Musician's Advocate: What a joke!

[chessrock]

If that is leveraging the market for marketing, then so be it

And a lot of people are fine with that. But some aren't. You can't please everyone, but you can at least address them with dignity.

Perhaps in the early days I made some mistakes by not knowing how these boards work

And you've gotten somewhat better in ways.

Sometimes you just seem to want to make insults and simply don't care. You must realize that it is this style of writing or behavior that starts the nasty rebuttals.

The best analogy I can think of: When I post a song in the MP3 clinic, I realize, accept and understand that I am putting it out there for the public to criticize. A lot of times, it's going to be negative. And it's tough to swallow at times, but ultimately, the negative stuff is very beneficial to us.

I suppose I could hand my stuff to my girlfriend or my dad, and they'll build my ego up and tell me it's brilliant, but ultimately I'm not going to get any better that way.

Similarly, you've chosen a profession where you put out a product, and you've chosen to make yourself a visible spokesperson for that product. You have to understand and accept what comes with that responsibility. People will make comments about you and your products. Some will be uproariously enthralled with Alan and PMI, and some won't. Learn how to deal with in stride (like a man).

When that happens to me, I am defending myself Chessrock...not my company as your insults are directed towards me.

You may think I'm insulting towards you, when in fact I'm trying to help you understand a few things. Although it is rapidly growing, the Pro Audio industry is still a very small community. As the ship's captain, you've steered your company very skillfully, but you still have some room for improvements in how you conduct yourself. Just like our friend Brad, about whom this thread was originally authored.

As for Tom Cram, he started a post on ProSound Web that went like...What it is about Alan Hyatt that you just hate or how I bug him . . . So we continue to have this problem.

As tough as it is, I think you have to look at these things as opportunities to prove yourself. I know how hard it is, when people seemingly attack you or your work, to keep a level head.

Do you ebay very often? I was considering bidding on an item the other day, when I noticed a negative feedback a particular seller had. When I read the seller's response to that feedback, it went something like: "It was totally my fault, and I apologize for allowing it to happen," etc etc.

Now doesn't that kind of response make you much more inclined to deal with that seller than if he had posted something like: "It wasn't my fault: Buyer is a no-good, lying, piece-of-shit. Don't believe him!" ?

I know I do.

you need to look into a mirror and figure out how others take you as well.

How people on this board perceive me is not of particular concern to me. I like to be liked, but I can contribute and learn whether or not I'm everyone's best friend. Your situation is a lot different from mine, and I can sense that it frustrates you a lot. Don't let it.

It is easy for a person on these boards to say things to a computer that they would not say face to face.

It affords one a certain anonymity, which has it's benefits and drawbacks. But I'll talk to you the same way in person. It just won't seem as hostile, because you'll pick up nonverbal cues that come across much more pleasant than how you are interperating my words on a computer screen.

This is just a response to your post which hopefully will get you to look at the other side before you post back.

And I appreciate it.

 

[crawdad]

Alan,

Thanks for the response. I understand you are in a precarious position and both damned if you do and damned if you don't. I, on the other hand, have nothing to lose by throwing my 2 cents in. We live in different worlds. My company does audio and is a small time affair, so my opinions are not going to make any difference to MY bottom line! In your case, you have to walk a fine line when dealing with SP subjects. Believe me, I have followed the threads!

Though I still believe in my comments, I certainly do understand your being gunshy after all that has happened. You are entitled to your freedom to do what is right for you, despite my suggestions. I may not totally agree with your choice, but I respect it and don't feel like its my place to dictate to you as far as what you should and shouldn't do.

So if I have any questions, I'll shoot them to you via e-mail. Meanwhile, if you ever come to the Detroit area, contact me and I'll buy the beer! Good talking with you.

 

[chessrock]

Alan: Just curious . . .

The fact that you use a general recording discussion board as a means to answer people's questions about your products, yet request people to email and/or talk offline about recording issues puzzles me somewhat.

When people email you about your products, do you direct them to homerecording.com?

Before I start in to yet even more bashing, please help me understand this (? ?)

 

[Treeline]

We're getting a little anally retentive about this...

Here's a real homereccer's perspective.

I come to this BBS mostly because of the friends I've made here, but also because it is one of perhaps two or three places I've encountered where I can learn as much as I can stand in a short period of time. I'm a newbie (not a pro, not prolific, have a day job, all of that) and knew nothing - absolutely nothing - about mics a year and a half ago. Since that time, I've read just about every mic forum post (rarely having much to say here myself - what's the point), including Harvey's Thread. What I've picked up here would take me two years to learn at a local college, even if I could find one that knew what it was doing. Alan has been a big part of that.

I could give a rat's ass whether he only posts about SP related stuff or not. When he posts, I read, because I'll learn something I didn't know before. The same goes for Harvey's and Dan's threads.

Fer Pete's sake, when are we going to learn not to squander the talent we have here?

 

[Track Rat]

Re: We're getting a little anally retentive about this...

Here's a real homereccer's perspective.
Fer Pete's sake, when are we going to learn not to squander the talent we have here?

AMEN to that. It is a drag when a very few can drive off someone that can truly offer some help or insight. We only shoot ourselves in the foot when the Alans, Harveys, Tom Crams, Steven Pauls etc won't come around here because of the shit some folks just need to stir up.

 

[mgraffeo]

I think that someone needs to write a book:

"Chessrock is from Mars, Alan is from Venus"

;-)


I damn near got myself fired from a job 4 years ago, because an email sent over a list REALLY pissed me off, and I responded VERY angrily. It took a long time, and lots of extra effort, to heal the wounds caused then. It taught me something, which is a rule I use every day, at work, and on this board. Read, react, and DON'T write. If you're angry, don't write. Cool down, come back later, and if it still upsets you, wait even longer. If the next day, you've calmed down, but still dissapointed, write about why you are. At least it'll be rational, and avoid flames.

I'm glad to see Alan and Chessrock playing nice in this post I'd love to see more of it. You guys BOTH have a lot of great points. I want to read ALL of them. If everyone was singing the same tune, why would we keep tuning in? But I think most people hate sifting through pissing matches.

BTW, if you take a look at the ebay feedback for the musiciansadvocate guy, you won't see many negative feedbacks. But there's at least one in there that ensures that I won't be dealing with him.

 

[Treeline]

Checked it out

Over 2000 feedbacks; 14 neutrals, 5 negatives, all others positive. That doesn't make me nervous.

What I didn't like seeing was that every feedback other than positive generated a retaliation - that is, the customer's complaint generated a negative feedback against the customer's own ID. Usually, that was the only negative feedback any of these guys got, and people will avoid doing business with them as a result. That's a problem. Sounds to me like a good hard working ebay seller who makes an error in judgment now and then.

I'd be perfectly comfortable doing business based on the volume of positive feedbacks, but I simply can't afford a slap at my own ebay reputation, such as it is. I'll pass.

 

[Moreguitars]

I bought a couple of mics from them (on Ebay). No problems, shipped on time. I was a little mad when it took a while for them to leave me my positive feedback, but after a email it was taken care of. I'm sure they were just busy. I feel I got 2 mics at a good price, I was happy.

I then emailed and called them to quote/purchase a couple more mics. No response to either.......

I ended up buying them some place else. No problem. I would not have any problem making another Ebay purchase from them. I would probbably not shop there for purchases not on Ebay.

 

[MrZekeMan]

Re: Alan: Just curious . . .

The fact that you use a general recording discussion board as a means to answer people's questions about your products, yet request people to email and/or talk offline about recording issues puzzles me somewhat...

...Before I start in to yet even more bashing, please help me understand this (? ?)

He already helped everyone to understand this. Reread his post.

He said he doesn't do so because when he has in the past, his posts were received with no respect from some of the inexperienced Homerecording posters. We've seen this time and again. When Harvey Gerst first came to this board, if I remember right, he almost didn't stay because of all the crap that was flung his way.

Everyone has the right to deal with things in the way they see fit. If Alan decides not to post about those topics any more, that's his bidness.

I know If I was in his position, a manufacturer, I wouldn't post about other topics. I don't see much gain from it.

 

[MrZekeMan]

Re: We're getting a little anally retentive about this...

Fer Pete's sake, when are we going to learn not to squander the talent we have here?

ABSOLUTELY!!!

 

[Moreguitars]

This seems to be the major difference of opinion that gets you and I into so much trouble. You think it one way, and I seem to look at it another way. You say I am leveraging the internet for marketing purposes. I say I am helping people and asking questions to make sure they get the right choice of mic, or to ask them about products they need so we can build them. If that is leveraging the market for marketing, then so be it, but I just do not agree with that statement. I am not Spamming or selling.

Perhaps in the early days I made some mistakes by not knowing how these boards work, but it has been ages already since that happened. The majority of these members know this. I don't sell, Spam or market. You need to let this go.

Often it is the manner in which you write that to me is insulting. You may not see it but others do, so maybe you could try to understand that others take things differently. Sometimes you just seem to want to make insults and simply don't care. You must realize that it is this style of writing or behavior that starts the nasty rebuttals.

When that happens to me, I am defending myself Chessrock...not my company as your insults are directed towards me. I know you have not attacked our products or our company. As forTom Cram, he started a post on ProSound Web that went like...What it is about Alan Hyatt that you just hate or how I bug him. Yes, Tom and I don't see eye to eye. He only comments to me when he can throw in a negative comment. He does not ever chime in on the basis of the thread. So we continue to have this problem.

Now do you notice that I don't post other threads to try and let the anger linger on, or to try and defend my position? What purpose does it serve? Everyone knows that there are a few guys on the boards that like to personally attack me and others. They may think they have their reasons, but there are always two sides of a story, and you and the others are not always right, yet when there is an opportunity, you attack.

Just like this last incident where you were commenting on high end mic amps. I started my response with "I don't mean to sound rude", but.... Then I went on about the gear. You attacked me with weight joks, called me other names and generally were pretty foul about it, while all I was saying was, wait...whats up with this. I don't mean to be rude, but what gear do you own that you are talking about. Now maybe you saw that as as an attack. It was not, yet you took it that way, so I am sorry because while it was not writen that way, I can see how you might take it that way, but you need to look into a mirror and figure out how others take you as well. Again with all due respect, your not very cool on these boards when you come back and say you live for that! It may be funny, but I bet it misunderstood more than thought of as funny.

It is easy for a person on these boards to say things to a computer that they would not say face to face. All this does is breed shit on the boards and the usefulness ends up going nowhere.

Now I don't want you to think this is a bash Chessrock post...it is not! This is just a response to your post which hopefully will get you to look at the other side before you post back.

I made this kind of mistake to littledog on another thread and felt real bad after I got his meaning. I told him I was sorry, but this is what I am talking about. You don't know, I don't always know, and others don't always know what the meanings are behind the words.

Think about it....

As for Brad, I know Brad and do not do business with him, but maybe he misunderstood the words.....

Alan,

As a participant of about 6-7 bbs, I believe in the manufacture catagory of contributors you have been one of the best. Everyone and their brother should know where you are coming from, (you would have to put the best intrest of your company out there), but I have seen on many times when customers have problems with your products, (some that have got a little nasty), you have done a really good job trying to make it "right". I have often wondered why some of these people just did not call you first......

I take a lot of what the manufactures say with a grain of salt. I, at the present time do not own any studio Projects Gear. The reason is it is not available for my own ears. And I live in Southern Callifornia. Certainly there has got to be someone locally who stocks these (on a regular basis)?

But anyway, If I had found a Studio Project or any other products you sell to my needs I certainly would not hesitate to buy one. And a big reason would be because I know if I had any problem you would make it right. Your far to available and have too much exposure not to.

Now where in Orange County can I try a B-3?

 

[Treeline]

Here's someone who might know the answer...

Cal AV Trading Co.
2402 22nd Street • Santa Monica, CA 90405
attn Jeremy Stappard
voice (310) 396-2880
fax (310) 396-2980
email: jeremy@cal-av.net

 

[Tom Cram]

My ears are burning.

Alan, the thread I started on ProSoundWeb was comparing your Spamming to Radar's Spamming. It only got bad when you jumped in and yet again attacked me personally.

I don't want this to turn into another opportunity for you to go off on me again. So I'll just say this: I have a code of conduct that I try to follow when I'm working on the web. The fact that you apparently follow a different set of rules is not your problem, it's mine and mine alone. I've just had to adjust my thinking to understand that.

As "A Beginner's Mind" states: The novice sees endless possiblilites, the sage sees few.

I simply have to adjust my perception. Thank you for that.

Tom Cram
dbx Senior Technical Support
(801) 568-7530
tcram@dbxpro.com

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
-Thomas Jefferson-

 

[chessrock]

Re: Re: Alan: Just curious . . .

He said he doesn't do so because when he has in the past, his posts were received with no respect from some of the inexperienced Homerecording posters.

Join the club! Who here doesn't get disrespect from inexperienced posters from time to time?

I think when Alan first started posting here, he kinda' got off on the wrong foot, so people were mostly suspicious of his intentions. I think it's a little different story now. I also think we have a much more established base of knowlege here, as well. Surely, most of us can identify by now those who's deaf ears our advice/info will fall on and those who will benefit.

To me, this isn't a very good excuse. It's like going to a dinner party and not bringing anything along with you . . . not even a bottle of wine, because last year someone complained that your Merlot was too dry.

We've seen this time and again. When Harvey Gerst first came to this board, if I remember right, he almost didn't stay because of all the crap that was flung his way.

When you consider the ratio of Harvey praise/worship posts to Harvey bashing posts, I'd say we'd be somewhere around a 10,000 to 1 ratio, and I don't recall a time it's been any different.

I know If I was in his position, a manufacturer, I wouldn't post about other topics. I don't see much gain from it.

How about the respect of long-time members? It's just like my bottle of wine to the dinner party analogy. I could very easily just show up, eat some roast and green bean casserole, and not bring a bottle of wine . . . and justify it all by saying "What have I to gain by it?"

Or I could just show up to a party and hit on every chick there, and not even bring/invite any chicks myself. If everyone did that, it would be what we Chicagoans refer to as a sausage fest.

If that's your take on things, then fine, but don't be surprized if some of the guests criticize you for it or don't invite you back next year.

 

[MrZekeMan]

Re: Re: Re: Alan: Just curious . . .

Join the club! Who here doesn't get disrespect from inexperienced posters from time to time?

I think when Alan first started posting here, he kinda' got off on the wrong foot, so people were mostly suspicious of his intentions. I think it's a little different story now. I also think we have a much more established base of knowlege here, as well. Surely, most of us can identify by now those who's deaf ears our advice/info will fall on and those who will benefit.

To me, this isn't a very good excuse. It's like going to a dinner party and not bringing anything along with you . . . not even a bottle of wine, because last year someone complained that your Merlot was too dry.

Well your illustration might not spell out the situation accurately. It would be more like someone taking your bottle of wine out of your hand, and breaking it over your head. You might not be inclined to bring another bottle of wine with you when you come around again. Nevertheless, it is your decision whether to bring more wine, or not. It's up to Alan to decide whether or not to bring more wine based upon the way his last bottle was received here.

When you consider the ratio of Harvey praise/worship posts to Harvey bashing posts, I'd say we'd be somewhere around a 10,000 to 1 ratio, and I don't recall a time it's been any different.

That is because Harvey decided to keep posting through the foray. You may not remember it, but my recollection was that he was not received with the respect he deserved when he first started posting here. It certainly wasn't 10,000 to 1 intitially.

Whether Alan decides to work through it, or not bother with it, is his call to make. It's not yours, and it's not mine. This particular board has had a reputation of offending and running off pros. At least he's still here. I look at him as an asset, even if all he chooses to do is offer support, give information about his products, and get input for future products. I'm sure there are those that aren't satisfied with that and would like to run him off. Not me.

How about the respect of long-time members?

No offense intended, but you overestimate your value. I've been a member 5 months longer than you, does that mean my respect, and the earning of it, is more valuable than yours? Give me a break.

It's just like my bottle of wine to the dinner party analogy.

No it's not. That's a poor analogy.

I could very easily just show up, eat some roast and green bean casserole, and not bring a bottle of wine . . . and justify it all by saying "What have I to gain by it?"

"What do I have to gain by it?"...

Oh yea, stitches in the head, I think I'll bring another bottle.

Alan is not like someone showing up at a dinner party empty handed and eating the food. He is like a caterer showing up at a dinner party. Both parties are benefitting. The caterer is making money by selling his products. The dinner party is benefitting by having a product supplied to them that they are in need of. I guess it's up to the caterer to decide if he want's to provide free liquor to he party.

This of course isn't a perfect analogy either, because we aren't talking about either a dinner party, or a catered affair. But I think my analogy fits the circumstances of the topic at hand better than yours. You would have it that Alan is not providing anything here, only showing up to take and then leave, like a greedy party guest showing up to gorge himself, and leave. Not fair.

Or I could just show up to a party and hit on every chick there, and not even bring/invite any chicks myself. If everyone did that, it would be what we Chicagoans refer to as a sausage fest.

More unfair analogies.

If that's your take on things, then fine, but don't be surprized if some of the guests criticize you for it or don't invite you back next year.

The guests of a dinner party aren't the ones that do the inviting. The host is. Apparantly the moderator of the board, the host, has no problem with Alan being here.

Taylor

 

[ozraves]

My only complaint with homerecording.com's bbs is a thread like this one which just rehashes a bunch of mean-spirited crap over and over again. I would have thought this thread would have been purged long ago.

 

[chessrock]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Alan: Just curious . . .

Good point, but generally you do have to earn respect first, which Harvey did in very short time.

No offense intended, but you overestimate your value. I've been a member 5 months longer than you, does that mean my respect, and the earning of it, is more valuable than yours?

I'm refering mostly to guys like Crawdad, who most certainly has my respect, and he should have yours and if he doesn't then you don't have mine. And that's not to say that Crawdad doesn't respect Alan or that I don't respect you. I'm sure he does, but I also believe that Crawdad and peole like him would respect Alan more were he to contribute more.

The guests of a dinner party aren't the ones that do the inviting. The host is. Apparantly the moderator of the board, the host, has no problem with Alan being here.

I understand your analogy, and it's a pretty good one. The only flaw is that the moderator really can't be likened to a host. The moderator never invited any of us here. And it's not his duty to pass judgement on who should/shouldn't be here. He's more like a hired security guard (only without pay ) to keep watch, make sure no one drinks too much or gets out of hand, etc.

A better analogy would be that of a party that's open to the public. There are no hard and fast rules as to what everyone must contribute . . . no one is keeping score, but you still have to be careful how you behave or people might talk negative about you. Similarly, if you choose to do things that some may view as controversial, you should expect that some may love you for it and others might not.

And just as with any social situation, respect isn't universally handed out, and there will always be those who may not give it out no matter how hard you try to earn it.

That doesn't mean you should stop trying. And it certainly doesn't negate the respect you did receive from the others, but again, that's just my opinion.

 

[alanhyatt]

[/i]The best analogy I can think of: When I post a song in the MP3 clinic, I realize, accept and understand that I am putting it out there for the public to criticize. A lot of times, it's going to be negative. And it's tough to swallow at times, but ultimately, the negative stuff is very beneficial to us.

I suppose I could hand my stuff to my girlfriend or my dad, and they'll build my ego up and tell me it's brilliant, but ultimately I'm not going to get any better that way.

[/B]

I guess I am different. I never told my son when he struck out in Little League that he sucked at baseball, and I do not like to trash a guy for liking one mic over another, or if his song does suck. That does not build up any ego. Encouragement comes with boosting ones ego rather than destroy it. I can always come to terms to find words to tell someone that his song was not bad, but it needs work. This way, I don't discourage them for ever wanting to write or post an MP3 again.

One can criticize without destroying ones excitement or ego. All you have to do is choose the words carefully. I am sorry but I just do not buy into your thought process on this. I am not bashing, merely disagreeing. I was not raised that way, so on this point we are nowhere in line.

As for yoiur comment,"You may think I'm insulting towards you, when in fact I'm trying to help you understand a few things. Well, I do think you are insulting me. This why I say you have to look at how other perceive you as well. What can I say, this is how I feel. Maybe others feel different, but this is how I perceive you. Like it or not, this is how it is. So, if you expect me to just take any stong words from you as ego building, it ain't gonna happen. You will have to find a way as I will to make sure we understand each other.

Yes, I have chosen a profession where I put out a product, and I do make myself a visible spokesperson for that product. I do understand and accept what comes with that responsibility. Yes, people will make comments about me and my products. I have learned how to deal with it in stride (like a man), however it is when things get nasty, and I do not start the nasty comments that gets me pissed of. There is just no need to get nasty on these boards. We should all be allowed our opinions without insulting each other is all I am saying. Lets talk about the gear and make the new year a better one.

Lets stop the fighting. We have enough fighting overseas to worry about fighting on these boards over gear. It all good and there are all different levels of use and experience here. Lets encourage all of them istead of bashing them when one of them makes a comment on a piece of gear.

2003 should be a good year. Lets all make it good.

 

[alanhyatt]

I simply have to adjust my perception. Thank you for that.

Tom Cram
dbx Senior Technical Support
(801) 568-7530
tcram@dbxpro.com

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
-Thomas Jefferson-

Tom,

I guess we are all different. I will say I am sorry for our differences. Lets smoke the peace pipe and move forward for 2003. 2002 has been a interesting year and we have all learned a good deal about each other. Now it is time to respect each other. I know you and I can do better.....

Peace.....

 

[alanhyatt]

My only complaint with homerecording.com's bbs is a thread like this one which just rehashes a bunch of mean-spirited crap over and over again. I would have thought this thread would have been purged long ago.

We are getting to it. A few more things need to be said, but I think it will all be worth it. Hang in there partner....