stylistic one? I've been trying to see the subject from the 'how on earth can this be better?' principle, when clearly, I've totally missed the entire point people have been making for years - their needs are for more of what they like, and what they actually like is part of their music, and the bane of mine.
Weird!
 
Out of curiosity how do you approach compression?
A fet sounds different from an optical?

I'm actually surprised by the pretty stiff replies without hearing the results ;)

Don't we all color the sound in recording, mixing and mastering. For example why do I like the reverb of a lexicon more than from a Digitech and sounds the delay from the G major different from the alesis.

For me it's the end result that matters and "coloring" my sound starts by selecting the right guitar, amps, speakers and mic (placement). After that it's a selection of FX, EQ and compression

To be fair. I love my captor X and have some great IRs but i still prefer my cab with a nice mic blend.

Running a track or full mix to a piece of gear that gets you a better result fitting the track is the same i guess. With mastering it's done for ever in a lot of studios as far as I know. Only that's often a lot more expensive gear ;)

When we work on an audio/home theater room I'm a purist and focus mainly on acoustic and a transparant signal chain. When I'm recording music I'm sound scaping ;)

Interesting discussion.
 
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@rob aylestone
Maybe I'm using the wrong terms.
When i say aggressive it's probably the slight compression it adds. It all sound a bit more "direct".

I'll try to record something tomorrow and upload it here.
 
You’re making me think. For a long time I used one preset in Yamaha’ dsp-1. This was a test bed digital reverb based on sampling real spaces. It used a remote long lost and Munich cathedral worked for me for BIG reverb. Later the digital reverbs sort of took over for what I needed. Midiverbs in the main. I could never afford really posh ones and had a great British spring for a while. For the past ten years the reverence plugin within Cubase does all I need. My rack of compressors had o e I quite liked because one knob sort of made it work. A symmetrix from memory but they’re long gone once recording and PA were digital. I’m still stuck on cloud though. I want invisible compression and realistic reverb. Currently the steinberg compression works for me perfectly well. I can squish and the sound doesn’t change. When we had outboard that used optical methods of changing compression I really thought it was faulty before I realised people were using it as an effect. I just can’t get that at all. For years compression for me was either totally missing or really mild. Maybe a bit on bass just to control slaps or pull offs that cut through too much. Occasionally on pop vocals but for me it was a problem fixer not a thing to just use.
 
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@rob aylestone
As you might know beside Home Theater I'm a Photographer.

It feels a but like :
The camera shoots RAW, so just change the color balance to the right one and that's it.
Where I see the RAW file as the start and build the looks/final product from there.

In my work it's not done to deliver a file straight out of the camera, but when I shoot for a newspaper it's almost never allowed to change anything (except correct color balance) in the photos.

So it will also depend on the market.
I love Queen, Vai, Satriani and they all are know to experiment a lot in the studio and live.

Also about the view, where is the border between coloring something or just choosing the gear that gives you the sound you want.
It's impossible to record something without coloring.
The room you record it in, your favorite microphone or position.
As you already mention you like a certain kind of compressor, so you are also in a way choosing what fits your workflow.

I always dreamed about 19" gear when I was "younger" and now that I can buy them for 100-200,00 euros I went on a collecting spree.
The differences just in reverbs is mind boggling.

I never liked the plugins I used, they all had something "weird" in the highs.
Ever since I added a super cheap Lexicon MX300 I'm in reverb heaven.
But I like the Chorus better on the 2101 and the delays on the G-major.

Could I all do it with plugins,.,, of course.
And most people will not hear a difference I guess, it's also what inspires.

And even if you talk to people that are 100% the opposite it's always interesting to hear each others arguments.
Sometimes I think why not sell everything and go the AXE FX way, which I would LOVE to use.
But I would not use it for amp emulations, it will not beat my setup, but effects would be great.
However every time people visit me and hear the old "junk" they all claim it sounds much wider and organic.

My whole rack was cheaper than one Axe FX and it always inspires me to test out new sounds and combinations.
BUT... I don't earn my money with music.
If I would I would be 100% plugin based I think, it's just faster.

I'll try to speed up my test a bit.
I'm free later today so maybe I have some time to do it today.
 
As promised :D

Big disclaimer I'm still heavy in the testing stages, especially with the build in compressor there is a lot of play,
For this track it's on almost the lowest setting. To make it fair, I always use a bit of compression on the master bus so for this test I did the same amount just not from the normal compressor but from the Pre-Amp.

Especially the segment near the end with the wah it's the most obvious what it does.
As mentioned before it's very subtle but for me it just takes the edges off while giving the sound a bit more bite and straight in your face.
But you will have to A/B.
 
I never liked the plugins I used, they all had something "weird" in the highs.
Ever since I added a super cheap Lexicon MX300 I'm in reverb heaven.
But I like the Chorus better on the 2101 and the delays on the G-major.

Could I all do it with plugins,.,, of course.
And most people will not hear a difference I guess, it's also what inspires.
It doesn’t really matter what we use does it? If plugins don’t inspire you and hardware does - then hardware it is- one caveat about the weird highs you hear - plugins (like EQ’s and Compression) are much cleaner than their hardware couterparts - The Lexicon MX300 for example shaves off some mids and starts rolling off the high end about around 10 khz - so when using a Plugin Reverb you would do the same with an EQ HighPass at about 600 hz and LowPass at 10 khz (unless your plugin has an EQ Option - mine do) and if you want a more vintage sound Drop an EQ after the plugin as well Rolling off the top end and slight boosting the low end - likewise on Compression you drop an EQ before to shape the sound (A Tube EQ Plugin for example) - the thing is there are all sorts of subtle touches to hardware that give them a distinct tone - a bunch of plugs in do it right in the box - but some you have to manipulate.
 
Not everything is fixable by eq.
It's also the tail, decay etc.
When i try the different reverbs they are all sounding different. No idea if that's all fixable with plugins or EQ.

In all honesty i was stunned by how much real difference there is in something simple as a delay.

I think it was Dave Friedman in an episode of tone talk explained it very easily.

An IR or modeller can sound great but it's a snapshot and with real analogue gear there is no constant. There is always a slight variation which makes the guitar cut through.

When i play with a modeller i have to agree.
It sounds awesome with the right IRs but when i use the synergy over the ENGL with a real cab and mic it sounds much wider and intense in the mix. And i have much less work to make the guitar stand out.

The problem.... Do you or someone else hears it in the mix.... And in all honesty i don't think so. So it's more for my own inspiration and that they do hear ;)

Just to be clear. I agree with everything i read here.
I strongly believe there is no right or wrong if the end results are what you want. However it's interesting to have the discussion ;)
 
It's simple for me ;)
Taking out all the technology
Add device = sounds more to my liking
Add device = sounds less

Option 1 : yes
Option 2 : no
I generally like to know WHY, but as a basic trouble shooting approach this one isn't half bad. :)
 
knowing why is a never ending quest ;)
I think the snapshot explanation does make sense.

Also why 2 analogue units always have some variance.
 
Hey, I understand the reasoning behind tweaking the sound however it's done. It's fundamentally no different that using a plugin to change EQ or compression, or adding any other effect, except that it's going to add that to EVERYTHING that goes through it. But on the other hand, it's like having some fun toys to play with, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Your photography analogy is good. I remember the days of having multiple filters to screw on the front of a lense. Add stars, soften the edges, polarizers to make that sky a deep blue. I also remember how people would test the basic lenses to make sure they had no distortion, had the highest resolution, proper color rendition. Nobody would buy a lens that had bad pincushion or barrel distortion, spherical aberration, or vignetting. You might apply a vignette after the fact, but you don't want every photo you take to have it.

I think that's why some of us stay away from the "add color" equipment. Make sure you can get as true a signal as possible, then play with it as much as you want. And yes, the type of music will often dictate how much accuracy is needed. I doubt that recording a choir needs saturation and glue as much as it needs clarity.
 
Where you able to listen to my sample ?
I uploaded it yesterday.

Curious to hear what people hear and describe it.
 
It's simple for me ;)
Taking out all the technology
Add device = sounds more to my liking
Add device = sounds less

Option 1 : yes
Option 2 : no

For me the recording process is different from the audio/home theater experience.

When i say saturation i mean the track sounds more direct, colored and a bit more aggresive without being harsh. It's all subtle but clear.

With audio i try to keep everything as neutral as possible with acoustic treatments, proper speakers / amps etc. So no compressors, maximers etc.

With recording, if adding a device sounds better or gives me more the feel i have in mind it's all ok.

In the end it's the end result you have to like.
As mentioned I'll try to record a sample next week with and without.
I agree with you Frank but this audio/recording game is SO filled with BS and wrong assumptions that the tech in me feels duty bound to help the newb cut through some of the snake oil and misused terms, otherwise people might buy stuff based on advertising "speak" when the equipment does not in fact work the way described at all.
A famous jazz musician once said "you have to KNOW the rules before you can BREAK 'em!"

Take that staple of many studios, the valve guitar amp? "All that lovely 2nd harmonic distortion" when in fact for a push pull amp, anything 15W and up, the PI and balanced OP stage by their very nature SUPPRESS even harmonics!
Not that well as I intimated because few guitar amps make much of a job of accurate balancing but they mostly produce more odd harmonics than even. Another myth. No matter how hard you drive it you will not come close to saturating the OP transformer and if you could, the valves would die in short order.

But, like "rms" and "decimate" the word "saturation" has been stolen and its meaning distorted (Ha"p'tish boom!)

Dave.
 
I agree
Besides photography we are active in Home Theater and audio since 1997

I am both ISF and HAA certified and we actually stopped selling cables because of the immense BS and super inflated prices.

What mostly struck me is the unwillingness off the "blind testers" to do a simple test like sitting 20-30cm to the left/right or even let someone else in the room move. They all want to know why they hear a difference but are not open for the real deal, fatigue, alcohol, humidity that builds up, nodes/anti nodes by changing things in the room.

As soon as people start with "my wife did not know but she immediately...." Sure by switching one cable. Professional studios use XLR and don't spend 10k on a power cable so why should you....

With the calibrations i have to be secure to 0.001
With photography and music it's the creative part. However i agree with you 100% i want to know what's going on. Only then can you use it and build from it. It still bafles me how many pro photographers have for example no idea about color management. It's as basic as with music tuning your guitar. I've been teaching for over two decades and while technology gets easier the knowledge seems to run downhill it's worrying.

On amps you are right. On most levels a tube amp doesn't work right and a solid state or modeler could be better. I'm running the synergy into a ENGL 920/100 with a vintage blackback cab and a SE100 power soak, if you push the ENGL the sound is insane.

But when you stay within the normal levels without the se100 (your ears would bleed) i would probably not hear a difference between the 8008 valvestate and the ENGL, but push them and the 8008 doesn't change and the ENGL comes to live.
 
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Where you able to listen to my sample ?
I uploaded it yesterday.

Curious to hear what people hear and describe it.
I had downloaded it last night, but didn't have anything but my laptop to listen on, so I didn't bother with trying to do any critical listening.

This morning, I'm on my other computer and have speakers and headphones. There's a bit of difference, it sounds a bit louder in spots. Not a huge difference. Maybe raspy sounding, although the guitar has already got a lot of drive. When I do comparisons I like to throw them in Reaper, so I can switch seamlessly between them. Well, I missed the CTRL button on one switch which engaged both tracks and WHOA!!! The sound dropped a bunch, and it sounded distorted in spots. So I flipped the phase button on one channel, and BAM!!! It got really loud!

Turns out your box is inverting the phase. I zoomed in to confirm and while I was looking at it, I noticed that there were a couple of spots where it seems the preamp is chopping off wave forms. I can't tell for sure, but it might even be making things a bit offset. Maybe it's the geek in me, it makes me wonder what the heck is going on. Here are the two spots I first noticed. I didn't go deeper and see if there was a pattern. But I'm guessing that those types of changes would be audible. Whether it would be an improvement is subjective.

In any case, it's doing something!

Attitude.webp
 
Interesting
Anyone knows why that happens ?

It's indeed a bit more "rough" personally i like it more.
 
I don't know what's in the circuit, but I split the tracks into L and R, and inverted the polarity of the Preamp modified, and its definitely asymmetrical clipping. That's a fundamental difference between a TubeScreamer vs the SD1. TS is sysmetrical, SD is asymmetrical. You can see the clipping point when you compare the same channel. Perhaps Dave can comment on if this is due to diode clipping vs tube clipping.

clip level.webp
 
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I'd never heard of the Freidman guy, but he's doing OK and his fixes and own designs are doing pretty well. All the things though in the dozens of videos just show me the same thing, over and over again. Different tones. By mistake or design, I have no idea and I could not say any were better or worse. Depends on the song. They help or hinder. Whenever you have amps or even processors that work on the positive and the negative going aspects of a signal - some unbalance happens. Worse with harmonically rich sounds. They sound different and look different. A mangled sine wave would be considered bad, but with guitars, weird distortion is character building. With modern electronics, you have virtually infinite ways to process a signal. That's great. Choose what floats your boat. However - what they do is so complex, you cannot see how what you hear happened, and that generates magic.

Reverbs for me are correct and appropriate or horribly wrong. So few are bad, but the good ones are usually realistic, or totally manufactured. Like spring reverb recreations. They rarely sound like the real thing. Often just too good. People rave over the Abbey Road reverb rooms and the captures and simulations of it, when in reality, it's a hard walled randomly reverberant space that fitted the music. It was NOT nice sounding, it just had a character. I do lots of work in churches and the vast majority are absolutely not nice in terms of what they do to the sound. I have been in dead rehearsal rooms and heard players and singers who have instruments and voices that are stunning, and you really know a good violin when you hear one. Then you do the recording and it turns to a mush - a sort of bad wall of sound. Definition wrecked. Clarity gone. Diction flattened and the words missing. First impression is a huge, wonderful big sound, that on inspection is just a mess. Even worse, we have heated discussion about the move of two mics to a few cm apart and then argue about if it is ORTF. Lately, classical folk have started arguing about Decca Trees, when people replicate them without U49's and use 87's or 414s on omni. All the science, all the absolute facts, yet, on really close listening - you can't tell. If the recordings they put up were described as Decca Tree, they could just as well have been an X/Y pair. The photos usually prove it. A bunch of people playing or singing. You can see the two big fellas singing the low parts, or you can see there is a single lady playing the flute. You see where they are, and then in the headphones or speakers you hear what you cannot see! I've taken my headphones off sometimes and checked the L and R are on the correct ears and they are, but it's reversed. I've watched a video where a person in the audience drops something on the floor and you hear it on the wrong side. The singers were correct - spread L to R, but the audience idiot was on the wrong side. Then you realise that's a Blumlein stereo pair, so audience left and right is reversed. It's a great technique but not real. I have a Line 6 variax - if I dial on pitch shifts on certain strings, I of course hear it. That clear indication tweaking has taken place - until I re-open old recordings and what was so obvious 15 years ago, suddenly is just a guitar.

I love Dave Rat's videos where he demonstrates our often solid opinions on sound are shaky. Like the impact of cable length - when he used every length of mic cable in his huge warehouse to see what would happen. The result was pointless - I can't remember how far he went, might have been a mile? One of his favourite tricks is polarity reversal cancelling. Take a signal, split it, process one leg and then combine back. Revealing what the mixer or other device had actually done, and it is rarely wow. it's just tiny things unnoticable in a mix.

We have people on social media with speakers costing the price of a house, asking where they should put them. They bought them, plugged them in and were not blown away, so it must be a mistake, or a room fault. The audio world is becoming very, very weird.

I should say that I am a partner in a heritage lighting museum, and we are discovering now that many of the historic, famous, often collected items are actually pretty poor. We did a video recently about a great piece of kit from the 70s. What people did not know was that the main lighting came from LED, very new kit, because the old stuff just wasn't quite up to it - and while it features visually in the images, what came out of them was unpredictable. We had 8 versions of one piece of kit - consider it like the Yamaha NS10, in lighting form. We could not make even 2 of them match. To the eye, they did. The camera however revealed hot spots, strange patches, different edges to the beams. Watching the amp videos, it's clear that the same thing applies to audio products that use components that age. Quickly, like tubes or long term, like capacitors.

No point really to this post, but just things that keep floating around my brain whenever we talk of this kind of subjective stuff.
 
Similar approach to mine.

In the creative process there is no "wrong"
In the reproduction process it should be as clean as possible.
 
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