How DO YOU mix?

[mixsit]

..All country, jazz, dixieland, metal, rock, even back to the 1870's John Philip Souza music was built on the kick. You can argue it but you're off on a weird tangent because you're not talking about the music we all listen to. All that music is built on the kick.

Elvis music is all built on the kick. It's not apparent because the kick wasn't recorded well. And Duke Ellington. And the Beatles, except for stuff like Yesterday and Eleanor Rigby which are deviations from the norm. All normal music is based on the kick, even if it's not apparent, even if you can't hear it clearly in the recording. That's the way a "normal" (I'm talking about songs you hear at Safeway) band works.

Yeah, mostly we build on the kick. But then you go on to lump in all that other stuff- including 'cause it might not have been recorded well?
Geez! The very first time I got a jazz gig the drummer was like 'Stop! we don't do it like that. Get the frikin close mic thing out there.
It wasn't all that far back it was Snare du jour.
How about a little perspective back in here.
Folks, ask yourself, did you ever like Tower of Power?
Go see em again. It's yama-subkick now. Now, if perchance you don't get what I'm hinting at here it would be the consequences –the difference imposed on feel getting too far gone in one direction or another. Fair enough?

 

[miroslav]

All country, jazz, dixieland, metal, rock, even back to the 1870's John Philip Souza music was built on the kick. You can argue it but you're off on a weird tangent because you're not talking about the music we all listen to. All that music is built on the kick.

Elvis music is all built on the kick. It's not apparent because the kick wasn't recorded well. And Duke Ellington. And the Beatles, except for stuff like Yesterday and Eleanor Rigby which are deviations from the norm. All normal music is based on the kick, even if it's not apparent, even if you can't hear it clearly in the recording. That's the way a "normal" (I'm talking about songs you hear at Safeway) band works.

You're talking about two different things...the beat...and the actual recording/production decisions for a given song/genre.

Yes, the kick is central to most Rock/Pop beats...but that doesn't mean it's supposed to make the walls shake on every hit or that it is the center-most element in every Rock/Pop mix (well, maybe the drummers will think it is. )

So like...all those Rock/Pop records of the last 50 years that sound great but where you can hardly here any kick (or even the whole kit for that matter)…
….are all flukes/bad recordings/deviations...?

 

[kcearl]

getting the kick right, or getting it relationship correct with the bass in most music doesn't necessary mean that its in your face or busting a woofer imo


Some songs require more of a click than a thump etc, I just think if you get it wrong then the rest of your song just falls apart more than any other ingredient in the mix

except jazz, rockabilly and Gustav Mahlers 3rd Symphony in G major

 

[kcearl]

So like...all those Rock/Pop records of the last 50 years that sound great but where you can hardly here any kick (or even the whole kit for that matter)…
….are all flukes/bad recordings/deviations...?

many of them were pretty shit recordings, what we buy into is a number of things that make us enjoy them, their novelty, nostalgia, uniqueness, song writing, energy...etc etc..

produce a modern version with the same levels or "missing" kick/kit and you'd call it a bad mix most likely

and what examples do you have of popular music from the late 60s to the present where the kit is hardly heard?? I listen to stuff from 60s R&B, through disco, through 80s synth, mod revival, ska, new wave.. in fact a very broad spectrum right up to nowadays and i cant think of any tracks where I cant hear the kit or its not important...even on the micro pops stuff from the mid 70's its still evident and still drives the song along without shaking any windows

 

[dintymoore]

... So like...all those Rock/Pop records of the last 50 years that sound great but where you can hardly here any kick (or even the whole kit for that matter)…
….are all flukes/bad recordings/deviations...?

No, but even if you can't hear the kick in the final recording, it doesn't mean that in that band the sound wasn't built on the kick. It was. By deviations I mean trombone quartets, stuff like that.

It doesn't matter if it's Thin Lizzy or Count Basie. People need to know that in all but bizarre perversions, the kick drum is ground zero.

Everything Hal Blaine was on. Everything James Jamerson was on. But not trombone quartets, Ravi Shankar, Beethoven, John Cage, Romanian folk songs etc...

One of the hard things for me learning drums was that that was hidden in many of the old jazz records of the 1920's. When I was a kid the boppers would rag on me for playing four on the floor. Then I worked with Duke Ellington's bass player (Jeff Castleman) and he said "how come you don't play quarter notes on your kick?". Blew my mind.

 

[miroslav]

No, but even if you can't hear the kick in the final recording, it doesn't mean that in that band the sound wasn't built on the kick. It was.

And I didn't/don't disagree...

But again...that's talking about the BEAT...but yet, in a few earlier posts, it sure seemed like some folks were actually talking about the recorded SOUND of the kick (or entire drum kit), and how it needed to always be up front and punching through very noticeably to be valid...and that I don't agree with. All those great (not shitty) recordings of the last 50 years where you can hardly hear the drums are more than enough proof of that.

Even very current Rock/Pop songs don't ALL feature the drums very prominently. That seems to be more the norm with some folks here on the forums...that drums have to smack you in the face on every beat, on every song...and quite frankly, it's not true, nor does that always work or sound right when you consider the rest of a given mix.
Of course...if you just do "punks on speed" kind of retro-80's music...you might think it's all about the drums and trashy guitars off in the background doing fast 3-chord changes against out of tune vocals and junior-high lyrics.
And there’s nothing wrong with that kind of music (I use to play it 30 years ago)...but there's many more musical styles besides that.

So yeah...the kick anchors the BEAT in modern music....but it's not the center focus of every mix of every style of music....(nor is the drum kit).

 

[kcearl]

yes it is

 

[dintymoore]

... the kick anchors the BEAT in modern music....but it's not the center focus of every mix of every style of music....(nor is the drum kit).

But it should be.

This thread was about "How DO YOU mix?".

 

[bouldersoundguy]

How DO YOU mix?

Book a session, bring some tracks and you can watch.

 

[miroslav]

yes it is

Then go with that...after all, it's YOUR mix.

I’m just making the point that if you take all the modern music of the last 50 years, including current stuff...it's not all drum focused.

Of course...to realize that, you have to actually listen to a lot of different musical styles.
You can't be like a metal head who swears all guitar leads are played at 100 MPH...or a grunge head who doesn't think guitar leads ever even existed.

But it should be.

This thread was about "How DO YOU mix?".

Right, it "was"...unitl it turned more into a "drums must rule the mix" discussion.
I'm just saying every genere and/or song is different and calls for a specific approach....otherwise all music would kinda' sound the same.

 

[miroslav]

Book a session, bring some tracks and you can watch.

 

[Greg_L]

miroslob is just arguing the contrarian point because that's what the dumbfuck does - in every thread. In just about every genre that uses a drum kit, the drums and specifically the kick, are prominent and provide the driving force behind the song. If it's tracked and mixed well, you'll hear it. If it's some low-budget recording, then maybe you won't, but it should be there. Listen to any "hit" from any genre that uses drums, and you'll hear them.

 

[miroslav]

That's 'cuz a dumbfuck like you thinks all points not the same as yours are wrong and "contrarian".

Your music perspectives are myopic at best...all your songs sound like the same song over and over and over.
Loud, boxy drums up the middle....

And thanks for not letting me down...I knew it was only a matter of time before you took this thread to a personal attack level...as you always do. In just about every thread you take part in...someone gets personally mocked by you.

 

[dintymoore]

... I’m just making the point that if you take all the modern music of the last 50 years, including current stuff...it's not all drum focused...

Very little of it is drum focused. Most is vocal focused. I can't think of any Beatles tunes that are drum focused.

But very, very little wasn't built on the kick. You could go to Safeway and I'll bet it would be a few weeks before you heard one song that wasn't. "Leaving on a Jet Plane" there's one. Not too many. Normal is the whole band is built on the kick. Even stuff like Basie's L'il Darlin' is, and you can't even hear the kick. But take it out and the whole band falls apart.

 

[Greg_L]

That's 'cuz a dumbfuck like you thinks all points not the same as yours are wrong and "contrarian".

Your music perspectives are myopic at best...all your songs sound like the same song over and over and over.
Loud, boxy drums up the middle....

Compared to your flat, washy, out of tune, poorly played cardboard box drum recordings in your weird, sterile, adult contemporary dentist office songs, I'll take that as a win.

 

[kcearl]

Then go with that...after all, it's YOUR mix.

I’m just making the point that if you take all the modern music of the last 50 years, including current stuff...it's not all drum focused.

Of course...to realize that, you have to actually listen to a lot of different musical styles.
You can't be like a metal head who swears all guitar leads are played at 100 MPH...or a grunge head who doesn't think guitar leads ever even existed.

I get what your saying, and im not saying its drum focused, Im saying by not getting them right you will ruin a mix more than any other instrument, and that includes making them overly prominent when they are not meant to be..

we dont hear it in professional recordings because generally, not always, these are well mixed

In the amateur realms the drums are the biggest let down as they are an obvious afterthought in so many mixes

In fact as far as a n00b is concerned Id say focus on the instruments you are least comfortable with in the mix first, not "my guitar tone is great" or "boy i nailed those vocals", chances are more than 80% use drum programmes, and use them pretty badly

 

[miroslav]

Very little of it is drum focused. Most is vocal focused. I can't think of any Beatles tunes that are drum focused.

But very, very little wasn't built on the kick. You could go to Safeway and I'll bet it would be a few weeks before you heard one song that wasn't. "Leaving on a Jet Plane" there's one. Not too many. Normal is the whole band is built on the kick. Even stuff like Basie's L'il Darlin' is, and you can't even hear the kick. But take it out and the whole band falls apart.

Again...I totally agree about the kick anchoring the beat.

But like I said...some folks are selling the notion that the kick and drums MUST be loud and up front otherwise the song sucks....which is not the case with thousands of hit tunes...old and current.

 

[Greg_L]

And thanks for not letting me down...I knew it was only a matter of time before you took this thread to a personal attack level...as you always do. In just about every thread you take part in...someone gets personally mocked by you.

That's because you are a dumbass. Don't be a dumbass and you won't get mocked. It's not hard to understand.

 

[Greg_L]

But like I said...some folks are selling the notion that the kick and drums MUST be loud and up front otherwise the song sucks.....

No one said that. See what I mean? You make stupid shit up just so you can argue against it. And you wonder why you get bashed?

 

[miroslav]

Compared to your flat, washy, out of tune, poorly played cardboard box drum recordings in your weird, sterile, adult contemporary dentist office songs, I'll take that as a win.

Well...before you go standing in line for the next Grammy...
...I heard some of your most recent stuff, and the first thing that surprised me was how flat and boxy your drums sounded for someone who's always trashing everyone else's drum sound!!!
If it wasn't for some of the L/R guitars...I would swear those drums were done in Mono with wallets taped to the heads!

Then again...maybe you just need to check your studio monitors...?

Enjoy the “win”....