Just finished a cd . . .

  • Thread starter Thread starter Solafide
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Here is one arguement for God's existance.
Not a silver bullet, but I think is significant nun the less.

(I don't have time tonight to get into what I think is the best arguement, as it would take to long to write and I have to go to work very soon)

We know ther are only two possible causes of events in the universe:

1. Chance - random happenings, wind, motion, etc.

2. Inteligence - Beings with mind that intentionally use energy to accomplish a desired end.


We also know that the simpler an event is (for example a leaf falling from a tree) the more likely it is to be explained by chance, and the more complex something is (for example the creation of the pyramids - the more likely it is to have been accomplished by inteligence.


I'll give you an example:
If I were to have a hundred pennies lying on my desk, each with a number from one to a hundred (with the number only on one side of the penny), and I left them there setting on top of all the clutter. The odds of one of the pennies sliding off the “heap” by chance is relatively high. If I walked into my office and saw a penny on the floor and it had number one on it and it was laying number-side up. I would think that is quite a coincidence. The odds of this happening by chance are getting more remote but it still is more likely than (or at least more rational—why would someone bother doing this) it happening by intelligence. I would conclude that either my wife was cleaning and bumped the desk, or someone came in to give me something, or to look for something and with little encouragement the penny slid down the pile, onto the floor, and bounced luckily to rest number side up. This seems more likely than someone going through the trouble of getting a key to my office, finding the number one penny and placing it on the floor. If however I came in and found all one hundred pennies on the ground perfectly arrange in numeric order, number-side up, and then to top it off they were laid out in the shape of 100. I would never conclude that this was by chance. The more remote the chances of something happening by chance, the greater the odds of an occurrence being by intelligence. I know the odds of those pennies falling off the desk with no help, bouncing perfectly to land side up, and arranging themselves in the shape of 100, is almost not worth calculating. What would take intelligence five minutes to do, chance could spend 5 billion years and still not be started! The odds of it being by chance is remote, so the inverse is obvious, the odds of it happening by intelligence is so sure, that the thought of it happening by accident would not even cross my mind.


The odds of our present universe with its order and complexity is estimated by British mathematician and physicists Roger Penrose (who has worked with men like Steven Hawking), as being 1 in 10 to the 10th power to the 123rd.
If the probability of chance producing our current universe is so mind-bogglingly low, then the inverse is true. The odds of it happening by intelligence would be so high that we could say it 99.9(with trillions and trillions of 9s)% sure.

If I were a betting man I know which "ticket" I would rather buy!
 
Solafide said:
We know ther are only two possible causes of events in the universe:

1. Chance - random happenings, wind, motion, etc.

2. Inteligence - Beings with mind that intentionally use energy to accomplish a desired end.
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I believe that things happen for a reason. Not chance, nor the intent of another. The result of doing one thing is caused by another. This can be a long chain of events, predating man himself. What you think could be a random event is actually the result of millions of other events. A leaf falling on your head, for example. The leaf fell for a reason (strong wing, small animal knocked it, etc.). You were walking for a reason (go to your car, over to a lawnchair, etc.). The fact that it fell on your head is where these two separate events collide. While you could have just as easily walked a different path to your destination, you chose the one that led to the leaf falling on you. It could have been the most direct route, you had to maneuver around an object, etc. You can keep going deeper into all the "why"s but I think you get the idea. You can do the same with the leaf (wind, the speed at which it fell, etc.). The idea that I'm getting at is that this event (the leaf falling on your head) was meant to happen. There is no significance attached to it, it just happened that way. It is a scripted event, not a random one. Nobody adjusted anything with the intent of making it land on your head, it was entirely natural. It may seem coincidental that that leaf fell on your head, a small surface area compared to the much larger area of the ground. The history of what led the leaf to fall and the history of what led you to walk beneath the tree both led each object to the exact same location in space and time.

Sorry for the OT rant there. This is only a strong belief of mine, I do not claim that it is correct, nor am I saying it is the only cause of events.

As far as the songs go, they are well constructed. It does sound like you were trying to make the best of what equipment was used to track with, but you did a good job mixing it. Can't wait to hear what your new stuff is going to sound like.
 
Solafide said:
Absolutely not - I apologize if anything in my previous post led you or anyone else to that conclusion.

God did not create evil. let me come at this from a different angle.

Lets say you were the only person on the planet, now lets say you are the only thing that existed period - no universe, no nothing just you. What could you do that was wrong?

Obviously what ever you think what ever you do is right because you are the standard you are "good." As long as it is only you, there is no potential for sin (sin being anything that goes against your will). Evil is only possible if you create something that can oppose you, that can dissagree with you, that can dislike you, and even disbelieve in you. But if you do create a being with real choice and He really chooses to oppose you (i.e. sin) You cannot be held accountable, because it was not your choice - it was the choice of the free being you created. It is impossible for God to sin, it is impossible for God to creat evil (if he created something it was obviously because he wanted to so it could not be evil it would be good).
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You're right, that if I began everything, i "cannot be held accountable, because it was not" my choice, but God was all knowing, so knows everything that everyone would choose. He could have chosen tocreate only those who would be good and allow them to live their "free" lives(this could spawn a discussion on free-will and is it really free, but i'll leave that for later). Or he could have just chosen not to create like i sed and have only himself who he knows would not be evil. God, allegedly, created the rules which define good and evil, so if he were to break them and expect us still to keep them and think he is all-good, he is a hypocrite (imperfect behaviour).
 
Solafide said:
Here is one arguement for God's existance.
Not a silver bullet, but I think is significant nun the less.

(I don't have time tonight to get into what I think is the best arguement, as it would take to long to write and I have to go to work very soon)

We know ther are only two possible causes of events in the universe:

1. Chance - random happenings, wind, motion, etc.

2. Inteligence - Beings with mind that intentionally use energy to accomplish a desired end.


We also know that the simpler an event is (for example a leaf falling from a tree) the more likely it is to be explained by chance, and the more complex something is (for example the creation of the pyramids - the more likely it is to have been accomplished by inteligence.


I'll give you an example:
If I were to have a hundred pennies lying on my desk, each with a number from one to a hundred (with the number only on one side of the penny), and I left them there setting on top of all the clutter. The odds of one of the pennies sliding off the “heap” by chance is relatively high. If I walked into my office and saw a penny on the floor and it had number one on it and it was laying number-side up. I would think that is quite a coincidence. The odds of this happening by chance are getting more remote but it still is more likely than (or at least more rational—why would someone bother doing this) it happening by intelligence. I would conclude that either my wife was cleaning and bumped the desk, or someone came in to give me something, or to look for something and with little encouragement the penny slid down the pile, onto the floor, and bounced luckily to rest number side up. This seems more likely than someone going through the trouble of getting a key to my office, finding the number one penny and placing it on the floor. If however I came in and found all one hundred pennies on the ground perfectly arrange in numeric order, number-side up, and then to top it off they were laid out in the shape of 100. I would never conclude that this was by chance. The more remote the chances of something happening by chance, the greater the odds of an occurrence being by intelligence. I know the odds of those pennies falling off the desk with no help, bouncing perfectly to land side up, and arranging themselves in the shape of 100, is almost not worth calculating. What would take intelligence five minutes to do, chance could spend 5 billion years and still not be started! The odds of it being by chance is remote, so the inverse is obvious, the odds of it happening by intelligence is so sure, that the thought of it happening by accident would not even cross my mind.


The odds of our present universe with its order and complexity is estimated by British mathematician and physicists Roger Penrose (who has worked with men like Steven Hawking), as being 1 in 10 to the 10th power to the 123rd.
If the probability of chance producing our current universe is so mind-bogglingly low, then the inverse is true. The odds of it happening by intelligence would be so high that we could say it 99.9(with trillions and trillions of 9s)% sure.

If I were a betting man I know which "ticket" I would rather buy!
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That sounds a lot like the watchmaker argument, which states: if you found watch lying on a beach you would not think that it made naturally, but that it must have a maker, and that we are much more complicated than a watch, so we must conclude that we also must have a creator. But this argument is flawed, as by this logic, the watchmaker must also have a maker, so God must have a maker as he is so much more comple than us, and that creator must have a creator, and so on infinitely. There's much more chance that it happened naturally and by chance than an infinite number of beings each creating another.
 
That sounds a lot like the watchmaker argument, which states: if you found watch lying on a beach you would not think that it made naturally, but that it must have a maker, and that we are much more complicated than a watch, so we must conclude that we also must have a creator. But this argument is flawed, as by this logic, the watchmaker must also have a maker, so God must have a maker as he is so much more comple than us, and that creator must have a creator, and so on infinitely. There's much more chance that it happened naturally and by chance than an infinite number of beings each creating another.
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This is not at all the "watchmaker" arguement. This is soley an evidence for the existance of intelligence (i.e. God)

And by your familiarity with the watchmaker arguement I am sure you are aware that Theists do not believe in a God that had a begining. Such a god could not exist (if it did it would not be god, but rather the one that made it would be the true God)


Theists believe that God is an independent being (he needs nothing outside of Himself (as stated in Acts 17)), therefore he could not have a beginning, and cannot have an ending (who could take his life if it is totally selfsuficient and depends on no outside substances?)


Try to reread my arguement, understanding it is not only posible for God to not have a beginning it is the only way a "Creator of all things could exist."

We have relitively known varaibles. We know:
a. The universe exists.

b. There are only two causes of events (chance and inteligence)

c. We know (approximately) the odds of the universe comming together by chance (1 in 1 with more zeros after it then there are estimated particles in the universe!)

So we can simply do the math to conclude the odds of the universe happening through an intelligent agent (99.9 with more nines after it then there are particles in the universe % shure)


What that inteligence is like, is a whole other discussion. If I understand your responce correctly it is an attemp to sidetrack form the answer to the above equation, and ask another question (i.e) where did God come form so as to avoid dealling with the logical conclusion of the arguement.

No matter how you look at it to disbelieve in God is to believe in something that has only 1 chance in 1 to the 10th power to the 123rd power chance of being right.

again I am not at all comfortable with those odds.
 
Solafide said:
This is not at all the "watchmaker" arguement. This is soley an evidence for the existance of intelligence (i.e. God)

And by your familiarity with the watchmaker arguement I am sure you are aware that Theists do not believe in a God that had a begining. Such a god could not exist (if it did it would not be god, but rather the one that made it would be the true God)


Theists believe that God is an independent being (he needs nothing outside of Himself (as stated in Acts 17)), therefore he could not have a beginning, and cannot have an ending (who could take his life if it is totally selfsuficient and depends on no outside substances?)


Try to reread my arguement, understanding it is not only posible for God to not have a beginning it is the only way a "Creator of all things could exist."

We have relitively known varaibles. We know:
a. The universe exists.

b. There are only two causes of events (chance and inteligence)

c. We know (approximately) the odds of the universe comming together by chance (1 in 1 with more zeros after it then there are estimated particles in the universe!)

So we can simply do the math to conclude the odds of the universe happening through an intelligent agent (99.9 with more nines after it then there are particles in the universe % shure)


What that inteligence is like, is a whole other discussion. If I understand your responce correctly it is an attemp to sidetrack form the answer to the above equation, and ask another question (i.e) where did God come form so as to avoid dealling with the logical conclusion of the arguement.

No matter how you look at it to disbelieve in God is to believe in something that has only 1 chance in 1 to the 10th power to the 123rd power chance of being right.

again I am not at all comfortable with those odds.
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If you say that God does not have a beginning, why not say that there was no beginning and the universe has always eisted in some state. For to say this cuts out the middle man. Ohh and the watchmaker argument is very like your, stating that is extremely unlikely that it could happen by coinsidence so that there almost must be a creator. But, if the universe has always existed in some state then there is no need for a creator, as there is no beginning. Theists believe that God had no beginning, so therefore is it such a big leap to say that the universe had no beginning. You may say that science proves that the universe had a beginnig through the big bang theory, but the big bang may have happened due to the universe imploding on itself then exploding. This could have happened infinitely. There is an argument against this, that the universe is excellerating so therefore will not implode, but it could be that(and i just thought of this)the big bang happens which cause particles to fly off and collide causing other big bangs which cause particles to fly off and collide....and so on. There is nothing to prove that the universe had a beginning and necessitate an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, supernatural, and so on, god.
 
Solafide said:
nopoetic,

I'm sorry if my music offended you, I asure you that was not my intention in posting these songs.

I do have to say that somewhere along the line you have picked up some misinformation about Christianity (which is understandable as there is so much out there)

1. Christianity is not about "pleasing God" it is about all of God's effort to build into and drasticly change us for the better, so that we would infact care more about other people than we even do for ourselves.

For example James 1:27 sayes, " Pure and lasting religion in the sight of God our Father means that we must care for orphans and widows in their troubles, and refuse to let the world corrupt us."

I agree that "religion" in general teaches that we are to strive to please God, but the premise of Christianity is that this is a useless endever, we have nothing to offer God that is not: a.) already His, or b.) not up to his standards of perfection. Therefore it is God that is working and "striving" to provide us a way, and to cahnge us from the inside out to be more caring and less selfish.




I would be interested to know where you got this information. The reality is that Judiasm (Which is the root of Christianity) came out of a time in history where there was worship of many "demanding" gods. Archialogical evidence shows religion that included extremes of human sacrifice in attempts to please their gods. I would hardly call that unconditional love!

In contrast to the nations around Israel that would sacrifice their children and phisically harm themselves inan attempt to please God and win His favor, God said this about sacrifice in Isaiah 1:

I am sick of your sacrifices,” says the Lord. “Don’t bring me any more burnt offerings! I don’t want the fat from your rams or other animals. I don’t want to see the blood from your offerings of bulls and rams and goats. 12 Why do you keep parading through my courts with your worthless sacrifices? 13 The incense you bring me is a stench in my nostrils! Your celebrations of the new moon and the Sabbath day, and your special days for fasting—even your most pious meetings—are all sinful and false. I want nothing more to do with them. 14 I hate all your festivals and sacrifices. I cannot stand the sight of them! 15 From now on, when you lift up your hands in prayer, I will refuse to look. Even though you offer many prayers, I will not listen. For your hands are covered with the blood of your innocent victims. 16 Wash yourselves and be clean! Let me no longer see your evil deeds. Give up your wicked ways. 17 Learn to do good. Seek justice. Help the oppressed. Defend the orphan. Fight for the rights of widows.
18 “Come now, let us argue this out,” says the Lord. “No matter how deep the stain of your sins, I can remove it. I can make you as clean as freshly fallen snow. Even if you are stained as red as crimson, I can make you as white as wool.



Again I'm sorry for ofending you, and I trust nothing I have said here or in any post in the past has added to your negative view of Christianity.
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Never make any apologies for your beliefs! Your beliefs are just that...they belong to you. If you choose to sing songs about God and how that relates to you then by all means do it. You may not be able to change the world but, you can change your self and that is always a good step in the right direction. :D
 
cool arangement, great tempo. kinda sounded like a different language for a minute.
 
I listened to both, the first sounded like a crowded mess, the second one I liked very much! As far as the other subject being discussed, I don't buy into that whole fairytale.
 
solafide, great music...

guys this is not a place to argue religion... he just posted some music...

lets just all stop and agree that the song was well done...
bravo solafide:)
 
random.hero said:
solafide, great music...

guys this is not a place to argue religion... he just posted some music...

lets just all stop and agree that the song was well done...
bravo solafide:)
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Hey, it's just a friendly discussion, but if people are feeling offended or whatever then we'll stop. :o
 
Wow look what I started.

Ha, one comment can bring about 1000 if its the right one. My statement was reguarding the history of religion and society, nothing to do with what the actual ideals of your belief in christianity are. The fact is, christianity was refocused to the patriarchial view during medieval times. It still holds very true today since women can still not become preists, nor hold any higher authority in the church. This is obviously an archaic belief system, and many involved with christianity are trying to change it, but along with "giving yourself to god" through celibacy, and the obvious problems that causes, there are many problems with the RELIGION. I consider myself a spiritual person because I do not believe in a god. I believe in the universe, and in humanity existing on this planet. I do not deny the strength of the ideas presented in many religions, and the morality they have a lot to do with, but when it comes down to it, religion has no purpose for me, it has no control over my current moral state. I respect, or try to respect, everyone I meet. People are imperfect and you cant blame someone for their mistakes to a degree. I went to catholic school for 14 years btw, so I believe they ingrain their bullshit in your head at an early age. There are definitly positives to it, but far too many negatives to have me agree with the catholic church. Now I know there are variables there because of different sects of christianity and a lot do not fall into my specific criticisms, but I do not think you should consider yourself anything other than human. You should rely on your knowledge and your respect for others, not what a 2000 year old book says, nor the interpretation of others of said book. Now it can shape your ideas true, but at a certain point, there needs to be more influence there. There is a bit of hypocracy in what I say, but I am still young, so I can't really say exactly what I feel about all this. I just know religion holds no place in my life other than an interesting subject. The afterlife does not exist, or at least not with any of your current memory. You may end up living on in something else, but you wont know any better anyway. The universe recycles itself, we're all just protons and electrons man. You could debate that, but neither of us can prove our sides so its futile. Your music doesnt offend me, but it does make me want to comment on your beliefs. I do find it a bit preachy, but tahts just my opinion. Okay, so a lot there but I think you'll find some truth to it.

Create, or you do not truly live.
 
I can't get it to play. It might be my comfuser. But I'm still glad I stepped into this thread, it's quite a discussion. Though, if the original poster wishes it take place somewhere else, I hope that's respected.
I'll try to get back to the music later after re-starting my comfuser.
 
God's Love is like Cleveland OH.

If you never go there, you can't experience it ....!!!!!
 
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