My new preamp sounds like my cheaper one? HELP!

  • Thread starter Thread starter hemmick reef
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thedude400 said:
Where is the approximate point when a pre would go from a "budget" pre to a noticible "wow" pre? budget=$50-400 : wow= $400-3000? higher?
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No, its not so much about price range as it is about features and circuitry. A pre can cost $800 but be jammed with a bunch of so-so features that jack the cost up to where they have to use a cheaper preamp circuit. Whereas a simple $350 SCA preamp of classic design will pretty much kill a more expensive Focusswrite Plutonium Pro pre in sheer sound quality.
 
mrface2112 said:
i think we need to go back to what chessrock said......how do you know it's the pre that you don't like, and that it's not your room (or monitors or converters) that's coloring your judgement? what it amounts to is this: can you truly trust your room and monitoring environment?
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I brought this point up yesterday (in fact before chessrock, if it matters), but it's more than just the monitoring environment - the recording room itself has a huge impact here. For example, I haven't liked the AT 4033 mic very much, but part of my bias against it (and it is a bias) comes from the fact that I heard a rather poor recording of Bela Fleck's banjo that was made with a 4033. I figured out pretty quickly that the problem wasn't really the 4033, it was the room in which it was used. It's easy for the sound of the room to overwhelm the qualities (good or bad) of a particular microphone. And that's even more true when you look at the subtleties of comparing mic pres.

Yes, the monitoring environment is important, but it's the stuff BEFORE the mic pre that is most important. Problems with the mic itself, with the room itself, with the position of the mic, can all overwhelm any subtle quality of the mic pre.
 
Oh yeah..if you are willing to exert yourself a little those SCA pres are top quality. A quick look at the schematic and the parts list and you realize those are the real deal. Like I stated before..the parts for an SCA A12 are as much as the Brick retails for...I think 1000$ a channel is about right on the retail side BUT you can build them for way less if you are willing to apply yourself..depends on how serious you are or how much dough you have...If you want to be any type of engineer I think one should learn at least a little about the tools of the trade. A car analogy. What is the difference between a Chevy Chevette and a Ferrari? They both have the same parts...engine, transmission, tires, frame etc...
That is the same thing as comparing an API 312 or a Great River to a Brick or RNP (by the way, the RNC from FMR is great..at 175$ best bang for the buck I ever heard!)...Yep, the room is very important but no room on earth can make a crappy mic and pre sound good...

Ray
 
rsolinski said:
That is the same thing as comparing an API 312 or a Great River to a Brick or RNP (by the way, the RNC from FMR is great..at 175$ best bang for the buck I ever heard!)...Yep, the room is very important but no room on earth can make a crappy mic and pre sound good...
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wow i just lost all respect for you.
 
why, about the rnc? It can't hold a candle to a Manley Vari-Mu or an 1176 but for 175$ it is tops in it's class....

Ray
 
Gilliland said:
but it's the stuff BEFORE the mic pre that is most important. Problems with the mic itself, with the room itself, with the position of the mic, can all overwhelm any subtle quality of the mic pre.
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spot on! :D

we don't like to think (or talk) about the room, etc., b/c spending $1200 on room treatment is not nearly as cool or slutty as spending $1200 on a 2NV.

and yes, it's amazing what a minor difference in placement can do for the tone of a mic (and thus the preamp)--you can go from boom to bust very quickly and easily. the BLUE Dragonfly is a perfect example of a mic that is VERY particular about its placement.


cheers,
wade
 
rsolinski said:
why, about the rnc? It can't hold a candle to a Manley Vari-Mu or an 1176 but for 175$ it is tops in it's class....

Ray
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Yes, about the RNC. casually mentioning you like it is one thing; mentioning the price borders on advertising...but the fact that you blasted the RNP in the same post has me scratching my head... Nothing good under $1000 per channel, but then the pres you mention (API, GR) are under $1000 per channel. so I am just confused by this.
 
I will type.....a ...little ...more ....slowly...for ...you....
Advertising? Everyone knows how much an RNC costs...The RNP is okay, I certainly didn't blast it and at it's price (I won't mention it, I don't wish to offend) is a pretty good deal. It will never be confused with a high end, boutique or classic pre (I think Mark would agree on that point). You can't touch a good discrete pre RETAIL (is that clear enough for you, as in purchasing from a dealer) for under 1000$ a channel...OSA pre's are a steal at their price point but you need to buy a rack or rack them yourself...you can BUILD (you know, buy some project board, discrete opamps, transformers etc...) these for roughly 350$ a channel if you apply yourself and can follow a schematic..If you can find a GR or an API (not a clone) for under a grand buy it. It will be the best deal you will ever get. I hadn't realized I was baiting the local bbs troll..good luck with all that ...

Cheers,
Ray
 
rsolinski said:
You can't touch a good discrete pre RETAIL (is that clear enough for you, as in purchasing from a dealer) for under 1000$ a channel...
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Falken is saying that you can get top shelf pres for under $1k per channel, some way under. Example, the API 3124 gives you 4 channels for about $2500 brand new.

http://www.mercenary.com/api314chanmi.html
 
leddy said:
Falken is saying that you can get top shelf pres for under $1k per channel, some way under. Example, the API 3124 gives you 4 channels for about $2500 brand new.

http://www.mercenary.com/api314chanmi.html
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Thanks, man.

Ray,

Sorry for having an attitude... the RNC comment just seemed to be out of left field to me.... I assure you I am not a troll. Its just conspicuous when someone comes on and says "you have to spend thousands of dollars to get good sound....EXCEPT with PRODUCT XYZ..which is ONLY $175" Didn't mean to offend but I see how I would have.
 
Sure, if you want to drop 2500$!!!...my point is/was you can't get a single channel (or dual) for under a grand, retail...The GR is right around there..The sytek is chip based (not discrete)...500 beans simply isn't enough to cover the build of a truly great pre (wasn't that what this was originally about, the brick?)..I think API and OSA (they are right around 500 per channel BUT you need a rack and power supply)are GREAT deals but I will say I prefer the sound of the 312 to the 512 and later in the API line...just personal preference having worked with a bunch of different builds...You do know that API was bought out, right? I haven't heard the new 3124's..I also prefer running the 312's with a John Hardy 990c and more voltage...a little cleaner, more headroom although an old 2520 still has a sound that is cool....

Ray
 
what are you tracking

this goes back to stacking tracks....but, if the user is just interested in a vox track and or bass tracking...well , are you going to hear it in a home studio.
Interesting enough at the Universal audio page for the LA2A UAD plug the
female vox is tracked through a 1604 mackie and AT 4050 with a little 'plate 140" for Ambience. That says something that a name and respected manufacture of the 610 , 110 pre-amps and most respected analog compressor in history would use the Mackie 1604 as a base line example.

In my room which is a 20x25 loft space without sound proofing , I can only hear that the 610B is a subtle shade softer in hi-eq using the Manely refernce gold.
If you don't hear the brick doing anything than its Convertors, Monitors and room treatments first. The "purist" always revert to the $69 Art MP to Neve argument which is like "right wing left wing politics" and totally unrealistic. My question like many others who have project studios where 50% of our sound source is properly tracked samples and line level electronics or properly tracked main band in a studio with the need for home overdubs in a comfortable space is will the
"killer pre-amp" or channel strip make me go "wow"!
And, no it did not. Tracking through a clean "base IC" pre to a good convertor
monitered through Waves Renn. channel with light verb, noise gating, 1.5 compression, de-essing, -6db on the peaks and silent make up gain with only the 5.6 ms processing delay does make me go "wow" while the original signal
is printed and choices about attack, release and threshold can be relized at
mix down in a critical listening environment. The UA 6176 has not made or broken any complete track and it cost 4X's a Brick and 125% of an RME Fire face with 4 good pre's, killer clock and covertors that put PT to shame. The extra isn't there and its a dis-service to those who are looking for a big gain in audio quality to use words like " night and day, massively open depth of field" instead of subtle
shade of mid-range presence and subtally larger ambient field in distance miking.
The convertors,however, made a hugh noticable diff. in clarity and quality.
You will not hear a pre-amp difference with out a good recording chain.
Spend your money on an Apogee first.
 
Good Friend said:
O man how do they sound? I always used to listen to abbey road stuff from the early days before i even knew what v72 was and i loved the sound. It sounded very "orange" or "red" to me. Then later recordings kinda lost that sound and a wider range of colors were present. But i still dig all the recordings from those earlier days. I am no preamp expert but they seem to have some sort of a midrangey quality, some sort of "orange grit" sound to them.

Is this how they sound to you or am i crazy?
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I have a Chandler TG2 which was used at abbey road on their console(i don't know if it was the early days or not), and it sounds exactly how you described, especially when you push the input gain and roll back the output dial. Very very "orange" and slighty gritty.
 
rsolinski said:
I said it before and I will say it again..the Brick is not a great pre..for that price point it can't be unless groove tubes has a transformer winder enslaved in their basement...it is a decent pre because at least it uses real tube voltages. A high end pre will have as much in parts as a brick retails for!
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Care to describe your actual experiences using the Brick, or are you opinions based only on price and specs?
 
this is becoming a long thread,
but now, lets not forget the initial question;
the guy was a bit dissapointed, now it'd be great if we can help him get a more impressive sound,
now i haven't worked with lots of tube gear yet, i did use some TLA stuff and it didn't impress me, i thought that: WOW, a tube, i can push the volume big time and enjoy the nice even harmonic distortion...mhhh...wasn't that great

but maybe the brick can give some nice distortion, sometimes that might be nice for an effect,
i think that the brick is a decent preamp since so many people seem to be satisfied with it,
so lets say you don't sell or trade it, but you get yourself a second piece of gear to change the sound, to get a Wow effect,
my soundcraft M8 has 'nice' preamps, not impressive, but when i plug a fat compressor in it, it sounds SO much better

i think that might be the best way to go further, think about the second piece of gear, an EQ might be nice, but i think dynamics are more fun and important... record at ANY volume and then use software eq's...i did that for years

if i were you i'd go for one of the famous 'lowbudget' compressors,
for transparancy= the RNC (stereo) ($175)
for a fat sound= dbx 160x (single channel) ($220 on ebay)
for a fat to sqashed sound= symetrix 501 (single channel) ($180 on ebay)

nice thing about the last two compressors is that they're vintage, got a very distinct sound that i (and some others) really like, built like a tank,
you can ALWAYS sell them for nice money, they're balanced so you don't loose volume if you hook it up right after the preamp

in my experience any other low budget compressor will eat away too much bottom end and might give you the cheap "plastic" compression sound,
i love it when a compressor gives a little bit of punch to my sound.
 
hemmick reef said:
This is what finally sold the Brick to me

http://www.recording.org/modules.php?name=Reviews&rop=showcontent&id=27

I thought it was a preamp with colour, maybe that's what I was really looking for, and the brick is not very coloured? But how do I know until I try, when I'm just going on reviews!

I agree the room, acoustics are vital.
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Note that in the article Kurt indicates that he is using a compressor/limiter after the Brick to attenuate the output so that he can crank the Brick and generate a bit of tube distortion. If you want "color" with the Brick, you will need to operate it in a similar fashion (pad or attenuate the output and crank the gain). At lower gain levels, it will just sound hi-fi. Nonetheless, it won't be extreme color like with a cranked guitar amp - and generally you don't want that anyway. Some tube pres, like the Pendulum, have both a gain and output control to allow you to do this without having to use an outboard attenuator (although an NHT PVC works pretty well for this purpose also). Give it a try and see what you think.

I also have a Peavey Tube Sweetener that I can use if I simply want to add some subtle tube color/ambiance to a signal -- but it is still subtle (these are cheap - @$100-125 on e-bay for 2 channels).
 
I heard the brick..at a friend's studio...(www.seventhwavestudio.com)..He is using it as a "dirty" bass di...I told him I was thinking of getting one so I ran some vox, acoustic guitar thru it and a Drawmer..(mic:U87) for comparison.I popped the hood.., poked around. thought it would probably shine with some better tubes and transformers...but those mods would take it up in price (!) so I decided against it. I have an old RP220 that I modded to the max that sounds a hair better (and I mean a tiny bit) than the brick already..It sounds as good or better than any pre..in it's price range.
My friend also has : A Voxbox, Vintech 1272, API 312, Drawmer 1960 and Mackie D8b...It doesn't hold up to any of those BUT they are WAY more money...He likes it as an "effect" box on bass and fender roads...I am going to explain this once more:
Transformers cost money...all real voltage tube pres need them due to the extremely high internal impedance of tube circuits.

check the prices on these transformers and realize a real tube pre needs an input and output for each channel:

Jensen
Lundahl
Cinemag

like vintage? check evil bay for UTC, Triad....

Add the cost of the case and parts (tubes, caps, power supply etc...)
How did GT hit that price point? Why is the Vipre by GT 5 to 8 times as much?
Realize also that a good rule of thumb in manufacturing is 5:1..in other words to make even a small profit you need to charge at least 5 times as much for a product over material costs.
I am not busting anyone's ba11$ over this. I have a RACK full of cheap gear but I am not pretending they are gull wing mercedes, either :)..MY point was...if you apply yourself you can DIY great pre's for less than one pays for the brick or any other pre in this range. Like the brick? Great..get it and use it and have a blast! Different strokes, ymmv etc... When someones asks why it doesn't sound like..fill in the blank...I will tell you in electrical terms because I've heard it and seen the guts...I don't make assertions about things I have never heard or seen...that said, it sounds really cool on his fender roads cranked up...think old Atlanta Rythym Section !:)

Ray
 
Ray,

What did you do to the RP220? I have one and think its pretty good, but it doesn't come close to my Vintech 1272...
 
I changed the input transformers (the stock one's were a little dirty sounding)..opamps to 2604's and tubes to tele ax7's..clipped the output caps..better pots since they are directly in the signal path .. that is all I can think of..it sounds pretty good but for all that time and expense I could have just got a peavey vmp2 and been done with it...it sounds good on some stuff to me but it is not my go to pre....

Ray
 
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