Lets talk Stereo recording

[Papanate]

This is just stream of conscious meanderings...

Record a mono track of guitar - clone it to another track - than EQ the second track put a small 3 ms time delay on and pan the two tracks hard left and hard right -
Is it stereo?

You record an Acoustic guitar witha SDC and LDC pointed at different places -place each on it's own track - is it a stereo recording or is it dual mono?

You record the same Acoustic guitar in a Mid Side configuration - going to one stereo track - what do you end up with?

You have reverb patched to a mono track - it goes to a bus- the Reverb is mono in - stereo out - is the reverb true stereo or dual mono?

I of course have my own ideas but am curious what the HomeRecording Cognoscenti say....

 

[rob aylestone]

I think in my head - and I totally align with asking the question - the M/S is the only 'real' stereo capture, the others are generating a stereo field, without that sound ever being in the room? Does that make sense?

 

[Steenamaroo]

That's one of those, ask ten people get ten answers.

I tend to refer to anything that creates or captures a deliberate left/right image from the same source, whether 'correct' or accurate or not, stereo.
I'm happy enough reaching for a stereo chorus pedal, or using a stereo reverb plugin.
I'm also happy enough calling x/y or spaced pair, or whatever, a stereo recording.

Complimentary microphones for tone isn't the same thing so "I recorded it with two microphones" works here,
and recording a source twice isn't the same thing so that's double-tracking.

Your clone and delay scenario is, to me, a stereo effect but 'effect' is important, since there's no attempt to recreate left/right information that happened.

People get in to debates about "true" or "real" stereo but I never see them follow it through.
If you're going to do that you need to take into account the playback system.
There's not much point simulating ear position with microphones if I'm listening on speakers.

Take mid/side, for example. Listening on headphones a 45degree left, or right, sound is completely absent in the other side.
That's pretty unnatural and wouldn't happen in person, but it also won't happen when listening on speakers.
The technique 'working' on speakers relies, in part, on the listeners acoustic environment, though, so is that better?
It gets complicated fast.

 

[RFR]

I think in my head - and I totally align with asking the question - the M/S is the only 'real' stereo capture, the others are generating a stereo field, without that sound ever being in the room? Does that make sense?

I get what you’re saying. Makes sense.

Don’t know about the scientific validity of my view on stereo, but here I go. You can just label it as opinion.

Stereo has a lot to do with your location to and distance from the source. Let’s take Pink Floyd’s Dark Side album. A very ‘stereo rich’ record. Especially with wearing headphones.

You can have an absolutely great stereo system and be in your listening room having a grand old time enjoying the stereo effects. The farther you get away from the source, the more it collapses to Mono.


You can be in Times Square in New York City. While in that crowd you might be experiencing 5.1 Dolby sound.

You get away from the masses all you have is a. Murmur of sound in Mono.


Anyway, my opinions and I’m sticking to em.

 

[RFR]

Another example hat might clarify what I was saying is a piano.

The pianist is sitting in the center. The low strings are on the left side and the high strings on the right. So the pianist being physically close to the strings and soundboard hears a left right stereo separation. As an audience member you’re hearing it in mono, as well as the reverb and reflections of the source. But the source isn’t in stereo. I’m just talking about the room and instrument not microphones.
Anyway enough babbling from me. Carry on.

 

[rob aylestone]

No - it's very on the ball. We bang on about stereo all the time, yet we are really struggling to decide what exactly it is. I think we all know .... sort of.
Blumlein Stereo - as a title in ads and as a technique always intrigued me, Firstly, he never even mentioned the word in his patent, and while people use it (I like it a lot) it's actually wrong. Two figure 8's at 90 degrees. Let's imagine a church. At the front is a string quartet. It is a nice church, with a nice sounding reverb. One mic pointing at the first violin on audience left, and the other pointing at the cello, right. That makes sense. Not much cello in the violin's channel, and not much violin in the cello's. Makes sense. On speakers or headphones in a darkened room, you can point pretty precisely at where those two people are. Nobody ever listens and then says, but the violin channel on the left appears to have the right hand side of the church's reverberation. The annoying phone that goes off, in your darkened room you point to it, but where you point is not where it was. The rear image is reversed. Nobody ever mentions this. Back at college we had one of those dummy foam heads with an omni mic in each ear hole. Perched on a mic stand, and fed to headphones it was weirdly exciting, but also where I learned how awful it is for people with hearing aids. noises and even gentle breeze messed it up completely. Then I realised that hearing involves the brain and just turning your head a tiny bit allows your brain to sort things out - the dummy head was capturing real stereo but the brain bit was missing. I tried Jeklin disks - but they were still very bland. I mentioned before my teenage experience with hard panned big band - with the brass vs reed do whap do whap thing. Its not real it's an effect.

We talk about pianos having width, and argue endlessly about mic positions, and then on stage they go up and downstage for visibiliy. The pianist never faces the audience or has their back to them, so in real terms it's got no width at all? The person playing it, plays for their own ears, but we never put mics there do we? Are two mics on an acoustic guitar creating stereo directional info, or are they just two tones blended together - the other day we had two mics mounted vertically? what is that actually doing?

There's a sample company in the UK that love the word 'splodge'. They even have a knob that adjusts the amount of it. Nobody knows what it is, exactly. Maybe splodge is just 'stereo'?

 

[DM60]

I've have stopped looking for true anything. I have a field of left/right. I have decided to mix for a pair of speakers the separate left and right channels. Then try to create a hearing space for the listener. Using the space for instruments, frequencies, effects, whatever the purpose. I think of it like how the masters of paintings created 3D in their paintings, when we know it is flat.

I am working with the illusion of something. Sometimes I want real, sometimes I want abstract. Sometimes I want flat. Stereo gives us that option.

 

[Papanate]

No - it's very on the ball. We bang on about stereo all the time, yet we are really struggling to decide what exactly it is. I think we all know .... sort of.
Blumlein Stereo - as a title in ads and as a technique always intrigued me, Firstly, he never even mentioned the word in his patent, and while people use it (I like it a lot) it's actually wrong. Two figure 8's at 90 degrees. Let's imagine a church. At the front is a string quartet. It is a nice church, with a nice sounding reverb. One mic pointing at the first violin on audience left, and the other pointing at the cello, right. That makes sense. Not much cello in the violin's channel, and not much violin in the cello's. Makes sense. On speakers or headphones in a darkened room, you can point pretty precisely at where those two people are. Nobody ever listens and then says, but the violin channel on the left appears to have the right hand side of the church's reverberation. The annoying phone that goes off, in your darkened room you point to it, but where you point is not where it was. The rear image is reversed. Nobody ever mentions this. Back at college we had one of those dummy foam heads with an omni mic in each ear hole. Perched on a mic stand, and fed to headphones it was weirdly exciting, but also where I learned how awful it is for people with hearing aids. noises and even gentle breeze messed it up completely. Then I realised that hearing involves the brain and just turning your head a tiny bit allows your brain to sort things out - the dummy head was capturing real stereo but the brain bit was missing. I tried Jeklin disks - but they were still very bland. I mentioned before my teenage experience with hard panned big band - with the brass vs reed do whap do whap thing. Its not real it's an effect.

We talk about pianos having width, and argue endlessly about mic positions, and then on stage they go up and downstage for visibiliy. The pianist never faces the audience or has their back to them, so in real terms it's got no width at all? The person playing it, plays for their own ears, but we never put mics there do we? Are two mics on an acoustic guitar creating stereo directional info, or are they just two tones blended together - the other day we had two mics mounted vertically? what is that actually doing?

There's a sample company in the UK that love the word 'splodge'. They even have a knob that adjusts the amount of it. Nobody knows what it is, exactly. Maybe splodge is just 'stereo'?

A piano with two microphones - one covering the slightly Midrange to high-range and the other covering slightly midrange to low range - and you recorded on to a stereo track left and right - that would be true stereo don't you think? - or maybe the only thing that can be truly stereo is playback?

 

[rob aylestone]

It wouldn't be mono - but would it just be like a guitar? Two mics blended? With my eyes closed, sitting at my own piano could I touch the string that was sounding. I tried and when I play the note I get close. When my wife played the note, I was far worse.

 

[Steenamaroo]

A piano with two microphones - one covering the slightly Midrange to high-range and the other covering slightly midrange to low range - and you recorded on to a stereo track left and right - that would be true stereo don't you think? - or maybe the only thing that can be truly stereo is playback?

It'd be an attempt to recreate the experience of the pianist, or someone close enough to hear that kind of separation, sure,
and if you're playing back on speakers with similar positioning then it's going to be pretty realistic sounding.

 

[Papanate]

It'd be an attempt to recreate the experience of the pianist, or someone close enough to hear that kind of separation, sure,
and if you're playing back on speakers with similar positioning then it's going to be pretty realistic sounding.

It wouldn't be what the pianist is hearing I don't think - you would have to use Omni Mics on Each side of the Head or two Condensers pointed at the piano on each side of the head - to hear what the audience hears I think you would have to Omni Mics at the position of the audience member - in both cases you would get a stereo sound - putting mics in the piano gives you two sources and essentially a stereo sound - but in all cases the mix would be stereo by defualt wouldnt it?

 

[TalismanRich]

I tend to look at stereo from the playback perspective, not the recording side. Placing some instruments in the correct relative position between the speakers is usually my goal. If you're doing close micing, there's not really any ambient space to deal with. If the guitarist is on the left, the keyboard on the right and the drums and bass in the middle, pan the instruments accordingly. If you're doing a studio recording where each person is doing it separately at different times, there really isn't much stereo to be had. How many instruments are actually wide enough to require stereo? That doesn't mean you can't fake it. Create positioning within the speakers via panning of mono sources. Add your reverb for ambience and you have a stereo final recording. Two channels, instruments with different placements. It's no more "wrong" than recording an orchestra in mono.

It's a different situation than trying to record a choir, orchestra, bluegrass quartet or chamber ensemble. There you have multiple sources in a wider positioning. If you're trying to recreate the space, including the ambience around it, then you use stereo techniques, be it ORTF, X/Y or MS.

 

[Steenamaroo]

It wouldn't be what the pianist is hearing I don't think - you would have to use Omni Mics on Each side of the Head

People get in to debates about "true" or "real" stereo but I never see them follow it through.
If you're going to do that you need to take into account the playback system.
There's not much point simulating ear position with microphones if I'm listening on speakers.

 

[Papanate]

@Steenamaroo People get in to debates about "true" or "real" stereo but I never see them follow it through.
If you're going to do that you need to take into account the playback system.
There's not much point simulating ear position with microphones if I'm listening on speakers.

Why wouldn't there be a point? It might not be the sound that people like - but it would interesting I think to hear the sound from the pianist point of view.

 

[Steenamaroo]

I'm not saying there's no point trying to simulate x, y or z.
I'm saying there's no point putting microphones where someone's ears would be if the listener is using speakers 3 feet away.
You're essentially putting two acoustic environments in to the chain.


If you're striving for realistic, accurate, true...whatever word,
then the playback system is as as important as the capture set up.

That's why I said your two close mic setup at a piano could be "an attempt to recreate the experience of the pianist".
The described microphone position, relative to the pianist, isn't that far off where nearfield monitors might be...

That said, these close microphones aren't going to pick up much of the acoustic environment but playing back on speakers the sound is going to interact with my environment.
So, to some extent, the final playback is how the piano sounds, from the perspective of the pianist, but in my room.

Microphones at the pianist ears is going to capture a much more accurate representation of the instrument and environment as the pianist heard it,
so then the most appropriate playback device would probably be headphones.
That's not without it's problems as, then, you lose the natural left/right bleed that the pianist would have heard.

I suppose every approach has its own compromises.

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

I'm not saying there's no point trying to simulate x, y or z.
I'm saying there's no point putting microphones where someone's ears would be if the listener is using speakers 3 feet away.
You're essentially putting two acoustic environments in to the chain.

that is a mistake, but i get what you are saying.

If you're striving for realistic, accurate, true...whatever word,
then the playback system is as as important as the capture set up.

Couldn't it be as simple as open or closed backed headphones? When it comes to critical listening, few options are better.

I suppose every approach has its own compromises.

My approach to basic recording hasn't changed. Track a sound with record. How it sounds in the room. With fx is fine. Get 3-4 tracks down. Smash each one with a limiter/compressor, so they can be mixed( brings out the bell like qualities). Mix them.

The DBX160 is great VCA. Has the negative ratios for ASMR close up noises, and making sound effects. You like 80's music, me too, this is that era.

 

[Steenamaroo]

that is a mistake, but i get what you are saying.

How so?

 

[Steenamaroo]

Couldn't it be as simple as open or closed backed headphones? When it comes to critical listening, few options are better.

Doesn't really make much difference.
There stereo image is still totally different to what you'd hear from speakers.

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

I am agreeing politely. Using a microphone in close proximity to the speaker 3 feet away is a mistake.

Should be nice to know, that somebody(me) is listening to what your saying and responding.

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

The stereo image is still totally different to what you'd hear from speakers.

true.