My singing vocals don't sound good. Advice?

[rob aylestone]

I just gave the file a listen - like the others, the file reveals quite a bit, and your voice is actually fine. If you really want an ex-teacher comment, looking at the real detail, trying to find a problem - they're very minor. I can sing, but am not a singer. The tone of my voice is bland, and while fine for BVs, I am NOT a lead singer or front man. Your voice has qualities I don't have. I've a fair bit of experience of show type singers though. There are a couple of comments, and theyre not really about your voice, but what you do with it. Have a listen to your version and pick a couple of well known singers to compare things with. First comment - NEWS. Most Big Band singers change their pronounciation to create almost two syllables - ne-ous not a single consonant news. The correct one requires a 'kiss' stylepucker to the lip that starts just after the first 'n'. Many people actually pronouce news this way in speech, but most don't. For singing, you need to fix that. It's a singing thing that amateurs, strangers and even non-musical people will zoom in on. Seems tiny, but it's one of those things you need to be careful of.

The other thing is you sang it with no track - perfectly fine - but did you notice you also changed key and managed at one point to be between the notes on the piano keyboard, sort of a half sharp or flat? It didn't matter for the clip, but would be something to keep an ear on if you didn't notice? In short - very little to even think about. If you want to sing this kind of stuff, your voice is well worth getting a proper singing teacher to give you a whirl - they'll teach you about breathing, and supporting your voice so you don't strain it. There is a decent voice inside you that a teacher could develop for you, because you can sing!

That genre of music is also from the period where singers started to really 'use' microphones. Your room is a bit small and boxy, so you need to find the best distance from the mic - which might well be closer in than you are using currently. This will increase the warmth and clarity - and make pop shields and control of the distance moe important. The proximity effect bass increase means really good headphones are needed so you can work the microphone effectively. Now we know you can sing, how about another clip with the back tracks you are using so we can see how your voice fits in there? If you do this, you will get from us suggestions about EQ changes, maybe compression and almost certainly suitable reverbs?

Rich's comment about the bass is important - crooners, which I suspect sums you up, need to control the bass - so headphones that are truthful down there are really vital (or of course, real speakers that sound good, in a good room - which you might find more tricky?

Don't worry about your voice - if it was crap, we'd have told you (nicely).

 

[BeGrody]

What I am trying to say is practice, train, get lessons if you need to. But a load of gear will not make you better. Just a guitar or piano with you singing is the best way.

I agree with Smithers, Don’t go looking for gear. Make the most of what you have. Experiment with the mic placement, positioning of yourself in relation to it, and so forth. Try out the SM57 in parallel with the Blue, and blend them to taste. Try recording in the bathtub. Etc. It just takes time and persistence

 

[rob aylestone]

I'd bet that 57 could be made to sound quite nice. A heavy duty foam windscreen and close it would probably suit your voice.

 

[Chelonian]

I listened to your sample. Well done for posting it.

Thoughts:

1 Just about everyone hates the sound of their own voice. That's just something you have to live with and get used to.

2 However, I hear nothing wrong with your voice itself, and nor with the raw recording of it.

3 But, I can hear the sound of the room influencing it and giving it a kind of boxy sound. You could try a larger room.

Thanks for the response. In my house the larger rooms also have really obvious echo when I clap (plus it's not really convenient to record there). I might be able to try the basement, but it's cold and unpleasant. I think I'm relegated to this 10'x10' room for now until I someday move elsewhere.

How much do you think this boxy sound will matter in various types of music?

4 And it is very dry. So if you are going to sing along to a highly processed karaoke track, it will sound a bit weird. That's when you will need to consider further processing, such as adding erverb.

Yes, I plan on doing that and have been already experimenting with it some (though I don't have good judgment about it yet). I just wanted to get a raw recording posted on here so people could try to hear the effect of this room on the recording.

Thanks!

 

[Chelonian]

After you convert to freeze/stem. brickwall limit everything. The brickwall effect has a compression type that will allow it to sound similar on all play back devices.

Take the stem and ram it into the limiter with gain. Push your voice against the brickwall.

Thanks, but I have no idea what this means. Can you (or someone here) define:

- freeze
- stem
- brickwall
- limit (I think I know what this is--cuts off amplitudes above a certain value?)
- "ram it into the limiter with gain" / "push you voice against the brickwall" ???

Thanks!

 

[Chelonian]

Gecko is right on point here. Listening on headphones, you can really hear the hollow sound of the room, especially in the second part of the take. Your close in vocal is much better sounding, although I can hear some of the room in the sample.

Interesting, in that I had been thinking that the close in vocal was worse in that it sounded muddier to me, more like a 1970s family tape recorder. (I also realize I could have and maybe should have recorded it with the the focus button on my mic pushed in and that would have given it more treble).

If you look at the waveforms of the hand claps, you can see the short but prominent echos. A desirable reverb will have a much longer, but even decay. This gives you two choices, either use a much bigger room with treatment to even out the reflections, or a very dry, damped signal and introducing reverb to the track. The room will have a significant effect on the sound, compare the reverberation of a theater to that of a gymnasium. Both big, but tremendous difference in the sound.

Looks like for now I am pretty much relegated to this 10'x'10' cube of a room. I could maybe go down into the large basement but only now and then as it's cold/nasty down there. Or I could take my laptop/mic to some place outside my house on occasion, though I have no idea where that could be.

The second approach is much easier to achieve, especially if you are working in a set home environment. You can dampen sound fairly easily by hanging things like moving blankets. For simple vocals like you are doing, you aren't going to have to worry about bass traps, etc. You don't have much in the low registers.

Any tips/videos for these type of blankets and how to hang them? I'm not sure what to imagine--like nails into the walls and the blankets hang on those?

Plus, stay close to the mic. Most of my vocals are withing about 6 inches of the mic with a pop filter.

My only concern with staying close to the mic is for when I sing louder. In a song with dynamics (quiet and loud), I could I guess just turn the gain down for the loud passages and sing them separately.

Here is your first section with three reverbs, the first is an impulse response of a plate reverb, the second is a IR of a Vienna hall with a longer decay, the third is an IR of a medium tiled room with a much shorter decay. All are at the same level. You should be able to hear how it affects your voice. Note that this is on top of the short slap echo you already have, so it's not ideal. You try to match the reverberation to the rest of the track you are singing with.

Those sound like good reverb effects to me. I have been playing around with Audacity and downloaded "realtime effects" from MeldaProduction and it can sound OK but it's a work in progress. I think I need to bite the bullet and learn Reaper, which I have on my computer but don't know how to use at all, because Audacity is surprisingly buggy/crashy on my Win10 computer.

Thank you so much for your help!

 

[Chelonian]

BTW, regarding the cheap Tascam 200 headphones that were mentioned earlier in this thread: I ordered a pair just to see what they sounded like. They are awful, all bass, nothing that you could use to judge a mix. I have cheap Sony earbuds that sound 100 times better. Don't even consider them.

Yes, I remember you writing your take on those when you bought them. Wow, hard to believe they are so bad! I wound up buying Sennheiser HD206 headphones for now, for about $30. I didn't feel I could justify the leap to the good ones you have for about $70 until I can prove to myself I'm really going to get more serious about music recording. But yes, these Sennheisers are a lot better than the $7 Panasonic cheapo headphones I had, which had almost no bass at all.

 

[Chelonian]

I agree with Smithers, Don’t go looking for gear. Make the most of what you have. Experiment with the mic placement, positioning of yourself in relation to it, and so forth. Try out the SM57 in parallel with the Blue, and blend them to taste. Try recording in the bathtub. Etc. It just takes time and persistence

That's an interesting idea about the SM57 in parallel. I will play around with it.

My main concern was the room being awful to record in, as I had a friend advise me that bad rooms basically dominate recordings. I hope that isn't true for the sort of stuff I want to record. Didn't Bon Iver record a well loved album in a cabin up in the wilderness?

 

[Chelonian]

I just gave the file a listen - like the others, the file reveals quite a bit, and your voice is actually fine. If you really want an ex-teacher comment, looking at the real detail, trying to find a problem - they're very minor. I can sing, but am not a singer. The tone of my voice is bland, and while fine for BVs, I am NOT a lead singer or front man. Your voice has qualities I don't have. I've a fair bit of experience of show type singers though. There are a couple of comments, and theyre not really about your voice, but what you do with it. Have a listen to your version and pick a couple of well known singers to compare things with. First comment - NEWS. Most Big Band singers change their pronounciation to create almost two syllables - ne-ous not a single consonant news. The correct one requires a 'kiss' stylepucker to the lip that starts just after the first 'n'. Many people actually pronouce news this way in speech, but most don't. For singing, you need to fix that. It's a singing thing that amateurs, strangers and even non-musical people will zoom in on. Seems tiny, but it's one of those things you need to be careful of.

In addition to critique of the room sound I'm dealing with, I'm definitely happy to get singing critique! So, thank you.

And excellent point about "news"! I tried it now with the pucker and yes, it does help! I've been thinking that what I need to do with every song is work out all of these little points well ahead of time so that I'm not halfway guessing these things when I sing the pieces.

The other thing is you sang it with no track - perfectly fine - but did you notice you also changed key and managed at one point to be between the notes on the piano keyboard, sort of a half sharp or flat? It didn't matter for the clip, but would be something to keep an ear on if you didn't notice?

Yes, I did notice that. I just kind of dashed this off and didn't bother to make it sound musically right on as I was mainly just trying to get "data" to the forum about how bad/boxy my room sound was...though I know there are singers who wouldn't be able to sing anything unmusical like that (I tend to think a legend like Sarah Vaughan didn't know what it was even like to sing the wrong note!).

My skills need improving for sure. I almost never sing all year and so I really need to get my brain in "better shape" for singing. That's why I wish I had a dedicated space in which I could sing at least an hour a day without anyone hearing me, etc.

In short - very little to even think about. If you want to sing this kind of stuff, your voice is well worth getting a proper singing teacher to give you a whirl - they'll teach you about breathing, and supporting your voice so you don't strain it. There is a decent voice inside you that a teacher could develop for you, because you can sing!

It has occurred to me to get a teacher, yes. And thank you for the encouragement!

That genre of music is also from the period where singers started to really 'use' microphones. Your room is a bit small and boxy, so you need to find the best distance from the mic - which might well be closer in than you are using currently. This will increase the warmth and clarity - and make pop shields and control of the distance more important. T

Yes, someone else here suggested I stay closer to the mic. That sounds like a winner of an idea. This is why this forum can be so helpful.

the proximity effect bass increase means really good headphones are needed so you can work the microphone effectively.

I do have Sennheiser HD-206 headphones now, so that's a giant improvement over the $7 Panasonic ones I reported in the start of this thread.

Now we know you can sing, how about another clip with the back tracks you are using so we can see how your voice fits in there? If you do this, you will get from us suggestions about EQ changes, maybe compression and almost certainly suitable reverbs?

I will look into that. As far as using karaoke tracks, I don't have the right to use them (I don't know if a 20 second sample for these purposes would be fair use or not). I could maybe record something of my own with my own instruments, though.

Rich's comment about the bass is important - crooners, which I suspect sums you up, need to control the bass - so headphones that are truthful down there are really vital (or of course, real speakers that sound good, in a good room - which you might find more tricky?

I'd love to have studio monitors but this room is probably going to make things sound kind of like garbage anyway, plus they are even more expensive than the $70 headphones mentioned above. I think rationally they should be more of a "someday" purchase.

Don't worry about your voice - if it was crap, we'd have told you (nicely).

Ha, good to know!

And I'll just mention that I sang this crooner style just as a kind of off-the-top-of-my-head sample. I almost sang the alphabet song because I just wanted to demo the room sound. I am actually more interested in rock as well as doing singing impersonations of rock/pop singers as a kind of challenge, so I'm a little all over the place with what I'd like to try to do.

Thanks again so much!

 

[Chelonian]

I'd bet that 57 could be made to sound quite nice. A heavy duty foam windscreen and close it would probably suit your voice.

Interesting idea. I've felt bad for about 20 straight years that I got that mic as a gift and basically never used it. Your comment may be a redeemer! Thanks!

 

[Chelonian]

I can't sing. You are very brave to post yourself singing 'Acapulco'.
I'll sing with a guitar though. Bit like a crutch.

Thanks! And normally I would sing with instruments as support, too, but just wanted to really allow people to hear the sound of this little boxy room I spend a lot of my life in. ;D

 

[mark de berard]

important vocal freq : 800 hz and 1.2 k and maybe a sprinkle of 8 k

 

[mark de berard]

View attachment 121667

is that your rack ? Aphex all the way baby !

 

[BeGrody]

That's an interesting idea about the SM57 in parallel. I will play around with it.

My main concern was the room being awful to record in, as I had a friend advise me that bad rooms basically dominate recordings. I hope that isn't true for the sort of stuff I want to record. Didn't Bon Iver record a well loved album in a cabin up in the wilderness?

Oh yeah, people have recorded in all kinds of environments. There's also Elliott Smith who recorded frequently at home. Or Sebadoh. Or Guided By Voices. Or The Thermals. In my experience, the ways that bad rooms dominate a recording are in ways that are really obvious. For example, bass resonating at weird frequencies or audible echoes. You can clap your hands in a room and listen for the slapback. A lot of that kind of thing can be helped with even the addition of rugs and curtains. The next level up, actually investing in some acoustic panels and bass traps and employing them intelligently, can help, but it can also do nothing noticeable, if you are not experienced in it.

 

[TalismanRich]

Looks like for now I am pretty much relegated to this 10'x'10' cube of a room. I could maybe go down into the large basement but only now and then as it's cold/nasty down there. Or I could take my laptop/mic to some place outside my house on occasion, though I have no idea where that could be.

Any tips/videos for these type of blankets and how to hang them? I'm not sure what to imagine--like nails into the walls and the blankets hang on those?

I've taken a mic boom stand that you can grab at a place like Guitar Center for $20. Set it up like a "T", find an old quilt in the back closet and drape it over the stand. Put it behind you to cut reflections that come off the walls. Your cardioid mic will attenuate the sound coming from the back of the mic. You can get cheap moving blanket at Harbor Freight for $5-8 a pop. Get a couple and hang them double thickness.

Years ago, I put my mic in a front of my double wide closet facing out. It didn't do anything. Then it struck me that the mic was picking up all the reflections from the walls behind me. I turned it around so it was facing the closet and things were much better.

Back during the covid shutdowns, I saw a singer who built a box that was lined with foam. The box was about 1 1/2 foot square. He put the microphone inside and was cutting an album that way.

The best thing is to just try a few things and see what works better. Carpet, drapes, bed and couches absorb sound. Bare walls and hard floors let everything bounce around.

 

[grimtraveller]

I might be able to try the basement, but it's cold and unpleasant

I could maybe go down into the large basement but only now and then as it's cold/nasty down there

As a guerilla home recorder, I have become accustomed to recording anywhere I can. I've recorded in my kids' room, mine and my wife's room, the kitchen, the front room, the toilet and the bathroom.
None of these spaces are remotely optimal, but so what ? I have learned how to get the best I can from the spaces and work around their crappiness. I've learned how to take suggestions of mic placements and turn them on their head and come up with my own. Perhaps I'm too idiosyncratic but when push comes to shove, I enjoy making music and I want to record songs I've written. If I had a cold nasty basement at my disposal, you can bet your kneecaps that I'd be in there recording, even if there was a rat or two. At the very least you should go in there and see what you can come up with and see if it suits you. If it's cold, invest in a small heater of some kind. It doesn't have to be a nuclear reactor ! If it's nasty, de~nastify it.

When we first moved into this house, the cupboard next to the stairs and between it and the front room had this giant flue in it. These houses used to have this crazy blow heating system that piped hot air into the front room and the flue was the pathway. But it had long since been out of use. People said oh, you could build a toilet there. And I thought of how wonderful it would be to hear people shitting next to the front room as we all watched TV ! But I had my eye on it as a cupboard for my instruments. I hired a disc cutter and spent 2 days cutting that huge metal flue out. It was horrible, sparks flying everywhere. I had to wrap up in goggles and scarves to protect myself and it was so hot. I had to send my wife and son to stay at my mother-in-law's as it was too dangerous to be around. When I finished, the carpet was full of burn holes. We had intended to toss that carpet so I didn't care.

The point of this ramble ? I wasn't going to let anything put me off. Some things take a bit of work and an attitude adjustment. I made a little cupboard, boarded up the bits I couldn't reach and it's been fully operational since whenever it was that England won the rugby union world cup in 2003. I never even think about it. I did while I was doing it though !
Get into that basement. Faint heart never won fair lady !

 

[grimtraveller]

I tend to think a legend like Sarah Vaughan didn't know what it was even like to sing the wrong note

Don't you believe it. Every singer worth their salt is only too aware of what a wrong note sounds like coming out of their mouth. Which is why they work their arses off to make sure that they rarely hit wrong notes and it becomes so normal not to hit wrong notes that if they do 🗣, they know it !

 

[Chelonian]

Get into that basement. Faint heart never won fair lady !

Don't you believe it. Every singer worth their salt is only too aware of what a wrong note sounds like coming out of their mouth. Which is why they work their arses off to make sure that they rarely hit wrong notes and it becomes so normal not to hit wrong notes that if they do 🗣, they know it !

You make good points on both of these. I tend not to be at all defeatist in other aspects of my life, but I may be being a bit wimpy on this one and need to just keep plugging away. Thanks for reminding me!

 

[TalismanRich]

One thing you will find from recording is that it will reveal ALL of the sloppiness in your singing and playing. And you will focus on each and every mistake forever! It doesn't matter if it's singing, playing guitar, drumming, you will hear things that other people may just pass on.

That's a big difference between playing live and doing a recording. Hit a slightly sour note live and it drifts off into the universe, never to be heard again. But when that recorder starts up, it will catch that note and play it back to you time and time again.

It's the greatest thing going for upping your skills.

 

[Chelonian]

One thing you will find from recording is that it will reveal ALL of the sloppiness in your singing and playing. And you will focus on each and every mistake forever! It doesn't matter if it's singing, playing guitar, drumming, you will hear things that other people may just pass on.

That's a big difference between playing live and doing a recording. Hit a slightly sour note live and it drifts off into the universe, never to be heard again. But when that recorder starts up, it will catch that note and play it back to you time and time again.

It's the greatest thing going for upping your skills.

I so agree! It reminds me of a boxer studying films of his previous fights to see when he is dropping his guard, etc. The last thing I want is to Dunning-Kruger myself into thinking I'm singing/playing well enough when I'm not. I'm all for optimistic humility and musical "kaizen."