Mixing to tape from DAW?

[thefanbelow]

Hey everyone, I am awaiting a Tascam 424 mkIII in the mail and just had a question.

I want to record to tape and then transfer to my DAW to mix and maybe add barely some stuff, but have heard about artists who then transfer it BACK to tape for either mastering or just burning it to a CD.

I'm new to this so that may have made no sense, but is there a way to do this? I'm trying to preserve the analog sound/feel as much as possible and even though transferring it to my DAW I'm sure will remove some of the feel, maybe putting it back on the Tascam is the way to enrich it again? Can anyone aware me on how to do this and if my intentions are misguided

 

[miroslav]

If you mean just transfering the mixed stereo DAW file to tape...it's no big deal, just connect a stereo pair from your DAW/converters out to the tape deck and record on the tape.
Of course, you then have to transfer it back again to the DAW to create a CD.

You should try it both ways...
Transfering back to tape from the DAW, and back to the DAW again...or just leaving it the DAW.
Not sure how much you will gain with just that transfer back to tape...it might be what you like, then again it might not.

 

[thefanbelow]

If you mean just transfering the mixed stereo DAW file to tape...it's no big deal, just connect a stereo pair from your DAW/converters out to the tape deck and record on the tape.
Of course, you then have to transfer it back again to the DAW to create a CD.

You should try it both ways...
Transfering back to tape from the DAW, and back to the DAW again...or just leaving it the DAW.
Not sure how much you will gain with just that transfer back to tape...it might be what you like, then again it might not.

Well I mean transferring the recording from tape to my DAW (for more mixing) then BACK to my tape (I don't even know what this would accomplish.. but I hope it would restore some analog sound). Basically I am trying to figure out how I can mix my stuff on a Tascam after recording. Do I need an external mixer? I'm new to this.

 

[miroslav]

Mmmmm...your 424 MKIII is a combination mixer/recorder....so you don't really need an another mixer.

Will going tape-->DAW-->tape--->DAW/CD "put back" some analog sound...?
You really are going to have to try that and see what it sounds like.
What's the reason you want to go to the DAW...if you want to mix on the tape? To do edits?

What kind of DAW interface do you have...how many channels is it? That will dictate how many tracks you can bring back from the DAW to the TASCAM...if you plan on mixing on the TASCAM. Just not sure what your exact SOP is going to be...?...it will make a difference in what you are trying to do and what you can do with that setup.

If you track to tape, you've already captured your analog sound...it's not necessarily lost with the transfer to DAW, unless you do a lot of digital processing in the DAW.

 

[thefanbelow]

Mmmmm...your 424 MKIII is a combination mixer/recorder....so you don't really need an another mixer.

Will going tape-->DAW-->tape--->DAW/CD "put back" some analog sound...?
You really are going to have to try that and see what it sounds like.
What's the reason you want to go to the DAW...if you want to mix on the tape? To do edits?

What kind of DAW interface do you have...how many channels is it? That will dictate how many tracks you can bring back from the DAW to the TASCAM...if you plan on mixing on the TASCAM. Just not sure what your exact SOP is going to be...?...it will make a difference in what you are trying to do and what you can do with that setup.

If you track to tape, you've already captured your analog sound...it's not necessarily lost with the transfer to DAW, unless you do a lot of digital processing in the DAW.

I use Garage Band as my DAW and currently have a M-Audio Mobile Pre with 2 mic channels and the option to do 2 line-ins. I believe I will need more to run all 4 tracks in at once? I would like to bring it to digital because frankly I have 0 idea how to mix on a Tascam, let alone bring the song to a hard copy like on a CD so I can transfer it online. Plus, I like that I have a lot more settings on my DAW so if my songs need I can add things that maybe I can't get on the tape. If it matters, I also have a original Tascam 424 porta studio, if maybe I can dump tracks on there as well to clear up space? I'm really new to this as you can tell

 

[mixsit]

...currently have a M-Audio Mobile Pre with 2 mic channels and the option to do 2 line-ins. I believe I will need more to run all 4 tracks in at once? ..

There is a possible workaround and that would be to record a click accross all four tracks ahead of the song, record two tracks in a first pass to the daw. Repeat with the second pair, then slide one pair to align with the other. If the tape speed doesn't drift too far by the end of a song.. youre in.

an add.. Don't split' pairs accross something stereo like a a kit overhead- almost any drift there would be a no-go. Otherwise even if normal tracks drift a bit you also have the option to split one of the pair in the middle (where ever it starts so sound off) and slide that back into place again.

 

[thefanbelow]

There is a possible workaround and that would be to record a click accross all four tracks ahead of the song, record two tracks in a first pass to the daw. Repeat with the second pair, then slide one pair to align with the other. If the tape speed doesn't drift too far by the end of a song.. youre in.

an add.. Don't split' pairs accross something stereo like a a kit overhead- almost any drift there would be a no-go. Otherwise even if normal tracks drift a bit you also have the option to split one of the pair in the middle (where ever it starts so sound off) and slide that back into place again.

That seems definitely viable because I am jsut recording myself and an acoustic so I record it in parts and overdub anyway. What do you mean though by recording a click across all four tracks? If you mean a click track I'm a little confused at how I would, and why I would do that (not meant to be insulting, I literally have no idea)

 

[mixsit]

Just a tic', a sharp spike to visually align to in the daw.

 

[leddy]

Hey everyone, I am awaiting a Tascam 424 mkIII in the mail and just had a question.

I want to record to tape and then transfer to my DAW to mix and maybe add barely some stuff, but have heard about artists who then transfer it BACK to tape for either mastering or just burning it to a CD.

I'm new to this so that may have made no sense, but is there a way to do this? I'm trying to preserve the analog sound/feel as much as possible and even though transferring it to my DAW I'm sure will remove some of the feel, maybe putting it back on the Tascam is the way to enrich it again? Can anyone aware me on how to do this and if my intentions are misguided

You don't want to hit the cassette twice. Record it on the 424 and either mix it to the DAW, or import the tracks and mix it in the DAW. Once it's in the computer, leave it there. Adding two conversions (D/A out and A/D in) with another pass on a cassette in between is not going to do anything positive to the fidelity.

 

[miroslav]

You don't want to hit the cassette twice. Record it on the 424 and either mix it to the DAW, or import the tracks and mix it in the DAW. Once it's in the computer, leave it there. Adding two conversions (D/A out and A/D in) with another pass on a cassette in between is not going to do anything positive to the fidelity.

I didn't want to be too blunt... ...that's why I said he should try and and decide for himself...but I agree with you leddy.
Not much analog goodness can be gotten from a cassette to begin with...hitting it it twice with the same tracks won't make it twice as good.

If I had that rig and wanted to do more than 4 tracks...I would do like mixsit, and drop an 8 count lead in click on one of the tracks....then lay down my rhythm tracks to the cassette. Maybe a pair for drums (or one for drums), bass and 1-2 rhythm guitars.
Dump all 4 tracks into the DAW....*and then from the cassette, also submix them to a single track of the cassette deck*. Your deck can do this....it's called bouncing to one track.
Now you have the original 4 tracks in the DAW as a group, and also on one track of the cassette deck as a submix.
Then record your vocals/leads to the cassette deck on the three empty tracks, using the sub-mixed track as your guide.
Dump all of those into the DAW (submix track too).

Now, you have the first 4 tracks (with the 8-count click lead in)...and you have the second 4 tracks (sub-mix, plus vocals/leads), and they also have the 8-count click lead in.
You use the clicks of the first 4 tracks to line up with clicks of the second 4 tracks.
Just group each set of tracks together in the DAW so when you slide them, you are moving all 4 at once.
Align the second group the the first.

Yes, if there was a little tape drift, the second 4 may drift relative to the first 4 tracks...BUT, they are leads...so you can cut up those tracks and move the pieces around to suit the rhythm of the first 4 tracks.
If you want to go back to the cassette deck for 4 more...you still have the one track sub-mix of the original 4 as your guide...just repeat the process to the three other tracks.
When you are done with all your tracking and dumping and aligning....just get rid of all the sub-mix tracks in the DAW, and then do your final/full mix in the DAW...forget coming back out to the cassette.

Make sense....?

 

[thefanbelow]

I didn't want to be too blunt... ...that's why I said he should try and and decide for himself...but I agree with you leddy.
Not much analog goodness can be gotten from a cassette to begin with...hitting it it twice with the same tracks won't make it twice as good.

If I had that rig and wanted to do more than 4 tracks...I would do like mixsit, and drop an 8 count lead in click on one of the tracks....then lay down my rhythm tracks to the cassette. Maybe a pair for drums (or one for drums), bass and 1-2 rhythm guitars.
Dump all 4 tracks into the DAW....*and then from the cassette, also submix them to a single track of the cassette deck*. Your deck can do this....it's called bouncing to one track.
Now you have the original 4 tracks in the DAW as a group, and also on one track of the cassette deck as a submix.
Then record your vocals/leads to the cassette deck on the three empty tracks, using the sub-mixed track as your guide.
Dump all of those into the DAW (submix track too).

Now, you have the first 4 tracks (with the 8-count click lead in)...and you have the second 4 tracks (sub-mix, plus vocals/leads), and they also have the 8-count click lead in.
You use the clicks of the first 4 tracks to line up with clicks of the second 4 tracks.
Just group each set of tracks together in the DAW so when you slide them, you are moving all 4 at once.
Align the second group the the first.

Yes, if there was a little tape drift, the second 4 may drift relative to the first 4 tracks...BUT, they are leads...so you can cut up those tracks and move the pieces around to suit the rhythm of the first 4 tracks.
If you want to go back to the cassette deck for 4 more...you still have the one track sub-mix of the original 4 as your guide...just repeat the process to the three other tracks.
When you are done with all your tracking and dumping and aligning....just get rid of all the sub-mix tracks in the DAW, and then do your final/full mix in the DAW...forget coming back out to the cassette.

Make sense....?

Honestly doesn't make much sense since I haven't tried my Tascam yet and I am such a beginner but it is incredibly helpful for when I start!

What do you mean by "mixsit?" And from what I get, I should wait 8 counts, then record my rhythm. Then do lead, vox, and etc? If I'm recording to my tape, at the most I'm going to have 2 mics on my acoustic, then lead guitar, then like 3 vocal overdubs. So what would be the best way to partition that? I'm sure your answer answered me and maybe I'm just so naive to the process that I won't get it till I start fiddling around...

 

[miroslav]

"mixsit" is the other member who was responding to you.

OK...so it sounds like you're not doing drums, bass and all that stuff...mostly an acoustic/vocal type thing?

If you are going to be dumping more than one group of tracks to the DAW...you need some reference to align them.
That's what the click track and 8-count lead in is for. Set it to the BPM tempo of the song.

You want to give yourself an 8 beat lead-in before you start recording your other stuff.
Record the click on one track.
Record your acoustic with two mics to two of the tracks.
Record your lead to the third.
1. Click
2. Lead
3. & 4. Acoustic

Dump that to the DAW.

Then also submix at the cassette deck, down to 1 track. Just record the Click, Lead and 1 of the Acoustic tracks...over the other acoustic track...and you end up with:
1.
2.
3.
4. Submix (Click, Acoustic & Lead)

Now, you use the submix as your guide, and record 3 tracks of vocals.

Dump all of that in the DAW and this is what you have after both dumps:

First dump group:
1. Click
2. Lead
3. & 4. Acoustic (stereo pair)

Second dump group:
5. Vocal
6. Vocal
7. Vocal
8. Submix

Use the Click of the first group and the Submix of the second group as your guide tracks. You align the second group to the first group with the 8-count click lead-in that is present in both the first group (Click track) and the second group (Submix track).

Making any more sense now...?

 

[mixsit]

..with a slight clarification, he only has two inputs on the s/c, so otherwise the same but moving the tape tracks over in pairs.

Also Thefanbelow, you may quickly discover some tracks sound just fine recorded straight into the daw.

 

[rayc]

I've recorded to 4 track & then upped the tracks into a DAW, added some additional ODs and taken advantage of the non destructive editing etc before mixing down to cassette.
It works.
It was easier once I had an interface that could do 4 tracks at once. before then it was much fiddlier but not horribly so.
The advantage of mixing back to tape isn't great in a 4 track cassette machine.
If it were a reel machine with faster speeds or a wider section of tape it'd be more useful.
The "TAPE" sound - saturation etc that is so much loved isn't really achievable on a portastudio.
Yes you can get pretty hot during tracking & that can sound good if done well.
I did a recording taking advantage of that aspect earlier this year.
Oh, don't forget to use the NR & High Speed options with the tape player when recording & playing back.
Just remember the more you shuttled from tape to tape the more likely the quality will "suffer".
On the gear you have the analogue qualities are mainly achieved in tracking.
With your gear mixing to a stereo track & then faux mastering of that stereo track all within the DAW are going to achieve better audio quality than mixing back to cassette tape.
Have a go though.
You may like the result.

 

[miroslav]

..with a slight clarification, he only has two inputs on the s/c, so otherwise the same but moving the tape tracks over in pairs.

Oh...I though someone said 4 inputs.
Well then , he can eventually get a second interface.

Thefanbelow...if you are going to do dump tracks back-n-forth, it helps to have an equal number...makes things easier.

 

[Tim Gillett]

Tracking (initial recording) doesnt have to be to tape. In fact for control over the amount of tape effect (warmth) you want to add it's much better to add the tape effect later, just as we normally add other effects later.

Also if I'm recording myself by myself I dont want to be worrying about whether the amount of "tape effect" is right, while I'm singing and playing. Too much risk I will get too much or not enough. Understand that it's not uniform. The amount of tape distortion (warmth) is very dependent on tape recording level.

Track to the DAW and if you want some tape effect later, send it out to the tape machine, then back into the DAW as a tape playback.

Also, analog tape and digital audio are not "opposites" which can neutralize each other.

Essentially digital adds no effect of its own.

Analog tape can get reasonably close to not adding audible effect, but if you record levels high it will add harmonic distortion (warmth), which can sometimes be nice and sometimes not so nice.

Recording from analog tape to your DAW will not destroy any tape distortion (warmth) you've created. It will preserve it.

 

[famous beagle]

Tracking (initial recording) doesnt have to be to tape. In fact for control over the amount of tape effect (warmth) you want to add it's much better to add the tape effect later, just as we normally add other effects later.

Track to the DAW and if you want some tape effect later, send it out to the tape machine, then back into the DAW as a tape playback.

This seems to utterly complicate things needlessly in my opinion. He's already stated he wants to record to tape. Why confuse him with another complication like "using the tape player as an effect?" That's certainly not as cut-and-dried as using a plug-in on his DAW. It'll require some creative routing that is not the easiest in the world to explain.

If he's just tracking his vocals and acoustic guitar, it's simple:

Record all 4 tracks on the 424

Since you only have two line inputs on your soundcard, you can't move all 4 tracks simultaneously to your DAW, so move tracks 1 and 2 in one pass and 3 and 4 in another.

Because the 424 will not play back at exactly the same speed each time, there will probably be a second or two of drift between tracks 1-2 and tracks 3-4 throughout the coarse of a 3-4 minute song. So you'll simply need to stretch (make the wav files slightly longer while retaining pitch) or squash (make them slightly shorter while retaining the pitch) the track pairs as necessary to get them to line up. I don't know if Garage Band does this, but if not, I'm sure there are plenty of free time stretch programs that'll do it.

Then you'll have your original 4 tracks aligned in the DAW where you can mix them or add a few additional overdubs if you want first. I guarantee you that's the easiest way to do what you said you want to do. To recap:

1 Record 4 tracks to 424
2 Transfer TKs 1 and 2 to DAW
3 Transfer TKs 3 and 4 to DAW
4 Time stretch as necessary to align those tracks
5 Add additional overdubs to DAW if needed
6 Mix down in DAW

That's it. Enjoy.

 

[leddy]

This seems to utterly complicate things needlessly in my opinion. He's already stated he wants to record to tape. Why confuse him with another complication like "using the tape player as an effect?" That's certainly not as cut-and-dried as using a plug-in on his DAW. It'll require some creative routing that is not the easiest in the world to explain.

That, plus the extra two conversions to get out of the box and back in.

I'm not one to argue that conversions make a massive difference. For example, I don't hear much difference between my Delta and high-end converters, but I do figure that the less you do to your audio the better it will sound.

 

[miroslav]

This seems to utterly complicate things needlessly in my opinion. He's already stated he wants to record to tape. Why confuse him with another complication like "using the tape player as an effect?" That's certainly not as cut-and-dried as using a plug-in on his DAW. It'll require some creative routing that is not the easiest in the world to explain.

Apart from that...there actually is a difference in going first to tape, then to DAW...VS...going to DAW, then to tape, then back to DAW.
It's pretty obvious....it's a question of one A/D conversion... VS...an A/D, then D/A, then A/D again.

Also, there are also folks who have said that tape compression (if that's what you are going for) will not sound the same when you hit the tape with a "live" signal as when you track first to a DAW and then hit the tape with the D/A signal.
It's something you can hear...in the transients.

I've encountered this when having to use some digital drum tracks, where I wanted to track the rest of the stuff in analog...so when dumping the digital tracks to tape, it was rather odd in how they hit the tape VS all the other "live" to tape tracks. The sound ended up being acceptable, but there certainly were differences.
I meant to actually do some specific tests after I saw this, as it was kinda weird to me...but as I said, having read what other people have said about going DAW--->tape...it made sense, so I didn't bother with doing any further tests.

Way back...when I first got into the DAW world and I had my tape decks, I asked the same question of a few people, and everyone said "tape first", so that's what I stuck with.
You CAN go the other way, it's not going to be horrible. There are times when I've dumped a single track back out to tape just to "color" it up some more...but for straight/initial tracking, I always hit tape first, then dump to DAW if I plan to do any digital editing.

The point where I do come back out to tape from the DAW is during final mixdown, but then, I'm bringing 24 individual channels out to the console and summing/mixing all in analog...so what hits the 2-track tape deck is a stereo mix...summed, processed and mixed all in analog.

It's best to try various SOPs with whatever rig you have, that way you can find what works and sounds best for your situation.

 

[thefanbelow]

"mixsit" is the other member who was responding to you.

OK...so it sounds like you're not doing drums, bass and all that stuff...mostly an acoustic/vocal type thing?

If you are going to be dumping more than one group of tracks to the DAW...you need some reference to align them.
That's what the click track and 8-count lead in is for. Set it to the BPM tempo of the song.

You want to give yourself an 8 beat lead-in before you start recording your other stuff.
Record the click on one track.
Record your acoustic with two mics to two of the tracks.
Record your lead to the third.
1. Click
2. Lead
3. & 4. Acoustic

Dump that to the DAW.

Then also submix at the cassette deck, down to 1 track. Just record the Click, Lead and 1 of the Acoustic tracks...over the other acoustic track...and you end up with:
1.
2.
3.
4. Submix (Click, Acoustic & Lead)

Now, you use the submix as your guide, and record 3 tracks of vocals.

Dump all of that in the DAW and this is what you have after both dumps:

First dump group:
1. Click
2. Lead
3. & 4. Acoustic (stereo pair)

Second dump group:
5. Vocal
6. Vocal
7. Vocal
8. Submix

Use the Click of the first group and the Submix of the second group as your guide tracks. You align the second group to the first group with the 8-count click lead-in that is present in both the first group (Click track) and the second group (Submix track).

Making any more sense now...?

That makes total sense. Just three questions if you would.

When you want me to record a click track to it, do you mean literally have a count that goes to 8? I didn't know portastudios could record click track's and I'm worried that the click would come up in my recording... I imagine it doesn't but could you just give me a little more clarification on that?

And after I dump my first set into the DAW, what is the point of redumping the submix again on round 2? Do I just delete it in the DAW when it goes there?

And should I be setting my EQ/reverbs and whatever on the Tascam before recording, after recording, or wait for it to hit the DAW?

Can't tell you how helpful you have been, thanks!!!