If only sharing ceiling with neighbor, is it best to focus most energy on treating ceiling?

[flobeeblow45]

Please excuse my lack of knowledge with room acoustics...

I'm moving into a basement apartment, and the only wall in my apartment I'll be sharing with a neighbor is the ceiling. Unfortunately the ceiling is thin and sound travels easily through. I'll be playing my electric guitar and singing in the apartment, but I won't be doing any recording... My purpose for room treatment isn't sound quality - It's to soundproof as much as possible so I don't get on bad terms with the neighbor (though of course getting better sound quality would be an added bonus). I realize that I can't soundproof the place on a budget - The goal is to reduce some portion of the sound that's traveling to my neighbor (even if it's just a small portion). For the front door I'm going to put in a door sweep and do some weatherstripping. I'll have a thick rug on the floor, and so that leaves the ceiling and all the other walls. I'm on a very tight budget and can't spend much on this. So I'm wondering which of the following two options is best:
1) Devote about equal soundproofing to the ceiling and each of the other walls of the apartment.
2) Devote most or all of the soundproofing to the ceiling and little to none to the other walls of the apartment.

Thanks.

 

[mjbphotos]

You can't 'soundproof', especially on a budget.

 

[flobeeblow45]

You can't 'soundproof', especially on a budget.

Thanks, I realize that. I'm just saying that I would like to reduce some portion of the sound that travels to the upstairs neighbor (even if it's a small portion).

 

[markmann]

My music room is in a basement and I stuffed R9 insulation between all of the upstairs floor joists and then installed zero clearance insulated ceiling panels. I also insulated the heat ducts that run through the joists. Those three items definitely reduced the amount of sound going upstairs. If you are dealing with a finished ceiling I doubt there's much you can do to reduce sound going upstairs.

 

[Johne1]

Please excuse my lack of knowledge with room acoustics...

I'm moving into a basement apartment, and the only wall in my apartment I'll be sharing with a neighbor is the ceiling. Unfortunately the ceiling is thin and sound travels easily through. I'll be playing my electric guitar and singing in the apartment, but I won't be doing any recording... My purpose for room treatment isn't sound quality - It's to soundproof as much as possible so I don't get on bad terms with the neighbor (though of course getting better sound quality would be an added bonus). I realize that I can't soundproof the place on a budget - The goal is to reduce some portion of the sound that's traveling to my neighbor (even if it's just a small portion). For the front door I'm going to put in a door sweep and do some weatherstripping. I'll have a thick rug on the floor, and so that leaves the ceiling and all the other walls. I'm on a very tight budget and can't spend much on this. So I'm wondering which of the following two options is best:
1) Devote about equal soundproofing to the ceiling and each of the other walls of the apartment.
2) Devote most or all of the soundproofing to the ceiling and little to none to the other walls of the apartment.

Thanks.

Because you’re in a temporary residence, which you don’t own, opting to mix with professional monitoring or reference headphones is your best option, IMO. While not ideal, it’s a consistent listening environment where you can mix songs, with the aid of proper headphones and headphone calibration software, such as Sonarworks or TB Morphit plug-in. You should also have some speakers available, even if just computer speakers. Also, Waves NX plug-in is being used to simulate room conditions. Most people are listening to music on headphones or in their car these days. So be sure to check your mixes in your car. Even big studio mix engineers are saying they always check their mix in the car.
Save a LOT of money even after spending a few hundred dollars on professional mixing headphones.
Put that towards buying a house, then buy monitors and room treatment and have your own home studio for years to come.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Roll the bass off on your amp and/or put it on a bed or sofa instead of the floor or something solid.
That's going to help with bass transmission which is probably the main thing that'll piss off neighbours.

If you're practising it doesn't need to be loud - You just need to be able to hear it. Keep that in mind.
Might even be worth while reaching out to the neighbour and explaining...Aiming to practice during their working hours or something like that.
A lot of people are much more forgiving if they've been consulted or informed.

 

[rob aylestone]

I think the first thing I'd do is find the weak spots, and I suspect the ceiling will be it. If the neighbour is a friendly type - enlist their help from the outset, if they're more, er, distant then you need a different tack. One good way to do it is to get a sensitive mic, and monitor it via headphones, then you wait till they are in the room above, and you can hear their TV or music - then use the mic on a pole to try and locate where the sound is getting in. Probably the ceiling. Is your ceiling hard fixed to the joists then their floor fixed to that? If so, then if you can hear their TV then anything louder in your space will be obvious to them.

If the side walls are solid and it's not them that's allowing sound in or out, then the only solution is to suspend a new ceiling from the walls, below, and not touching the real ceiling. the gap can be stuffed with rock wool or similar, but the only other solution is to add mass to the ceiling - so layers of plasterboard/sheetrock, but there will still be a direct path. I fear no cheap solution is workable here. If you need isolation. Best case, a room within a room, standing freestanding on your floor, but that's at least a few thousand as a minimum for materials alone.

 

[Slouching Raymond]

If you use a modelling amp, with headphones, you won't have a problem.
I usually do exactly that, Behringer Vamp Pro and Bass Vamp Pro, and it is not inferior.
The best way to stop sound transmission is a solid gold room within a room.
Second best may be the same, made out of lead.
Looks like your budget will not stretch that far.
So, stick with headphones.

 

[flobeeblow45]

My music room is in a basement and I stuffed R9 insulation between all of the upstairs floor joists and then installed zero clearance insulated ceiling panels. I also insulated the heat ducts that run through the joists. Those three items definitely reduced the amount of sound going upstairs. If you are dealing with a finished ceiling I doubt there's much you can do to reduce sound going upstairs.

Thanks. I am unfortunately dealing with a finished ceiling

 

[flobeeblow45]

Because you’re in a temporary residence, which you don’t own, opting to mix with professional monitoring or reference headphones is your best option, IMO. While not ideal, it’s a consistent listening environment where you can mix songs, with the aid of proper headphones and headphone calibration software, such as Sonarworks or TB Morphit plug-in. You should also have some speakers available, even if just computer speakers. Also, Waves NX plug-in is being used to simulate room conditions. Most people are listening to music on headphones or in their car these days. So be sure to check your mixes in your car. Even big studio mix engineers are saying they always check their mix in the car.
Save a LOT of money even after spending a few hundred dollars on professional mixing headphones.
Put that towards buying a house, then buy monitors and room treatment and have your own home studio for years to come.

Thanks, but as mentioned in my post. This is not for recording purposes. I want to play my instrument and sing live and without headphones just for rehearsal.

 

[flobeeblow45]

Roll the bass off on your amp and/or put it on a bed or sofa instead of the floor or something solid.
That's going to help with bass transmission which is probably the main thing that'll piss off neighbours.

If you're practising it doesn't need to be loud - You just need to be able to hear it. Keep that in mind.
Might even be worth while reaching out to the neighbour and explaining...Aiming to practice during their working hours or something like that.
A lot of people are much more forgiving if they've been consulted or informed.

Thank you!
I have an auralex amp and monitor modulation attenuator that my amp always sits on. See here:
Auralex amp and monitor modulation attenuator
Will that work? Or better to put it on something else?

Definitely planning to talk to the neighbor to figure out some compromises. Though would still like to soundproof as much as possible if at all possible.

 

[flobeeblow45]

I think the first thing I'd do is find the weak spots, and I suspect the ceiling will be it. If the neighbour is a friendly type - enlist their help from the outset, if they're more, er, distant then you need a different tack. One good way to do it is to get a sensitive mic, and monitor it via headphones, then you wait till they are in the room above, and you can hear their TV or music - then use the mic on a pole to try and locate where the sound is getting in. Probably the ceiling. Is your ceiling hard fixed to the joists then their floor fixed to that? If so, then if you can hear their TV then anything louder in your space will be obvious to them.

If the side walls are solid and it's not them that's allowing sound in or out, then the only solution is to suspend a new ceiling from the walls, below, and not touching the real ceiling. the gap can be stuffed with rock wool or similar, but the only other solution is to add mass to the ceiling - so layers of plasterboard/sheetrock, but there will still be a direct path. I fear no cheap solution is workable here. If you need isolation. Best case, a room within a room, standing freestanding on your floor, but that's at least a few thousand as a minimum for materials alone.

Thanks Rob. Yeah, adding a new ceiling is way over my head and budget.

So, I've been thinking this through all day:
The studio apartment is one big room: Luckily it's not a square or rectangular shape... and there is a column near the center of the room that when combined with the angling in the far right corner of the room I'm thinking could make for a nice sectioned off music space. Also, it seems that the area of the neighbor's apartment upstairs directly above the "music space" is their bedroom, which is good because I'll never be playing at night, and from what I've heard thus far from a few days of being here, the neighbor is rarely in the bedroom before night time. Here is what I can probably afford doing... I'm curious If you think it will maybe make some difference (even if small) in the amount of sound that escapes to my neighbor upstairs. I drew a diagram (see image below) with dimensions of different parts of the "music space" and apartment to help guide.
For starters I have a thick carpet (labeled in the diagram). Carpeting will also be covering most of the rest of the apartment.
So first of all, I could buy lets say 4-6 bass traps and put them in areas around the "music room" (maybe 2-3 on the ceiling, and 3-4 in the corners where I know bass builds up most). I haven't labeled the bass traps in the image.
Then I could buy some acoustic/soundproofing blankets - Check this out:

Tips and Tricks for Using Producer’s Choice Acoustic Sound Blankets – VocalBoothToGo.com

vocalboothtogo.com

Based on the article above it seems that these blankets if layered/pleated (especially in the corners of the rooms where bass builds up) and placed several inches away from the walls, then this can actually not only absorb some of the higher frequencies but also some of the bass. I've labeled the blankets in the image with dotted lines - So I could section off the music room with the blankets, hopefully absorbing some sound. And then I can also cover the ceiling with 2-3 layers of blankets (not labeled in diagram).
I've also labeled where I'd put my guitar amplifier and my two speakers for the PA system through which I sing (at the end of the music space enclosed by walls but facing towards the rest of the apartment.)

Do you all think that this could possibly help reduce a little of the noise traveling upstairs?
Or is it not even worth doing this because it will make no difference?

Many thanks for any feedback.

 

[flobeeblow45]

If you use a modelling amp, with headphones, you won't have a problem.
I usually do exactly that, Behringer Vamp Pro and Bass Vamp Pro, and it is not inferior.
The best way to stop sound transmission is a solid gold room within a room.
Second best may be the same, made out of lead.
Looks like your budget will not stretch that far.
So, stick with headphones.

I've tried modeling amps with headphones, and I really feel like the sound doesn't come too close to just playing through my tube amp.
Even if I play through headphones and a modeling amp, that still leaves the singing (which tends to be louder than when I play guitar)... and practicing singing with headphones really just doesn't come close to simulating singing live - as I'm practicing for live performance.... unfortunately I can't afford any rehearsal space...

 

[TalismanRich]

Unfortunately, about 90% of the info you've posted regarding things like acoustic blankets, bass traps, etc are designed to control reflections inside the room They do little in terms of stopping sound from traveling through the ceiling into your neighbor's room. Low frequencies (like below 200Hz) that reach the ceiling can travel through the structure and be easily heard.

The only effective way to stop the sound from traveling through the structure is pretty much limited to added mass and physical separation. Neither will be cheap to implement and probably impossible since you are dealing with finished room. You would need to build a room inside the room, isolated from the normal ceiling and walls. This will require some type of ventilation, which could add more cost. Such rooms might include double thickness wallboard, separated with something like green glue, or putting mass loaded vinyl between the layers to provide both a physical and air gap barrier to stop vibration.

There are commercial solutions, but they are not cheap. Here is one such vendor: https://www.vocalbooth.com/

You might want to read this from WhisperRooms. It explains the difference between treatment and soundproofing. difference-between-sound-treatment-and-soundproofing/

If you are handy, there are several places on the internet where you can find plans for building such booths.

 

[flobeeblow45]

Unfortunately, about 90% of the info you've posted regarding things like acoustic blankets, bass traps, etc are designed to control reflections inside the room They do little in terms of stopping sound from traveling through the ceiling into your neighbor's room. Low frequencies (like below 200Hz) that reach the ceiling can travel through the structure and be easily heard.

The only effective way to stop the sound from traveling through the structure is pretty much limited to added mass and physical separation. Neither will be cheap to implement and probably impossible since you are dealing with finished room. You would need to build a room inside the room, isolated from the normal ceiling and walls. This will require some type of ventilation, which could add more cost. Such rooms might include double thickness wallboard, separated with something like green glue, or putting mass loaded vinyl between the layers to provide both a physical and air gap barrier to stop vibration.

There are commercial solutions, but they are not cheap. Here is one such vendor: https://www.vocalbooth.com/

You might want to read this from WhisperRooms. It explains the difference between treatment and soundproofing. difference-between-sound-treatment-and-soundproofing/

If you are handy, there are several places on the internet where you can find plans for building such booths.

What you're saying was basically my impression to begin with, but the article I posted about the blankets seems pretty convincing that when used correctly they can actually eat up a noticeable amount of the sound. But I know so little, so I'll probably avoid taking risks on blankets...

Thanks for the links. The article on treatment vs. soundproofing makes sense. Well at least I can seal the gaps in the doors and windows, ha.

 

[flobeeblow45]

Also, two more questions.

1) I mentioned that I was planning to have the music space where I labeled it in the diagram above because that area of my apartment is directly below the upstairs neighbor's bedroom, where it seems he rarely is during the time of day that I'll be playing. I assume that will make a noticeable difference in how much sound he'll hear when he's in his living room (which is above the 22x10 foot section of my apartment opposite where the music room will be), right?
I ask because frankly I'd actually prefer it from a comfort standpoint to have the music room under where his living room is. So if it won't make any difference where I play, then I'll probably just put it under his living room.

2) If it will in fact be beneficial to have the music room where I labeled it in the diagram... As I have it now the amp and speakers are pointed in the direction of where his living room is on the other side of my apartment.... But what if I had them pointed towards the 12 foot side of the music space? Outside of that wall is the outdoors - there's door and a flight of stairs that leads up and into the back yard. Or alternatively I could have them pointed at the 10 foot side of the music room. On the other side of that wall is just the below ground foundation of the building that's next to my apartment building where nobody lives. Any thoughts on what might be best or will any option I choose not make any difference?

Thanks for any feedback.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Thank you!
I have an auralex amp and monitor modulation attenuator that my amp always sits on. See here:
Auralex amp and monitor modulation attenuator
Will that work? Or better to put it on something else?

Definitely planning to talk to the neighbor to figure out some compromises. Though would still like to soundproof as much as possible if at all possible.

I'm not familiar with that product but it does seemed to be geared towards minimising low frequency transmission into the floor/stage/whatever, so it's on the right lines I suppose.

The goal, in my opinion, should be to reduce bass as that's what's going to travel the most.
If you've ever lived near, or walked by, a club in full swing, it's not hi-hats and shakers you're hearing. It's deep dull thud thud thud.
Bass carries, and even more so if the source is on a solid structure.

Rolling the bass off at the amp, and getting it up on something thick and soft, is going to make a big dent in the problem, IMO.

You mentioned headphones...I get where you're coming from. Have you ever tried slipping one can off?
A lot of singers and frequent interviewees and podcasters do that. It feels much more natural for a lot of people.

 

[flobeeblow45]

I'm not familiar with that product but it does seemed to be geared towards minimising low frequency transmission into the floor/stage/whatever, so it's on the right lines I suppose.

The goal, in my opinion, should be to reduce bass as that's what's going to travel the most.
If you've ever lived near, or walked by, a club in full swing, it's not hi-hats and shakers you're hearing. It's deep dull thud thud thud.
Bass carries, and even more so if the source is on a solid structure.

Rolling the bass off at the amp, and getting it up on something thick and soft, is going to make a big dent in the problem, IMO.

You mentioned headphones...I get where you're coming from. Have you ever tried slipping one can off?
A lot of singers and frequent interviewees and podcasters do that. It feels much more natural for a lot of people.

Many thanks.

My sofa is currently located not close to where I want to place the music room... Maybe I'll move it there and when I play I'll put the amp with the auralex stand on the sofa.... Or maybe I'll just stack some blankets or something like that.
Also, I if you're saying this will help... Then I wonder what you think about the idea of the sound absorbing blankets that I mentioned above. See my response to Rob. That article seems to be saying that if you layer the blankets and place them several inches from the walls ceilings that they should make a noticeable difference.

Interesting about the slipping one can off idea. I've certainly seen that image before (maybe in movies or something)... So I'll give it a shot and see how it sounds.

 

[Papanate]

Please excuse my lack of knowledge with room acoustics...

I'm moving into a basement apartment, and the only wall in my apartment I'll be sharing with a neighbor is the ceiling. Unfortunately the ceiling is thin and sound travels easily through. I'll be playing my electric guitar and singing in the apartment, but I won't be doing any recording... My purpose for room treatment isn't sound quality - It's to soundproof as much as possible so I don't get on bad terms with the neighbor (though of course getting better sound quality would be an added bonus). I realize that I can't soundproof the place on a budget - The goal is to reduce some portion of the sound that's traveling to my neighbor (even if it's just a small portion). For the front door I'm going to put in a door sweep and do some weatherstripping. I'll have a thick rug on the floor, and so that leaves the ceiling and all the other walls. I'm on a very tight budget and can't spend much on this. So I'm wondering which of the following two options is best:
1) Devote about equal soundproofing to the ceiling and each of the other walls of the apartment.
2) Devote most or all of the soundproofing to the ceiling and little to none to the other walls of the apartment.

Mass is what stops sounds - and you can't insulate enough to stop the sound from going through the Floor.

 

[Slouching Raymond]

Interesting about the slipping one can off idea. I've certainly seen that image before (maybe in movies or something)... So I'll give it a shot and see how it sounds.

My Sennheiser HD205 headphones have one ear cup that can rotate about 45 degrees, so it is on your head, not your ear.