Musician's Advocate: What a joke!

[alanhyatt]

Alan,

Now where in Orange County can I try a B-3?

In OC it is Micworks in Costa Mesa, Jim's Music in Irvine, and in Hollywood it is Coast Recording.

 

[chessrock]

Alright Alan, here is some positive criticism:

I think you have a good, well-priced competitive product.

Here's some more "helpful," politically correct, non-ego-destroying criticism:

Please quit worry about what people think or say about you. And take care of this person, will ya? :

http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=70755

That's far more important than defending yourself.

 

[MrZekeMan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Alan: Just curious . . .

but I guess if your head is fragile and bruises easily a nerf bat can seem rather heavy. I guess different people see things differently, and the damage/severity of criticism is relative to each person. My parents always taught me the "sticks and stones" thing.

I would suspect that many posters would consider some of your tactics as more than nerf batting.

Good point, but generally you do have to earn respect first, which Harvey did in very short time.

True, but that wasn't the point of the discussion. Respect can be earned, but disrespect shouldn't be standard operating procedure until respect is earned. That's the problem sometimes on Homerecording.com. It sort of has a reputation for being a full contact board. That doesn't hurt my tender feelings a whole lot, but it does turn off some people. Particularly those who have already paid dues. Why should they hang around and put up with the crap when they don't have to?

A person like Alan has paid his dues. He was in the trenches when a lot of us were suckling at our mothers tit. If he hadn't paid those dues, he wouldn't be able to be doing what he's doing now. I respect that. I have no problem giving him the respect I feel he is due.

I'm refering mostly to guys like Crawdad, who most certainly has my respect, and he should have yours and if he doesn't then you don't have mine.

I prefer to be respected. I can live without it though. I've done it before. I still don't see your point here though. Your original argument was that Alan should contribute more to general recording discussions so he can be respected more by "long-time" members. You weren't talking about yourself, but were talking about Crawdad? He hasn't been a member longer than you or I. What is your definition of a long-time member.

Incidentally, I think Crawdad addressed the issues in a very respectful way. He gets good marks from me.

And that's not to say that Crawdad doesn't respect Alan or that I don't respect you. I'm sure he does, but I also believe that Crawdad and peole like him would respect Alan more were he to contribute more.

Possibly so. But it's up to Alan to decide how he apportions his time on this board and other boards. He is no doubt a busy guy, overseeing manufacturing his products, developing new products, answering questions about his products on this and other sites, and moderating his forum. I would love it if Alan would hang out more and give more input,
but I'm happy with whatever he can do. And giving us access to him for questions and input makes me happy enough. I think he has his priorities straight. I, for one, don't need him to talk more about mic placement, for me to respect him more.

I understand your analogy, and it's a pretty good one. The only flaw is that the moderator really can't be likened to a host. The moderator never invited any of us here. And it's not his duty to pass judgement on who should/shouldn't be here.

LOL...

Well I beg to differ. That's exactly what his function is. He decides who to invite. On this particular board, the moderator has issued an open invitation to anyone who would like to come. And, it most certainly is his duty to pass judgement on who should shouldn't be here, based on their conduct while here. If anyone crosses the line, he can kick them out, and ban them from the site.

Taylor

 

[MrZekeMan]

double post deleted

.

 

[chessrock]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Alan: Just curious . . .

That's exactly what his function is. He decides who to invite. On this particular board, the moderator has issued an open invitation to anyone who would like to come. And, it most certainly is his duty to pass judgement on who should shouldn't be here, based on their conduct while here. If anyone crosses the line, he can kick them out, and ban them from the site.

Well I'm still here, so I am assuming any one of several things:

* He agrees with everything I say and thinks everyone else is a bunch of but-munches

* He disapproves of me and should ban my ass, but happens to really be slacking on his duties lately.

* He has determined it's not within his power or scope of responsibilities to tell people how to act and behave, what they can and can't post, etc and would rather step in only under exteme conditions . . . (ie - physically threatening, overly-offensive, obscene or racist remarks, etc. although that would likely include half the posts in the cave! )

Your original argument was that Alan should contribute more to general recording discussions so he can be respected more by "long-time" members.

No, my original argument was actually some complaints I had about Musician's Advocate. Then it erupted in to controversy because the owner Musician's Advocate felt the need to respond to my complaints in what some felt was a negative, counter-productive manner.

The point is that Alan or Brad (Musician's Advocate) don't have to do anything to develop respect with anyone if they don't want to, but doing so can be good for business. And in fact, I am almost as qualified to talk about this subject as Harvey is about mics. Or as much as you are qualified to talk about whatever you do as a profession.

The only point you're making is that you happen to be one of the people who respects him and doesn't have a problem with him. I happen to be one of those who does. So what do you want to do? Arm-wrestle over it? As I mentioned, Alan is in an environment that can be potentially hostile where some will like him and some won't.

You've made your point where you stand, and I've made mine, so let's let it die already.

 

[MrZekeMan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Alan: Just curious . . .

Well I'm still here, so I am assuming any one of several things:

* He agrees with everything I say and thinks everyone else is a bunch of but-munches

So you are saying when a host has a gathering of people that he only invites, or allows to stay, people that agree with him 100% on every issue in existence? There wouldn't be very many dinner parties in the world were that the case. Different opinions and discussions of same, is one of the spices of life.

* He disapproves of me and should ban my ass, but happens to really be slacking on his duties lately.

Or maybe he doesn't think you've stepped over the line yet. From my eperience, these moderators seem to draw the line pretty liberally in the interest of frees speech

* He has determined it's not within his power or scope of responsibilities to tell people how to act and behave, what they can and can't post, etc and would rather step in only under exteme conditions . . . (ie - physically threatening, overly-offensive, obscene or racist remarks, etc. although that would likely include half the posts in the cave! )

I don't think many moderators have decided it's not within their power or scope to moderate. Were that the case, we would never see anyone banned. While it's rare, it does happen.

Taylor

 

[chessrock]

So you're answer is none of the above? Please clarify what your point is. Do you even remember any more? I think we're still back to the fact that the moderator isn't the host. A moderator can kick people off who get out of line the same way a security guard can kick someone out of a party if they get out of hand, but censorship of free speach isn't one of their duties.

 

[MrZekeMan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Alan: Just curious . . .

You've made your point where you stand, and I've made mine, so let's let it die already.

Okey Dokey

 

[MrZekeMan]

So you're answer is none of the above? Please clarify what your point is. Do you even remember any more?

Please clarify what your point is. Do you even remember any more?

Of course not!

 

[crawdad]

Everyone--there are no real rules here and I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to dictate what anyone should or shouldn't say. My statements to Alan Hyatt were based solely on something I thought he could do to strengthen his position here, since is is representing a company. What he chooses is his business.

Some are complaining about the bickering here. Well, compared to most boards I've been around, this one is paradise. I'll tell you something. Go to several other recording boards and try and ask a simple question. More often than not, you'll get torn to shreds, belittled, made fun of and insulted. Then, maybe someone will be gracious enough to actually answer you in a condescending way.

We help each other here. The atmosphere is good. Thats because there is a spirit of co-operation and sharing, which is why I keep coming back. Sometimes I ask questions, sometimes I answer them. When I can do niether, I keep my mouth shut! The reason I like Harvey so much is because he's offered all this wisdom freely. No agenda, no ego. Just a big heart and a love of people and recording.

We all may not have Harvey's experience, but we all can learn from his example. I think most would agree that he's the epitome of the perfect "guest" at this party. Really, thats my only vision pertaining to this BBS. However, if someone doesn't want to participate that fully, I have no problem with that. Life is too short to get caught up in such trivial things. I like it here now. As long as it continues like it is, I'll keep dropping by--hopefully with an occasional bottle of wine rather than "whine"

 

[MrZekeMan]

The reason I like Harvey so much is because he's offered all this wisdom freely. No agenda, no ego. Just a big heart and a love of people and recording.

You just don't ever hear him saying a harsh word about anyone do you?

Taylor

 

[crawdad]

You just don't ever hear him saying a harsh word about anyone do you?

Taylor

You sure don't!

 

[chessrock]

I saw him tear a poor guy a new asshole but good once on RAP. Whoooaaa Nelly! It was a good one. The dude deserved it, though, and it was a good read.

 

[Moreguitars]

You just don't ever hear him saying a harsh word about anyone do you?

Taylor

Harvey really is the king, or the pope, or the high priest of bulletin board talk. Always helpful. I sometimes wonder what he gets out of it, but maybe he just likes helping people.

Still, I have seen a fair share of abuse even at him. I often wonder if all of us were in a room, what would the tone of conduct be? The internet at it's best, gives you a world wide access to information from a variety of sources. There is even a few top notch pro's who volunteer their services who's help is imeasurable. The benefits from this free flow of information will advance the art by leaps and bounds...

The internet at it's worst offers a level playing feild for any jerk off to insult anyone anonomously, free from retrubution. This is where the internet falls short. Common face to face decency is eliminated. Any misfit who's perceived life has been dealt a wrong can now be unleashed on the masses. Some articulate it well, some dont. But it's still the same b.s

This internet that Al Gore invented is not perfect, but overall it's pretty damn good. But, it's only as good as the people who use it.

 

[MrZekeMan]

I think we're still back to the fact that the moderator isn't the host. A moderator can kick people off who get out of line the same way a security guard can kick someone out of a party if they get out of hand, but censorship of free speach isn't one of their duties.

Sure it is. For some reason people get the idea these boards are platforms for free speech. Anyone who wants free speech can go procure and pay for their own forum. Any free speech available on thes boards is afforded by the HOST You can call him a security guard if you want to, because any good host provides security too.

Most proprietors of these types of sites cast a pretty wide net when it comes to allowing free speech. But the privilege is their's to give or take away.

It's the same if we go back to our analogy of a dinner party. You have no inalienable right to free speech when you enter someone elses house. The host may afford that to you. But they may also set the boundaries, and kick your butt outside if you go beyond their boundaries

Taylor

 

[Sky Blue Lou]

I have to agree with Taylor on the above bit about free speech. No such thing in/on a private enterprise. Go shout about it at the next City Council meeting if you don't like it.

Anyway, I climbed out of the cave to poke around a bit and came up on this thread. Seems like I've read a bunch of this shit before. Explaining what you meant about what you said when you said what you meant. My god but it's tedious. You guys go on explaining what you meant and I'll crawl back to the cave.

But first I wanted to send out a shout to Alan Hyatt and wish him and his biz the best next year. I too enjoy his contributions to this board. I also appreciate a boss who isn't afraid to stand up for himself. Lots of people say you have to kiss the customer's ass and I couldn't disagree more. I run a small business and I've found I get a lot more respect when I tell it like it is. The assholes in this world will never be satisfied. If you kowtow one time they will expect it every time. If you fuck up, fix it. Beyond that you have to be true to yourself first.

So Happy New Year Alan and all the rest of the mic forum regulars as well. May '03 be even better!


lou

 

[chessrock]

It's the same if we go back to our analogy of a dinner party. You have no inalienable right to free speech when you enter someone elses house. The host may afford that to you. But they may also set the boundaries, and kick your butt outside if you go beyond their boundaries.

And obviously no one's gone beyond them, so what are you saying and how does it apply? What is the argument, anyway? Do you have any new points to make here, or are you still trying to figure out what a moderator does and how it relates to my dinner party analogy? Haven't we yet moved on to bigger and better things? Wasn't this supposed to be about the assclowns at Musician's Advocate?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=moderator

I need a drink. Bad.

 

[MrZekeMan]

And obviously no one's gone beyond them, so what are you saying and how does it apply?

I think I've said it clearly. I'm not going to rehash it because you don't seem to want to grasp it.

What is the argument, anyway? Do you have any new points to make here...

I made them. My point is that this board is not a platform for free speech. I was responding to this statement by you:

A moderator can kick people off who get out of line the same way a security guard can kick someone out of a party if they get out of hand, but censorship of free speach isn't one of their duties.

Again, my point is that this is not accurate.

Originally posted by chessrock are you still trying to figure out what a moderator does and how it relates to my dinner party analogy?

There was never anything to figure out. I know what a moderator is, and what he does. You seem to think he's a security guard.

From your link:

Moderator:

"A person, or small group of people, who manages a moderated
mailing list or Usenet newsgroup. Moderators are
responsible for determining which email submissions are passed
on to the list or newsgroup."

Another way to say it: "responsible for determining which email submissions are passed on to the list or newsgroup, and which ones are not allowed. IOW, CENSORED.

Originally posted by chessrock Haven't we yet moved on to bigger and better things? Wasn't this supposed to be about the assclowns at Musician's Advocate?

I'm not the one who made it about something else.

Taylor

 

[James Argo]

I need a drink. Bad.

Then call Drink Advocate... They have special prices. Waaaayyy too low to advertised.

 

[MrZekeMan]

Then call Drink Advocate... They have special prices. Waaaayyy too low to advertised.

Some times they don't answer the phone though.