Paging Chessrock!

[Bobalou]

Chess,

you made mention of 3 Texas instruments chips in a previous thread. I'm a bit unclear about a few things. do the following pre's contain the Burr Brown chip or the Texas Instruments or both?..do you know what each of these use? I remember reading that they all contain something similar?

thanks

the DMP-3
the Grace 101
Sytek
Rane ms1b
RNP
the new SP 828
any others????

 

[Gidge]

Burr Brown was acquired by TI.....

the dmp3, grace 101, and rane ms1b for sure use the Burr Brown INA163........

the Studio Projects 828 is advertised to have the latest revision of Burr Browns......

Sytek has Burr Browns available as an option......

not sure about the RNP.......

 

[chessrock]

the DMP-3
the Grace 101
Sytek
Rane ms1b
RNP
the new SP 828
any others????

The Grace 101, the DMP3, and the Rane MS-1B all use the INA-163. Since Burr-brown was purchased by TI, you could also call it the TI INA-163.

The INA-163 is what they call an Instrument Amp. It's sort of an all-inclusive deal; sort of like a "pre-in-a-chip" kind of thing. Most all of the budget mic pres -- and even some of the higher end stuff -- is centered around an Instrument Amp.

There are a total of 3 different Instrument amps in existance. One of them is also by TI -- it is called the INA-217. The other is by Analog Devices; the SSM2019. Both the INA-217 and the SSM 2019 are newer versions (basically pin-compatible drop-in replacements) of the discontinued SSM-2017. Which is a good thing, apparently (a lot of designers I've talked to didn't like the 2017 at all). So the INA217 and the ssm2019 are basically the same thing.

The RNP, to my knowlege, does not use an Instrument Amp in it's design. It does use a series of transistors and Integrated Circuits, though, from what I gather. Same thing with the Sytek. This is where the confusion comes in to play; although the Sytek uses Burr-brown I.C.'s in it's design (on two of it's channels), they're a completely different product used in a completely different manner. The Sytek and RNP are more complex and more "thought out" designs in that regard. They're not just based around some Instrument Amp. The opamps that the Sytek uses are called JFETs. Now JFETs are kinda' cool in that they do have a lot of characteristics normally associated with analog discreet circuits. I.E. -- they will distort in moreless pleasing ways when driven.

I don't have all of the info. about the new SP 828. I do remember Alan mentioning something about using the INA-217 in all of the new Joemeek products . . . which makes sense considering that it replaces the old SSM-2017 that's in all the previous Joemeek models. And I also know that he was originally considering making the 828 a Joemeek product. I also noticed that he says it uses the latest rev. of the Burr-brown opamps.

This would lead one to conclude that the 828 utilizes the INA-217 chip. The only other logical possibility would be the INA-163 -- which would likely be a good thing, by the way. I highly doubt that anything with a more complex design would be able to fit in a space that small and sell for that kind of price per channel.

Just so you know . . . a lot of the designers I talk to don't seem to like the INA-217 all that well. I hear a lot of reports about the high end sounding funny. Keep in mind these are ulta gearsluts, so they're going to be a lot pickier about this kind of thing than you or I. They do seem to like the INA-163, though, and I have to agree. Most of the 163-based pres out there just sound excellent for the money.

Knowing Alan, though, he probably used the 217 in an attempt to cut corners or something. He ain't the sharpest tool in the shed, you know. He he. I shouldn't say that. Maybe he's just thinking ahead. You know, the good news is that a company called THAT will be releasing a new instrument amp called the 1510 in the near future. They've supposedly been perfecting this thing for the last 5 years or so, and it's going to blow the doors off anything else out there. It will be totally interchangeable and pin-compatible with all the 217's.

 

[Big Kenny]

chess====you are running out of time if you want to try out my groove tube 1b. e mail
In His Name
BK

 

[Bobalou]

Chess my friend, thank you. that was very well done. this one is saved for the archives. You've definetly cleared that up for me and for others I'm sure. we hear alot about these chips and all the products that share them.

makes sense now why my RNP and the Sytek stand out above the rest of the crowded budget pre's. It will be interesting to see waht products come out of the new technologies mentioned.

thank you again, I appreciate your time in putting this togather.

Bobby Loux

 

[acorec]

Re: Re: Paging Chessrock!

The Grace 101, the DMP3, and the Rane MS-1B all use the INA-163. Since Burr-brown was purchased by TI, you could also call it the TI INA-163.

The INA-163 is what they call an Instrument Amp. It's sort of an all-inclusive deal; sort of like a "pre-in-a-chip" kind of thing. Most all of the budget mic pres -- and even some of the higher end stuff -- is centered around an Instrument Amp.

There are a total of 3 different Instrument amps in existance. One of them is also by TI -- it is called the INA-217. The other is by Analog Devices; the SSM2019. Both the INA-217 and the SSM 2019 are newer versions (basically pin-compatible drop-in replacements) of the discontinued SSM-2017. Which is a good thing, apparently (a lot of designers I've talked to didn't like the 2017 at all). So the INA217 and the ssm2019 are basically the same thing.

The RNP, to my knowlege, does not use an Instrument Amp in it's design. It does use a series of transistors and Integrated Circuits, though, from what I gather. Same thing with the Sytek. This is where the confusion comes in to play; although the Sytek uses Burr-brown I.C.'s in it's design (on two of it's channels), they're a completely different product used in a completely different manner. The Sytek and RNP are more complex and more "thought out" designs in that regard. They're not just based around some Instrument Amp. The opamps that the Sytek uses are called JFETs. Now JFETs are kinda' cool in that they do have a lot of characteristics normally associated with analog discreet circuits. I.E. -- they will distort in moreless pleasing ways when driven.

I don't have all of the info. about the new SP 828. I do remember Alan mentioning something about using the INA-217 in all of the new Joemeek products . . . which makes sense considering that it replaces the old SSM-2017 that's in all the previous Joemeek models. And I also know that he was originally considering making the 828 a Joemeek product. I also noticed that he says it uses the latest rev. of the Burr-brown opamps.

This would lead one to conclude that the 828 utilizes the INA-217 chip. The only other logical possibility would be the INA-163 -- which would likely be a good thing, by the way. I highly doubt that anything with a more complex design would be able to fit in a space that small and sell for that kind of price per channel.

Just so you know . . . a lot of the designers I talk to don't seem to like the INA-217 all that well. I hear a lot of reports about the high end sounding funny. Keep in mind these are ulta gearsluts, so they're going to be a lot pickier about this kind of thing than you or I. They do seem to like the INA-163, though, and I have to agree. Most of the 163-based pres out there just sound excellent for the money.

Knowing Alan, though, he probably used the 217 in an attempt to cut corners or something. He ain't the sharpest tool in the shed, you know. He he. I shouldn't say that. Maybe he's just thinking ahead. You know, the good news is that a company called THAT will be releasing a new instrument amp called the 1510 in the near future. They've supposedly been perfecting this thing for the last 5 years or so, and it's going to blow the doors off anything else out there. It will be totally interchangeable and pin-compatible with all the 217's.

Microphone Preamplifiers
INA163 Low Noise, High Performance 1 ±4.5 to ±18 0.0003 15 8 SO-14 Price:2.35@
INA166 Low Noise, Fixed Gain, 2000 V/V 1 ±4.5 to ±18 — 15 4.5
SO-14 Price:5.66@
INA103 High Performance, Low Distortion 1 ±9 to ±25 — 15 8 DIP, SOL-16 Price:4.65@
INA217 Low Noise 1 ±4.5 to ±18 0.004 15 8 DIP, SOIC Price:2.35@


There is NO price difference between the INA163 and the INA217.
Both amps have more than enough performance to work in a mic pre-amp. The designer is at fault if there is a substantial sound difference. If Alan chose the 217 over the 163, it has nothing to do with cost cutting at all.

 

[DJL]

Re: Re: Re: Paging Chessrock!

If Alan chose the 217 over the 163, it has nothing to do with cost cutting at all.

Which one cost less?

 

[acorec]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Paging Chessrock!

Which one cost less?

The 217 and 163 cost the same. They are $2.35 each (in 1000 quantities). There are no further discounts.

 

[chessrock]

Re: Re: Re: Paging Chessrock!

Both amps have more than enough performance to work in a mic pre-amp. The designer is at fault if there is a substantial sound difference.

Spec sheets don't tell shit.

If Alan chose the 217 over the 163, it has nothing to do with cost cutting at all.

I don't know if you saw the smiley face and the "he he -- I shouldn't say that" I put in my post. Usually that's a sign that I'm just giving someone a hard time and not being serious. Should I now put two-smileys and three "he he"s? Would that work better? How 'bout if I put in big type: [size=Large]Warning: I am about to be sarcastic[/size] . Would that help out guys like you?

I'm now convinced that the only people more hypersensitive than Hyatt are Hyatt's little web buddies.

Actually, if his new mic pres indeed utilize the 217, that might be good news. Like I said, THAT is supposed to be unleashing the 1510 sometime in the next decade -- they've been obsessing over it for some time, now. This is good news for anyone with a 217 or a 2017 - based mic pre. A singel chip swap could mean a substantially improved piece of equip.

BTW -- the INA103 has been discontinued for a while now. It may just be left-over stock.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Paging Chessrock!

I'm now convinced that the only people more hypersensitive than Hyatt are Hyatt's little web buddies.

I don't think acorec falls into the category of one of "Hyatt's little web buddies". I think I remember acorec going over to the RO site and rally trashing either Stephen or Alan.

Dan 'Dot' Richards probably would fall into the category of one of "Hyatt's little web buddies", but I think Dot honestly feels that he's being fair and impartial. I probably come in second, but I've been known to bust Alan's balls on several ocassions, and other than the VTB-1, I don't have any PMI products.

As far as what chips are being used where and why, I couldn't care less. If it sounds good to me, I use it; if it doesn't, I don't. Same story with the ECM8000s and the MXL stuff - they earn their keep around here, they get used regularly, and I'll hang on to them.

 

[chessrock]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Paging Chessrock!

I don't think acorec falls into the category of one of "Hyatt's little web buddies". I think I remember acorec going over to the RO site and rally trashing either Stephen or Alan.

Dan 'Dot' Richards probably would fall into the category of one of "Hyatt's little web buddies", but I think Dot honestly feels that he's being fair and impartial. I probably come in second, but I've been known to bust Alan's balls on several ocassions, and other than the VTB-1, I don't have any PMI products.

As far as what chips are being used where and why, I couldn't care less. If it sounds good to me, I use it; if it doesn't, I don't. Same story with the ECM8000s and the MXL stuff - they earn their keep around here, they get used regularly, and I'll hang on to them.

I'm basically going off info I've garnished off various threads, as well as phone, email conversations, etc. I've had over the past few years with some of your other RAP buddies. Namely Scott Dorsey and Monte McGuire. Hey, like I said in my post (and I'm not normally one to quote myself, but) :

"Keep in mind these are ulta gearsluts, so they're going to be a lot pickier about this kind of thing than you or I.

Take that with a grain of salt. Sometimes I wonder if people actually read my posts, or if they just skim through them and take out of them whatever they think they can easily start an argument over. [size=Large] Warning to Acorec: I was just being tongue-in-cheek with that one. [/size]

As for Hyatt's web buddies, I can't even remember who they all are. They've toned things down A LOT . . . just as I think I've toned things down, so I hope we're all at least trying to get along better. With guys like DJL around, I don't exactly have to do any policing. He kinda' takes that stuff to newer and more dangerous levels -- and I'm not at all sure if that's a good thing. Colorado Jay even mentioned something about us butting heads in the past, and I didn't even remember. It's easy to fight with anonymous web personalities -- and just as easy to forget who these guys were 6 months later.

 

[Gidge]

Chess, i dont think your comments are as much toungue-in-cheek as you claim....i think you hide smart ass digs behind the " " .......but i still luv ya

what you are doing is EXACTLY what Alan used to do...every time someone said something negative about Alan or a PMI product he would claim it as part of the anti-SP clan and all that bs........

 

[acorec]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Paging Chessrock!

I don't think acorec falls into the category of one of "Hyatt's little web buddies". I think I remember acorec going over to the RO site and rally trashing either Stephen or Alan.

Dan 'Dot' Richards probably would fall into the category of one of "Hyatt's little web buddies", but I think Dot honestly feels that he's being fair and impartial. I probably come in second, but I've been known to bust Alan's balls on several ocassions, and other than the VTB-1, I don't have any PMI products.

As far as what chips are being used where and why, I couldn't care less. If it sounds good to me, I use it; if it doesn't, I don't. Same story with the ECM8000s and the MXL stuff - they earn their keep around here, they get used regularly, and I'll hang on to them.

BTW, I never went over to trash anyone. "Trash" is certainly a strong word. I had problems with posts being erased because those whom I were asking would not want to answer. I think that the "spamming" of PMI should be left in the past because Alan has certainly changed. He deserves to be able to post here and contribute without harassment like anyone else. I have no studio projects stuff and have no idea if it is good or bad. Although, what I hear is their products are good from 100s of posts from satisfied customers. WHo knows? Maybe chessrock is right, if the 217 is in the SP stuff then the new THAT chip might make it a world class pre-amp. So, some people will care if the 217 is in the design.

 

[chessrock]

The way I look at it, people who make the products we buy are kind of like politicians or celebrities. At least to geeks like us, they are.

In other words, they're promoting themselves and have basically chosen to place themselves squarely in the public eye, and therefore vulnerable to both praise and scrutiny.

It's kinda' like Bennifer. These guys benefit (pun intended) a lot from the celebrity status and from the press . . . but at the same time, they have to understand that they're also open to public criticism, tabloids, etc. etc. For every 1 person who posts something negative like "Alan Hyatt's a low-down bleepity-bleep whatever" there are ten guys saying: "Studio Projects rules. Alan's a great guy. Get the B1. We love you, J-Lo! " So I don't understand why these people get so bent out of shape over that 1/10th of the population that doesn't worship them. Any press is good press.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

The way I look at it, people who make the products we buy are kind of like politicians or celebrities. At least to geeks like us, they are.

In other words, they're promoting themselves and have basically chosen to place themselves squarely in the public eye, and therefore vulnerable to both praise and scrutiny.

So I don't understand why these people get so bent out of shape over that 1/10th of the population that doesn't worship them. Any press is good press.

What I've always objected to is the lack of respect some people are shown on these forums, especially in light of their accomplishments. I've never said "worship" them or even "stand in awe" of them, just give them a little respect when talking to them, and realize that we can learn a lot about their products from having them here. And we can point out the parts of their message that we feel are just "hype", but without trashing them personally, or getting into fights with them.

Kinda like seeing a post like: "Hey, B.B. you're way overrated, man. Same few notes, over and over again. Why don't you listen to some Steve Vai or Eddie Van Halen and pick up some decent licks? My 8 year old kid can play faster than you."

Now that would be disrespectful. And I'd be all over a poster like that in a minute.

 

[chessrock]

Kinda like seeing a post like: "Hey, B.B. you're way overrated, man. Same few notes, over and over again. Why don't you listen to some Steve Vai or Eddie Van Halen and pick up some decent licks? My 8 year old kid can play faster than you."

I understand exactly what you're trying to say. You're point is well-taken.

My only problem with your analogy is that if B.B. were on this board, I would expect him to show respect for the board as well. In other words, I would hope that he would mind the "no-spam" rules just like everyone else. I suppose I can see if he wanted to make a general press release about an upcoming tour or what not, but at least try not to go overboard with it.

I would'nt peg Mr. King to be the type that would disrespect some of his fellow guitarists. I certainly would hope he would have a lot more class than to say disparaging remarks about Mr. Vai, or Mr. Van Halen, Mr. Clapton, etc. That would show not only a lack or class or respect towards his peers, but also towards the spirit of the board. And in that event, I certainly wouldn't blame the guy who would inevitably come out and chastise Mr. King for his behavior.

I think where you and I differ on this, Harvey, is in how we perceive those with great accomplishments. You tend to believe that you can't disrespect a person for their personality flaws without also disrespecting their accomplishments and contributions. I tend to believe that someone could potentially be a world-class guitarist, for example, as well as a world-class prick at the same time. And I am not in any way saying this is the case, but IF (let's pretend) Mr. King were to come on this board and act like Alan and display Alan's behavior, I would be that guy who said: "Yo, Mr. King. You're an amazing musician. And I thank and respect you for all that you have done for your craft and for music history. But could you kindly refrain from being such a PRICK ? ? Thank you! ! "

Similarly, let's pretend that Phil Specter were to pay a visit to this board. And again, let's pretend he was indeed convicted and guilty of the charges brought against him.

Would you fault me for saying something like: "Thank you for gracing us with your presence, and for your contributions to music history. Now get off our board, you murderous f&%$." ? ?

Would you tell me: "Chessrock, show some respect. Do you have any idea who you're talking to or how many platinum records he's produced?" Yea, I'm talking to a homicidal maniac. I don't care about the rest.

Now I realize we're not talking about murderers or anything here. But we are talking about a person and his accomplishments -- and how does one separate one from the other . . . and does a person's accomplishments automatically excuse them from negative actions or boorish people skills?

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Paging Chessrock!

BTW, I never went over to trash anyone. "Trash" is certainly a strong word. I had problems with posts being erased because those whom I were asking would not want to answer.

Sorry, that was a bit harsh.

All I meant is that I would never consider you as one of "Hyatt's little web buddies". Almost the opposite, in fact.

 

[Rossi]

To come back to the original topic:

There is one big difference between INA217 and INA163 - the 163 is only available as a surface mount device. So you can't use it on a through the hole PCB. I think Alan once mentioned this, too.

BTW the pres in the Apogee Mini-Me are also INA163 based. Since there are a lot of expensive chips in there, I'm pretty sure they took it because they liked the sound, not because it is cheap.

 

[crazydoc]

Would you fault me for saying something like: "Thank you for gracing us with your presence, and for your contributions to music history. Now get off our board, you murderous f&%$." ? ?

Yes

Oh, I'm sorry Mr. Rose - I know you were one of the greatest players in the history of the game, but you can't be in the Hall of Fame because you may have some questionable ethics that I feel negate all of your accomplishments.

 

[chessrock]

Alright, Mr. Simpson. We know you murdered your wife (and her "friend") and all, but damn could you run with the football. And those are some nice attorneys you got there. Ah, what the hell. We'll let it slide this one time. Not guilty. But we'll be watching you.