Mixing to tape from DAW?

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Also, does anyone know if I can pick up a cheap tube pre amp, run that on my 57 and then plug in ANOTHER pre amp to a different channel with phantom power for a condenser? I need something to drive my 57 really badly, maybe I'll just stick with the onboard pre amp if I can't find something within reason...

Yes you can run two different pres to two different channels on the 424. The pres on the 424 aren't bad, though, so you may want to try the 57 through them first before you go buying a pre. If you're satisfied with the onboard pres, you could always just get a phantom power supply for $20 or so to power a condenser mic.
 
Yes you can run two different pres to two different channels on the 424. The pres on the 424 aren't bad, though, so you may want to try the 57 through them first before you go buying a pre. If you're satisfied with the onboard pres, you could always just get a phantom power supply for $20 or so to power a condenser mic.

Perfect! Thank you. And just ONE final question. I am a little misinformed about actual tape lengths and stuff like that. I am curious if I need to buy high bias's for everything, or only for when I am recording the takes, not just practicing. I can get 5 for $33 which I see is the standard, but maybe I should get cheap tapes to start practicing the 4 track with and then use the Maxell 60mins for when I really want to record? Or is the learning curve so slim that I can just instantly pop on some Maxell's.

If I should practice first, I am going to buy some TDK SM60 High Bias Tapes for 2.99 a pop. It says 60 min, 30 min, 15 min on the description.

Since I only plan on mixing to DAW and currently have a total of about 4 songs to record that are around 3 minutes in length each, how many tapes will I need to record with? I heard that bouncing tracks won't take up length, so like in theory, if I had 9 3-minute tracks (rhythm, vox, overdubs, etc), I would only be taking up 3 minutes? Or would that be 27? A little confused here... Thanks so much.
 
Perfect! Thank you. And just ONE final question. I am a little misinformed about actual tape lengths and stuff like that. I am curious if I need to buy high bias's for everything, or only for when I am recording the takes, not just practicing. I can get 5 for $33 which I see is the standard, but maybe I should get cheap tapes to start practicing the 4 track with and then use the Maxell 60mins for when I really want to record? Or is the learning curve so slim that I can just instantly pop on some Maxell's.

If I should practice first, I am going to buy some TDK SM60 High Bias Tapes for 2.99 a pop. It says 60 min, 30 min, 15 min on the description.

Since I only plan on mixing to DAW and currently have a total of about 4 songs to record that are around 3 minutes in length each, how many tapes will I need to record with? I heard that bouncing tracks won't take up length, so like in theory, if I had 9 3-minute tracks (rhythm, vox, overdubs, etc), I would only be taking up 3 minutes? Or would that be 27? A little confused here... Thanks so much.

There's a good bit about this in the 424 manual. Basically, if you're running the 424 on high speed, which you should for best fidelity, then you're only going to get 1/4 of the time written on the cassette. So if you're using a 60 minute cassette, you'll get about 15 minutes to work with on one tape. It doesn't matter how many tracks you record or how many times you bounce.

The reason is that, first of all, you're only recording on one side of the tape with your 4-track. The minutes shown on the tape include side B as well. So a 60 minute tape is really 30 minutes on side A and 30 on side B.

Secondly, you're recording at high speed, which is twice the normal cassette speed. So your 30 minute side gets halved to 15 minutes.

Regarding the learning curve, it will take a bit of practice to get your skills up to snuff, so it wouldn't be a bad idea to get a practice tape or two. I wouldn't get more than 2 though.

The 424 mkIII is a great machine. My wife and I recorded this tune (Eyes on Fire) on that exact machine using an Oktava MC 012 small diaphragm condenser running through an M-audio DMP3 preamp.



Oh, wait a minute! No, that wasn't the 424 mkIII; that was the 414 mkII.

This song (After the Goldrush) was done on the 424 mkIII:
 

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There's a good bit about this in the 424 manual. Basically, if you're running the 424 on high speed, which you should for best fidelity, then you're only going to get 1/4 of the time written on the cassette. So if you're using a 60 minute cassette, you'll get about 15 minutes to work with on one tape. It doesn't matter how many tracks you record or how many times you bounce.

The reason is that, first of all, you're only recording on one side of the tape with your 4-track. The minutes shown on the tape include side B as well. So a 60 minute tape is really 30 minutes on side A and 30 on side B.

Secondly, you're recording at high speed, which is twice the normal cassette speed. So your 30 minute side gets halved to 15 minutes.

Regarding the learning curve, it will take a bit of practice to get your skills up to snuff, so it wouldn't be a bad idea to get a practice tape or two. I wouldn't get more than 2 though.

The 424 mkIII is a great machine. My wife and I recorded this tune (Eyes on Fire) on that exact machine using an Oktava MC 012 small diaphragm condenser running through an M-audio DMP3 preamp.



Oh, wait a minute! No, that wasn't the 424 mkIII; that was the 414 mkII.

This song (After the Goldrush) was done on the 424 mkIII:

I can't believe this is you... I heard Eyes on Fire by you about 3 weeks ago out of pure coincidence. I must have come across your post with it while looking up analog stuff. I literally kept the link to this song on my tabs for like 3 days.... I love this man!! This was one of the things that really pushed me to get a 4-track, seriously.. What'd ya mix it in?

So would you recommend getting 5 of the Maxell's for $32? They come in a pack, but if I understand what you're saying, in theory I only need like 1 since my songs will come out to like 20 minutes in total (for now). Any suggestions for cheap practice tape? I assume it doesn't have to be high bias or type 2?
 
I can't believe this is you... I heard Eyes on Fire by you about 3 weeks ago out of pure coincidence. I must have come across your post with it while looking up analog stuff. I literally kept the link to this song on my tabs for like 3 days.... I love this man!! This was one of the things that really pushed me to get a 4-track, seriously.. What'd ya mix it in?

So would you recommend getting 5 of the Maxell's for $32? They come in a pack, but if I understand what you're saying, in theory I only need like 1 since my songs will come out to like 20 minutes in total (for now). Any suggestions for cheap practice tape? I assume it doesn't have to be high bias or type 2?

Thanks. I'm glad I was able to help with your decision to get a 4-track. Those things are so often dismissed by so many because of their alleged "poor quality." But I think if you pair them with good gear, good musicianship, and good recording skills, they can sound pretty darn nice.

I mixed "Eyes on Fire" on the 424 using an Alesis Nanoverb for the reverb (the only outboard processor I had at the time---I have more now :) ). I just recorded it to my DAW (either Reaper or Tracktion---can't remember) because I don't yet have a 1/4" 2 track R2R. Then in the DAW I used a mastering plug-in just to try to give it a little extra sheen.

Somewhere in another thread is a play-by-play rundown of the whole process (tracking and all). I'm sure you could find it if you search "Eyes on Fire."

Oh, nevermind; I found it. (In case you're interested):

Recorded in my basement studio. It's a pretty decent size room (app. 26x16) with concrete floor, and it's been treated with absorptive panels and bass traps that I built with either Owens 703 or mineral wool. It's set up kind of like the "dead end/live end" situation, with the mixing desk in the dead end.

The signal chain was the same for every track recorded:

one Octava MC-012 (small diaphragham condenser)
---> M-audio DMP3 mic pre
---> old DOD rackmount R-825 compressor (actually a pretty decent compressor, back when DOD made decent stuff)
---> Tascam 414

Acoustic: Alli's Martin - It's a DXM I think? It's the low end Martin with no binding or inlays or anything, but I think it's still a nice-sounding guitar

Reverb: Alesis Nanoverb


Track 1: me on acoustic, her lead vocal, and my harmony vocal all at once. That was actually all I planned on doing, just to demonstrate the quality. But we liked the vibe so much, we decided to flesh it out.

Track 2: Alli overdubbed low vocal harmony (that's her doubling with the low "AH" melody in the intro, not me --- my vocals don't come in until "I'm taking it slow"), and I played a hand-made shaker (beads in a medicine bottle). I backed off the mic a good bit for the shaker.

Track 3: Alli overdubbed a few lead vocal doubles in some spots and added one of the countermelody "AHs" in the second chorus (I guess you'd call it), and I played the organ solo. For the organ sound, I ran through Mackie Tracktion on my computer in order to access a synth plug-in called "Lazy Snake" (which is freeware) and sent the monitor out to the 414 direct. This was the only thing recorded direct.

Track 4: Alli overdubbed high vocal harmony and doubled the "AH" countermelody. After that, I overdubbed the "xylo-pupofone," which is my 11-month-old son's toy xylophone (shaped like a puppy!) to double/complement the organ solo.

The pupofone was a jumbled affair though, because it only has 6 notes: scale steps 1-6 in the key of C (C D E F G A). But the song was in C minor. So, I sped up the 414 a whole step so it sounded in D minor. Then I was able to play the pupofone as the first five notes of a D minor scale (D E F G A) with an extra low b7 note (C). That limitation of notes greatly influenced what I chose to play.

Overdubbing this part made me realize how rusty I was on my 4-track recording chops! I accidentally erased the very beginning of Alli's harmony on the final "AH" melody outro bit. I was overdubbing the pupofone by myself, and I didn't give myself time enough to get back and push stop! You can hear it in the right speaker if you listen for it. After the organ solo, her "AH" harmony doesn't come in until the second note or so. ooops!

I mixed down into Tracktion on my cpu. The only thing I added after that was a mastering plug-in, which did help to add a bit of sparkle that wasn't present on the original recording.

That's pretty much the lowdown. I did the best I could on the engineering end, but truth be told, it wouldn't have sounded nearly as nice if it wasn't for my wive's beautiful vocals. She really makes the song.



I'd go ahead and get the pack of Maxells assuming that you're not super-strapped financially or anything. That way, you'll have extras when you're ready to record more songs. And yes you can use a normal bias tape for practice. They still sell them at a few stores around me like Best Buy, Walgreens/CVS, and maybe even Walmart, so I'd try there. It doesn't really even matter. Something like this from Best Buy would be perfectly fine for practice:

Maxell - UR Type I Audio Cassette - 108510
 
Just to throw in my two cents... as an "old school" recording guy I can really appreciate yor interest and curiosity re: analog recording. I do have to say however that you would be much better served by purchasing a reel to reel of some kind rather than spending a lot more time and money with your cassette machine. Whatever additional "tape saturation" or other analog qualities you seek by going from tape to DAW and back again or whatever is honestly a waste of time due to the signal degredation involved in any cassette operation, let alone a 4 track cassette. However, if you're just using the cassette/ DAW process as a learning tool to move on to reel to reel, then by all means carry on!
 
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