cominginsecond
Decentralized Media Mogul
One thing that just occured to me: there's no way to get pro sounding results without a decent sounding room. If you don't already have that, $6500 is not enough. Add another $20,000, at least, to the total.
Please come here if you have good advice on what i should buy...
K
Kelby
New member
Blue Bear noted:
There is the HD24 24-track digital recorder... this is simply 24-tracks of hard-disk recorder -- no mixer, no pres nothing but recording... it has 2 hard-disk bays, and NO CD-burner.
________________________
Doh!
Ignore that entire post of mine. Don't know what the heck I was thinking about. Sorry.
There is the HD24 24-track digital recorder... this is simply 24-tracks of hard-disk recorder -- no mixer, no pres nothing but recording... it has 2 hard-disk bays, and NO CD-burner.
________________________
Doh!
Ignore that entire post of mine. Don't know what the heck I was thinking about. Sorry.
Blue Bear Sound
New member
No worries... most of what you posted was allright -- just some of the gear details were off!Kelby said:
K
Kendog
New member
I can't believe anybody is still willing to answer this guy (Tyler). Every time he doesn't get the precise answer he thinks he already knows, without an ounce of digression to a related topic, he pulls out the f-bombs and starts another insulting tirade.
Reminds me quite strongly of a certain former denizen of the board with a name something like "feces-trousers."
I'm outta this one.
Ken Rutkowski
www.OuterLimitRecordingStudio.com
Reminds me quite strongly of a certain former denizen of the board with a name something like "feces-trousers."
I'm outta this one.
Ken Rutkowski
www.OuterLimitRecordingStudio.com
cominginsecond
Decentralized Media Mogul
I've looked back at all his posts, and he hasn't used a single "f-bomb". I just think the kid's frustrated because, for the first two pages of posts everyone was either telling him to give up, or get a cassette four track. What a joke! As I've shown above his max budget is very realistic for getting a professional sound. I definitely think that among certain people on this board there is a tendency to want to shoot newbies down before they even get started.
K
Kendog
New member
I apologize for the f-bomb comment, but his attitude surely is not welcoming to those giving different advice, though pertinent, from what he wants.
Ken Rutkowski
www.OuterLimitRecordingStudio.com
Ken Rutkowski
www.OuterLimitRecordingStudio.com
TexRoadkill
Audio Bum
cominginsecond said:
That is what the marketing folks at prosumer level gear companies would have you believe. You will have a very decent demo studio but you will not be competing with any serious studio. A great album could be made with that equipment but it's merits would have to ride completely on the musicianship and creativity. Extreme quality would not be it's strong point.
Besides that just about any serious home recorder can afford that setup. If they can have the same setup as you then why would they pay to go to a studio that has the same equipment as their keyboard player or brother in law.
QUOTE]As far as the ethics of charging $25 for inexperienced engineering, I'll have to concur with Blue Bear. I don't think that that price point is appropriate at all. If you learn how to use this stuff, and your songs start approaching the level of quality of Blue Bear or Sonusman, $25-$40/hr is fine. Until then, I don't think it would be right to charge more than $12-$15/hr. [/QUOTE]
It's not a matter of ethics. If you can find some sucker willing to pay a teenager that kind of money than more power to you. Any smart consumer will look at the options and see that the 'value' of recording at prosumer studio is not all that great.
I realize you have it all figured out with your extensive church AV experience but if you really came here for advice you should do more listening and less talking. Instead of arguing about it your quest should be "What kind of studio would I need to charge $25 an hour?"
Michael Jones
New member
You beat me to it Tex. That's pretty much the bottom line there.
V
Vurt
New member
cominginsecond said:
You might not think that if you consider the context. Tyler isn't a a typical newbie asking what gear to buy with X amount of $$ so that he can start recording his band. Recommending gear is fun - everyone likes to do it, but not when the recommendations will be used unwisely. Anyone pursuing any business venture should have knowledge, experience, and a solid plan, don't you agree?
cominginsecond
Decentralized Media Mogul
Ok, so are you saying that Blue Bear is not a professional, because this is the same grade of equipment that he uses. In fact, in my setup, both the main LD microphone and the preamp are superior to Blue Bear's setup. What i'm wondering is if someone an point to a glaring hole in the equipment list above that would prevent me from attain a perfectly acceptable professional sound. The lack of $1000 per channel A/D converters? The lack of an ELAM 251? Enlighten me.
Blue Bear Sound
New member
Hmmm... where do you get that? How can you compare the $6000 list you posted to a $75,000 commercial project-studio's gear list and consider them equitable???!?!cominginsecond said:
Maybe I should have talked to you first and I would have saved myself some initial capitol outlay......!!!!!!
cominginsecond
Decentralized Media Mogul
Of course I agree, and, as I've stated above, I don't feel it's appropriate for him to charge $25/hr. However, just because the guy's not thinking this through completely doesn't mean he should be told to give up! The only information he requested from us is whether he can build a great studio for $6500. I'm not going to stand in judgement on the guy. I know nothing about him.
cominginsecond
Decentralized Media Mogul
Since when do you measure sound quality in dollars? My point was that the signal path of Rode NTK to Avalon VT737 is superior to any signal path that I see listed on your site. My post stated that my described setup used the same grade of equipment that you use, not that it had as much equipment as you have. Where it really counts (mic and mic pre) my described setup has a slight edge over the equipment listed on your site.
R
Richard Monroe
Well-known member
You know, I've been following this thread for a while, and I'm thinking the horse is pretty well dead. A recap might be useful at this point. First a guy with a year of experience and limited gear overstates his case and provides incomplete info. Yep, he's got to have "professional quality" with an operational budget of $1500 (maybe $6500). Of course, he is shot down in flames by people who are pros, people who want to be pros, and people who really don't want to be pros, because they have a good idea what's involved.
Then, the original poster gets his back up a little, because he doesn't realize how far he's overstated his case, or that his information was incomplete, and feels he's being patronized and that the resposes are condescending. Meanwhile, several posters put up valid gear lists compatible with the stated budget and point out that good sound quality can be achieved at the project studio level, with limitations on number of tracks and processing capability.
The debate then degenerates into a semantic dispute over what "professional level" recording is, and whether such a definition should be based on versatility and ethical considerations, or on a market-based supply and demand model.
Credible arguments are made that high quality tracks can be generated on a limited budget, and that such efforts will most likely fail in competition at the commercial level.
Before I unsubscribe from this thread, which I believe no longer addresses Tyler's needs, I will state my thoughts on the major issues. Tyler, when you throw around words like "professional", you raise the hackles of "professionals", who have spent $50,000 or much more to achieve the finest results they can, and offer the best services they can to their clients. They may legitimately believe that at the stated price point of $25/hr, the limited services you can provide with your small budget and experience can not compete with their service or others like them. They may be concerned that you are setting yourself up for failure, or that the services you would offer would be a bad buy, or both, and their concerns are warranted on both counts.
I believe that some very good tracks indeed can be achieved at your price point, but you have to be aware of the limitations imposed both by lack of gear and expertise. You need to build your project studio as a learning tool, so that when you have the budget to go pro (you don't), you may have the expertise to do it well, and maybe, just maybe, succeed. Or, as I have, you build the studio to record a very specific set of tracks with very specific parameters, and accept that you can do better by doing less. My budget is 5 times your best case scenario, and I wouldn't even dream of trying to call it a commercial studio. Nonetheless, most of my studio is being paid for by a grant from the National Endowment for the Arts, to record an ancient Hellenic text, just one spoken voice, and I think I can manage "professional quality" results for 1 spoken track. Does that make it a "professional" studio- No.
Then I will record my first album, which will be OK, because I have great staff, professional engineering expertise (not me), adequate gear, and all remixing, processing, mastering, normalization, sequencing, and production will be outsourced. In effect, what you have said is- "I want to race in the Indianapolis 500. I've got a budget of $6500, and I'm not really a beginner, because I've been driving for a year." The people who are trying to help you are pointing out that you can buy a pretty good used stock car for $6500, and that going to a race driving school or doing a little autocross might help you develop the right skills. So go ahead and build a pro studio for $6500, but I don't think I'll be calling you for the remixing contract. Or build a modest project studio and spend a few years becoming an engineer. If what you want is gear reviews, you'll find plenty of that on the other forums of this board. Good luck, Tyler. When you ask a question that has an answer, we'll be there for you.-Richie
Then, the original poster gets his back up a little, because he doesn't realize how far he's overstated his case, or that his information was incomplete, and feels he's being patronized and that the resposes are condescending. Meanwhile, several posters put up valid gear lists compatible with the stated budget and point out that good sound quality can be achieved at the project studio level, with limitations on number of tracks and processing capability.
The debate then degenerates into a semantic dispute over what "professional level" recording is, and whether such a definition should be based on versatility and ethical considerations, or on a market-based supply and demand model.
Credible arguments are made that high quality tracks can be generated on a limited budget, and that such efforts will most likely fail in competition at the commercial level.
Before I unsubscribe from this thread, which I believe no longer addresses Tyler's needs, I will state my thoughts on the major issues. Tyler, when you throw around words like "professional", you raise the hackles of "professionals", who have spent $50,000 or much more to achieve the finest results they can, and offer the best services they can to their clients. They may legitimately believe that at the stated price point of $25/hr, the limited services you can provide with your small budget and experience can not compete with their service or others like them. They may be concerned that you are setting yourself up for failure, or that the services you would offer would be a bad buy, or both, and their concerns are warranted on both counts.
I believe that some very good tracks indeed can be achieved at your price point, but you have to be aware of the limitations imposed both by lack of gear and expertise. You need to build your project studio as a learning tool, so that when you have the budget to go pro (you don't), you may have the expertise to do it well, and maybe, just maybe, succeed. Or, as I have, you build the studio to record a very specific set of tracks with very specific parameters, and accept that you can do better by doing less. My budget is 5 times your best case scenario, and I wouldn't even dream of trying to call it a commercial studio. Nonetheless, most of my studio is being paid for by a grant from the National Endowment for the Arts, to record an ancient Hellenic text, just one spoken voice, and I think I can manage "professional quality" results for 1 spoken track. Does that make it a "professional" studio- No.
Then I will record my first album, which will be OK, because I have great staff, professional engineering expertise (not me), adequate gear, and all remixing, processing, mastering, normalization, sequencing, and production will be outsourced. In effect, what you have said is- "I want to race in the Indianapolis 500. I've got a budget of $6500, and I'm not really a beginner, because I've been driving for a year." The people who are trying to help you are pointing out that you can buy a pretty good used stock car for $6500, and that going to a race driving school or doing a little autocross might help you develop the right skills. So go ahead and build a pro studio for $6500, but I don't think I'll be calling you for the remixing contract. Or build a modest project studio and spend a few years becoming an engineer. If what you want is gear reviews, you'll find plenty of that on the other forums of this board. Good luck, Tyler. When you ask a question that has an answer, we'll be there for you.-Richie
Blue Bear Sound
New member
First off, I don't consider the Rode NTK to be anything exceptional -- I have far better mics in my library, the Avalon is a high-quality unit.... on the other hand, you have no clue as to what mods I may have done to the gear I do have.... as well, for all I know you've connected your mic and Avalon with Hosa cable, while my rig is based on Canare, Belden, and Mogami!cominginsecond said:
So you see, it's not the dollar value I'm talking about at all.... I'm simply saying you don't have enough information about the specifics of my rig to make any of the sort of grand generalizations as to its quality the way you have!
Cheers!
cominginsecond
Decentralized Media Mogul
I see your point. I should have made my argument in a better way.
Just to get some additional discussion flowing, since everyone's talking about achieving "professional" results, how would you guys define "professional results"?
(I will take a stab at this one tonight when my four month old daughter is sleeping. My avatar is a picture of here about ten hours after she was born. Isn't that kute?)
Michael Jones
New member
comminginsecond:
you've put together a respectable system for $6500, but a reality chjeck is definately in order.
You want to compare things like this:
to this:
and this:
to this:
and this:
to this:
Do nothing about these:
and tell me that you can get quality like this:
you've put together a respectable system for $6500, but a reality chjeck is definately in order.
You want to compare things like this:
to this:
and this:
to this:
and this:
to this:
Do nothing about these:
and tell me that you can get quality like this:
R
riffing
New member
BTW, I do have Pro Tools LE/Digi001 and have been using it for almost two years now. I do recommend it for Tyler and other beginners - as long as it's within your budget.
Yes, $25/hr does seem high to me, too, but I didn't dwell on it much. There are too many variables that account for appropriate pricing. IMO, there weren't enough details given (not that I'd want it anyway) to conclude for sure that $25/hr is too much. Like I said in my previous post, it's all about supply and demand. What if he lives in an area where there are a lot of young bands starting and wanting to record a demo and the nearest studio is 5 hours away and no one else even has a PortaStudio. $25/hr may not sound too expensive, even with an unproven engineer. And as I posted before, if he keeps getting repeat customers, then his pricing is appropriate. Heck, I've paid $5 for a pack of cigarettes in a club I know only costs < $3 at 7-11. Many people will pay for convenience - I know I do.
Tyler, go and do it for fun. If you find you do it well, even better. If you want to do it professionally as with many things requiring skill, it'll take a lot of years. You may have done many things with one year on your digital recorder, but one year does not make you a pro. Do you play a musical instrument? How many years did you play it before you thought you were proficient in it? Personally, I played guitar for 10 years before I started thinking I was getting proficient in it. It doesn't mean I didn't have fun during the first ten years, though. It also doesn't mean I've mastered the instrument either, 15 years later.
Richard Monroe, I applaud you. Spot on.
Yes, $25/hr does seem high to me, too, but I didn't dwell on it much. There are too many variables that account for appropriate pricing. IMO, there weren't enough details given (not that I'd want it anyway) to conclude for sure that $25/hr is too much. Like I said in my previous post, it's all about supply and demand. What if he lives in an area where there are a lot of young bands starting and wanting to record a demo and the nearest studio is 5 hours away and no one else even has a PortaStudio. $25/hr may not sound too expensive, even with an unproven engineer. And as I posted before, if he keeps getting repeat customers, then his pricing is appropriate. Heck, I've paid $5 for a pack of cigarettes in a club I know only costs < $3 at 7-11. Many people will pay for convenience - I know I do.
Tyler, go and do it for fun. If you find you do it well, even better. If you want to do it professionally as with many things requiring skill, it'll take a lot of years. You may have done many things with one year on your digital recorder, but one year does not make you a pro. Do you play a musical instrument? How many years did you play it before you thought you were proficient in it? Personally, I played guitar for 10 years before I started thinking I was getting proficient in it. It doesn't mean I didn't have fun during the first ten years, though. It also doesn't mean I've mastered the instrument either, 15 years later.
Richard Monroe, I applaud you. Spot on.
cominginsecond
Decentralized Media Mogul
Michael,
Is there any reason not to compare those things? Instead of posting pictures to try and prove your point, why not post sound clips? I'm not saying a Rode NTK is just as good as a Neumann. What I am saying is that you can use both to achieve "professional" results. In addition, your last comment seems to suggest that I think good, experienced ears don't matter. I'd like you to show me where I said that.
The fact is, a good engineer can get radio-ready mixes in both the $6500 set up I described and in a multi-million dollar studio. A bad engineer cannot get a radio-ready mix from either. There is nothing in the setup I described that would prevent you from getting a brilliant mix (assuming you wire it all up with quality cable). It may be a little easier to get a brilliant mix in the million dollar studio, but it does not negate the possibilities of the $6500 studio. The prevailing sentiment on this message board that I disagree with is that it is impossible to get a "professional" sound for less that 100 grand.
Is there any reason not to compare those things? Instead of posting pictures to try and prove your point, why not post sound clips? I'm not saying a Rode NTK is just as good as a Neumann. What I am saying is that you can use both to achieve "professional" results. In addition, your last comment seems to suggest that I think good, experienced ears don't matter. I'd like you to show me where I said that.
The fact is, a good engineer can get radio-ready mixes in both the $6500 set up I described and in a multi-million dollar studio. A bad engineer cannot get a radio-ready mix from either. There is nothing in the setup I described that would prevent you from getting a brilliant mix (assuming you wire it all up with quality cable). It may be a little easier to get a brilliant mix in the million dollar studio, but it does not negate the possibilities of the $6500 studio. The prevailing sentiment on this message board that I disagree with is that it is impossible to get a "professional" sound for less that 100 grand.
ChuckU
New member
Cominginsecond,
Your $6500 list is not far off from what I've put together myself in the way of gear. Almost looks like you went thru my stuff.
In addition, I agree with your comments about a good engineer making great sounding recordings on such a setup.
I've mentioned this before on the BBS, but I'm pretty well-acquainted with someone who runs a very busy full-time studio with full-blown Pro-Tools TDM, 24-track 2" tape, top notch mics, pres, processors, the whole nine yards. And I said to him, "You take my rig and I'll take yours, and it'll be a long time before my recordings sound as good as yours, because I believe it's the engineer first & foremost."
I further submitted that if he did the same project on my gear and on his that he could get it to sound at least 80% as good on mine as on his. He agreed, but added, "We spend thousands on that extra 20% because our client base expects it and because our competitors do, too. You're always looking for that edge."
Another pro told me (and I'm paraphrasing here) after I told him I couldn't see the sense in spending $1000 per channel on mic pres when my Mackies sound fine to me, "Your ears will tell you when it's time to upgrade." Good advice I think, and I would pass that on to Tyler, too.
Your $6500 list is not far off from what I've put together myself in the way of gear. Almost looks like you went thru my stuff.
In addition, I agree with your comments about a good engineer making great sounding recordings on such a setup.
I've mentioned this before on the BBS, but I'm pretty well-acquainted with someone who runs a very busy full-time studio with full-blown Pro-Tools TDM, 24-track 2" tape, top notch mics, pres, processors, the whole nine yards. And I said to him, "You take my rig and I'll take yours, and it'll be a long time before my recordings sound as good as yours, because I believe it's the engineer first & foremost."
I further submitted that if he did the same project on my gear and on his that he could get it to sound at least 80% as good on mine as on his. He agreed, but added, "We spend thousands on that extra 20% because our client base expects it and because our competitors do, too. You're always looking for that edge."
Another pro told me (and I'm paraphrasing here) after I told him I couldn't see the sense in spending $1000 per channel on mic pres when my Mackies sound fine to me, "Your ears will tell you when it's time to upgrade." Good advice I think, and I would pass that on to Tyler, too.
