Home Recording's Dirty Little Secret

[Bob's Mods]

It seems we have strayed away from the primary theme of this thread...but thats ok, its normal for that to happen and an interesting read just the same. Basically what were you thinking you could obtain for results when you started out recording in the digital rhelm? Many here, it appears, started way before the digital age. I would think that a small Portastudio could not compare to a decked out LA studio. It would be just so in your face obvious. But those guys selling us digital gear and software would have us believe anything is possible with a computer box. For instance, before I knew better, I bought that Antares Mic Modeler plug in. To read the box you'd salivate thinking your Rode NT1 could be magically changed into a virtual U47...the same mic the Beatles recorded on! What a waste of money that was...and those guys laughed all the way to the bank...."thank you sucka".

There are a lot of blotted hardware and software claims out there which make it easy for the newbie to think he can obtain an LA high end studio result with a limited budget and modest rig. The fact is you do need that great gear, a nice room, years of experience and great chops to make that sound happen. But can you make super recordings at home once you get some experience under your belt and some decent selected gear and software? Yes you can but its a long slow road. Its a commitment... it still won't compare to the ultimate driving machine however...a great full blown studio and knowledge of how to use one. As one poster stated much earlier, the marketers having us all believeing anything is possible in the box and this is simply not true. The ballon has got to burst someday.

Bob the Mod guy.

 

[mattkw80]

Well, despite the fact that Antares is also the maker of Auto-Tune, which many people swear by, they should be held accountable for Antares Mic Modeler, which many people, such as yourself feel was a total rip.

I don't think I'd ever buy from Antares now.

 

[Bob's Mods]

The Antares Auto Tune is probably their flagship product and is a worthy product but they have been guilty of chasing the phantom whims of the market as well in the name of the dollar. They sell another program called "The Tube" I think. Give me a break....somebody please! Its not cheap either...as far as I'm concerned it should be given away for free...and it has that crazy challenge/response security software on it like "The Tube" or whatever it is is worth protecting. Such pandering to the whims of the unknowing is reprehensible. It goes against my grain. If I were a business person offering product to this or any community, my wares would provide true value at a fair price. I could never sell snake oil to the sick.

Bob

 

[Bob's Mods]

It would be super if more readers would join the poll. The poll numbers are low compared to the viewing. Jump on in.

Bob

 

[Beck]

It seems we have strayed away from the primary theme of this thread...but thats ok, its normal for that to happen and an interesting read just the same. Basically what were you thinking you could obtain for results when you started out recording in the digital rhelm? Many here, it appears, started way before the digital age. I would think that a small Portastudio could not compare to a decked out LA studio. It would be just so in your face obvious. But those guys selling us digital gear and software would have us believe anything is possible with a computer box. For instance, before I knew better, I bought that Antares Mic Modeler plug in. To read the box you'd salivate thinking your Rode NT1 could be magically changed into a virtual U47...the same mic the Beatles recorded on! What a waste of money that was...and those guys laughed all the way to the bank...."thank you sucka".

There are a lot of blotted hardware and software claims out there which make it easy for the newbie to think he can obtain an LA high end studio result with a limited budget and modest rig. The fact is you do need that great gear, a nice room, years of experience and great chops to make that sound happen. But can you make super recordings at home once you get some experience under your belt and some decent selected gear and software? Yes you can but its a long slow road. Its a commitment... it still won't compare to the ultimate driving machine however...a great full blown studio and knowledge of how to use one.

Good post... you're right. And yes it is difficult for the analog issue not to come up because analog people like me have always seen the snake oil aspect in all this.

As one poster stated much earlier, the marketers having us all believeing anything is possible in the box and this is simply not true.

Yeah, that was me in my first post, which was in answer to the original question, but I've been around for a while... before during and after the digital revolution, so I might have a perspective you weren't expecting.
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=2847546&postcount=64

My answer was basically, yes you can achieve professional results with modest equipment because I and many others I know have done it, but the whole DAW and plugin insanity is another issue. It’s mostly horse feathers and moonbeams. Yes it is a fraud that has taken many a novice for a ride.

One can’t simply run something through an algorithm and expect to have all the nuances of the hardware device that inspired it.

 

[iamjethro]

I have read all of these pages with interest. I have limited funds. First as a student, then starting as a teacher, then as a guy with a family and responsibilities, other things come before extra equipment. I have made a go with a Tascam 488 for 15 or so years (used too infrequently) and just purchased a Fostex Mr16hdcd with my wife's blessing. I keep thinking to albums I enjoy. It comes back to the songs. The first lp I bought when I was a young guy was "A Night At The Opera" but I also love Nick Lowe and his 'bashing" the songs through. Nothing technicly brilliant on his part, but I hum or sing "Cruel to be Kind" all the time. Roy Thomas Baker and Nick Lowe are both influences. I can come closer to producing a song like "Heart of The City" on my equipment than "Bohemian Rhapsody" OK by me though. When my songs are down, they are down and at least when I die if they are listenable, my son can play them for his grandkids. That may be a hit in some people's book.

 

[TerraMortim]

I only have to read your posts, and only those on this thread. It didn't take long at all.



Ha ha... I almost spit my Coca-Cola all over the monitor when I read that... warn me next time that something silly is comming, will ya?

I'm more involved in recording than ever and understand the inner workings of digital and analog technologies to the fullest. That’s why I can make informed choices and offer informed input… something kinda rare on anonymous web forums. Music and recording are two of the most important things in my life, as they have been my entire adult life.

And I can tell you, many people with less patience than I have don’t even bother engaging in these forums anymore, unless they have services or products to sell. So if it always comes down to a vote or the prevailing groupthink you're missing an entire demogrphic. The participants are always going to be cheated out of helpful information because it happens to go against the conventional "wisdom" of that particular forum community.

Perhaps these topics don’t come up often on amateur forums, but the issue not being on your radar is very telling of how out of the loop you are, not how out of touch I am. You have it backwards.

Despite your insistence that you’re experienced and have heard it all, your comments betray you. You’re clearly quite isolated from broader music recording circles… a culture I’ve been part of for nearly 30 years, and one in which this topic is alive and well.

As I stated before, you have no idea… there’s an entire world out there that you and many others that have grown up on these forums have no idea exists.

These forums create a strict organizational culture that ultimately limits what you will learn because you are encouraged to reject anything that isn’t already widely known in the forum community.

Kinda makes a forum that was intended to foster learning from many perspectives dysfunctional, doesn’t it?

you obviously skim everything I say, or you have a difficult time understanding the english language... Is English your second language? Ah yes, I am so caught up in advertizement, in fact that's how I live my life, I go to wal-mart to shop, eat all my meals at mcdonalds, and I drive an SUV that runs on the blood of muslims.

Hey one thing I like about you is your modesty. I think we might be great friends. I already made friends with some other nice chaps on here, just like Sweet "25 years" Nubs .. maybe he'll show me some time what colour of eye shadow will really bring out my eyes when I'm mixing music. Music is your life, so that makes you an expert...wow, we must have lots of little experts running around. Geez, I should just give up, if everyone's an expert, then what is there even to strive for?

So I grew up on this forum? Geez, I didn't even know that. This place must have been around for a long time...I learned how to speak, and how to use the grown up potty on this place too... thanks homerecording.com! I guess I must have picked up some top quality industry secrets while reading trolling posts of people who endlessly try to out nerd each other by pulling the my neve is bigger than your neve cockfights, and people asking what the best vintage tube mic for 10 cents is. That's what made me all I am today.

hmm hardly man, I've worked in all kinds of situations, in large studios, and my own studio. I've worked with people who have credits as big as this smear dude, as well as more local level people. And I tell you, it's actually somewhat rare that the analog argument gets brought up any more...don't get me wrong, it used to be all people talked about when I was fairly new to audio, but really, it's a very small minority of people, usually people who are too afraid of the way things are done changing, so they will knock anything that's new because...they don't make em like they used to. It really is the old man syndrome of when I was your age there was no crime, everyone was good to each other and they danced a happy dance down the street, just like singing in the rain...JUST like that!

I'm in whatever circles suit me at the time, not whatever circles will impress all the hyper-nerds at the AES boat cruise and wank-fest 2008

Ah yes, yep...knew it knew it...in fact my vision went STRAIGHT to the phrase 30 years before I even read the post.. hahahaha... I can't say it has as much as a ring as Sweet "25 years" Nubs, damnit. Well, since I guess all it takes to be an award winning audio engineer is to really like music and to have been around it for more than a decade, oh yes...and have a blind devotion to anything "vintage" That's like the icing on the cake... jesus..this is really making me want to give up, with all the world class engineers who fit that criteria..it's like market over saturation... I should just open my own supermarket...we'll wear paper hats and sing to our customers when we bag their groceries (just to remind me of the old days)

There's a world...outside..of....this...forum...this...computer??!?! noOOOO!!!!! nooO!!!!! you lie! there is not! You lie! This is the world man! right?!?! this is all there is...right?!!!?! Please! Say something!!...Anything! Tell me that there isn't a whole world of opportunity out there....tell me I haven't been wasting my life...DAMN YOU!!! LIE TO MEEEEEE!!!

when I was your age. . . .

 

[TerraMortim]

One can’t simply run something through an algorithm and expect to have all the nuances of the hardware device that inspired it.

ever heard of physical modeling? =D Listen to an MS20 and then throw on the MS20 plugin from the Korg Legacy collection. If you can hear a difference, I'll buy you a hooker.

 

[DavidK]

I've worked with people who have credits as big as this smear dude, as well as more local level people.

Its actually Sear, but your version is funnier.

It seems we have strayed away from the primary theme of this thread

OK:

Back in 1986, there WAS no "prosumer" gear. You either had a portastudio or a real studio. Nobody was expecting a pro sound because the disparity in gear was too great. A few grand wouldnt buy squat, whereas today it can buy a fully capable project studio. Portastudios were sketchpads, nothing more. I doubt that anyone back then expected to make commercial CDs on 4 track cassette players.

 

[TerraMortim]

Its actually Sear, but your version is funnier.



OK:

Back in 1986, there WAS no "prosumer" gear. You either had a portastudio or a real studio. Nobody was expecting a pro sound because the disparity in gear was too great. A few grand wouldnt buy squat, whereas today it can buy a fully capable project studio. Portastudios were sketchpads, nothing more. I doubt that anyone back then expected to make commercial CDs on 4 track cassette players.

I know, it was for comedic effect.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Good post... you're right. And yes it is difficult for the analog issue not to come up because analog people like me have always seen the snake oil aspect in all this.

Well, as another old timer who has been around since there were nothing but "analog dudes", I still see the same problem with your stance, Beck (with all dues respect; this is JUST a discussion ). It's not the technology's fault that today's market is filled with snake oil products. The market has changed, they are selling to people who don't know any better. It wasn't like that so much 30 years ago. In fact, it's the pros of 30 years ago who are being used to sell the newbs today's stuff (if I see Bruce Sweiden or Al Schmitt try and sell me one more product, I just might puke! )

Again, don't forget that there's just as much analog snake oil out there today as there is digital. From cheap Chinese condensors masquerading as Newmanns to multi-channel preamps that sound almost as bad as the mics being plugged into them, to mixers with EQ sections that sound worse than the tone controls on my old Sansui receiver. I could go on. I haven't even mentioned the disgusting term "studio monitor" that's being slapped on every other 2-way bookshelf design made these days.

Don't blame digital. It's not the technology that's the problem. It's the biology.

G.

 

[TerraMortim]

very thought out and intelligent repose..absolutely, couldn't agree more

 

[Beck]

ever heard of physical modeling? =D Listen to an MS20 and then throw on the MS20 plugin from the Korg Legacy collection. If you can hear a difference, I'll buy you a hooker.

Pilgrim, I’ve seen everything so stop trying to patronize me… it doesn’t work, but I will share another industry secret. Tell me, what music are you listening to right now, my friend?

It’s very important to have the right music. For example, I’m currently enjoying Nazareth – Hair of the Dog, live in Huston 1981.

If for example you are listening to Captain & Tenille Muskrat Love or something at this time you are in real mortal danger because of an imbalance in the universe that can only be restored by me buying you a hooker.

 

[DavidK]

Pilgrim, I’ve seen everything so stop trying to patronize me… it doesn’t work, but I will share another industry secret. Tell me, what music are you listening to right now, my friend?

It’s very important to have the right music. For example, I’m currently enjoying Nazareth – Hair of the Dog, live in Huston 1981.

If for example you are listening to Captain & Tenille Muskrat Love or something at this time you are in real mortal danger because of an imbalance in the universe that can only be restored by me buying you a hooker.

Where's the anger coming from? We're having a remarkably civilized conversation here. You like analog, so what? Its not like the rest of us are doofuses and you hold the key to the Kingdom, get over it already.

For the record, Daryl Dragon (aka The Captain) is an extremely accomplished musician (and the son of Carmen Dragon), as is Toni Tenille. Toni appears throughout the US with Symphonies doing the great American songbook, and did the broadway tour of Victor/Victoria. She is also a very gracious and classy lady. Its one thing to have a preference on recording gear, another to put down very talented musicians. I have no idea how many records YOU have sold, but they sold millions, and she appears to sold out crowds at Symphony pops shows.

 

[Beck]

Where's the anger coming from? We're having a remarkably civilized conversation here. You like analog, so what? Its not like the rest of us are doofuses and you hold the key to the Kingdom, get over it already.

DavidK, perhaps we should be asking you that question. I was trying to lighten the tension in here with some random silliness. You didn't get it.

And I know who the doofuses are.... it's not everyone. If you feel like someone is talking down to you it might be that you aren't that person's peer.

 

[Beck]

Well, as another old timer who has been around since there were nothing but "analog dudes", I still see the same problem with your stance, Beck (with all dues respect; this is JUST a discussion ). It's not the technology's fault that today's market is filled with snake oil products. The market has changed, they are selling to people who don't know any better. It wasn't like that so much 30 years ago. In fact, it's the pros of 30 years ago who are being used to sell the newbs today's stuff (if I see Bruce Sweiden or Al Schmitt try and sell me one more product, I just might puke! )

Again, don't forget that there's just as much analog snake oil out there today as there is digital. From cheap Chinese condensors masquerading as Newmanns to multi-channel preamps that sound almost as bad as the mics being plugged into them, to mixers with EQ sections that sound worse than the tone controls on my old Sansui receiver. I could go on. I haven't even mentioned the disgusting term "studio monitor" that's being slapped on every other 2-way bookshelf design made these days.

Don't blame digital. It's not the technology that's the problem. It's the biology.

G.

I don’t disagree with much of what you’re saying here Glen. However, my “stance” is not one-dimensional. I simply find it’s helpful to isolate elements, such as the recording medium so that we may judge them on their own merits. Each technology has pros and cons that people should be aware of. All other things being equal, digital and analog as recording mediums affect the sound of the final product. It behooves the recordist to know what the mediums can and can’t do for them.

I only blame digital in as much as it is to blame for substandard performance. But it is probably more correct to say I blame those that have misled an entire generation with flashy brochures and unsubstantiated claims for this technology. As an early proponent of digital, I even blame myself for not exercising more caution before jumping in. 20 years ago I could preach the digital gospel with the best of them, and I can assure you no one would leave that room without believing that digital was going to save the music world. We all believed that at one time or another.

And just to clarify, when I talk about analog in this context I’m talking about tape, not synths, or mics, or other devices… and when I talk about digital I’m talking about a recording format, and not digital processors, etc.

Some have maligned me as being broadly anti-digital, yet my studio is filled with digital devices of every kind, carefully selected by me for what they can do. But this is a diverse forum with people ranging from 7 to 70 (and that’s just IQ) so communication will frequently breakdown.

It’s true, the market is less discriminating today than it once was. And yet not everyone with a reel-to-reel was a recording genius… far from it. There were only a handful in every community that could work magic with whatever they had. I was one of only two home-based operations in a metropolitan area of about 150,000 people that was directly competing against three full-blown commercial studios, one of which I worked with for a time. But everyone had a portastudio, so why couldn’t they make magic with it?

We have the same thing today only multiplied due to the PC recording explosion… lots of jets, but few pilots. Plenty of recording software, but not everyone has the skills to become a successful musician/recordist.

Product quality of every kind has declined too. I don’t recommend Today’s analog junk either, but yikes don’t get me started on the whole outsourcing to Asia thing… my post would probably crash the server. I can afford anything I want, but my studio looks like an 80’s/90’s museum by design. I built it that way with great care.

By the way, I believe Jet Blue now has a barf bag endorsed by the artist formerly know as Prince with his image on it… if you have need of it, in keeping with the situation you described above.

 

[TerraMortim]

Pilgrim, I’ve seen everything so stop trying to patronize me… it doesn’t work, but I will share another industry secret. Tell me, what music are you listening to right now, my friend?

It’s very important to have the right music. For example, I’m currently enjoying Nazareth – Hair of the Dog, live in Huston 1981.

If for example you are listening to Captain & Tenille Muskrat Love or something at this time you are in real mortal danger because of an imbalance in the universe that can only be restored by me buying you a hooker.

I do enjoy that song...for it's bad assed lyrics...might I suggest Accept - Son of a Bitch for a very similar mood.

May I matronize you instead? I must ize something befor the clock strikes...oh shit...too late.

Right now? I'm listening to Modest Mussorgsky's Night on Bald Mountain...very fine music.

 

[TerraMortim]

But this is a diverse forum with people ranging from 7 to 70 (and that’s just IQ)

an IQ of 7 in a human would most likely indicate a lack of being able to even live past about a minute and a half or so, as there would not even be the ability to breathe... 70, is also below the average for someone considered mildly retarded, which would probably even be below the capacity to use a computer, maybe enough to shit ones self and drip spit bubbles from the corner of the mouth. You're attempt at humour is paltry at best, and leaves me scratching my head as to how a human brain decided it to be humorous to say such things. (translation.... duhhh that was a dumb joke deerrr)

I might have you know that you do not know of what you speak of friend. I'd stop before you make yourself look like a total idiot. You're caught up in an argument that could only be successfully had almost a decade ago without people looking at you as if you hadn't touched a piece of audio gear in almost as long. Regardless of what you believe the community is chatting about, they certainly aren't spending time talking about how digital is "ruining music"...unless they simply cannot write music well enough to save their life anymore (has beens) and need something beside themselves to blame for their lack of success.

FYI, it makes no difference if it's a virtual synth or a DAW software, if you can accurately model an analog circuit you can do it...regardless if it's meant to playback a waveform, effect it, or generate one from scratch. Again, you show that you only really know of older digital gear when it comes to the process of recording, with every word you say, proving it more and more. What the fuck difference do you think is in an effects box that is digital vs software, just the fact that you have a few noise generators (a cable and interfaces on both ends) in between the signal and destination.

They couldn't make magic with a portastuudio because that is severely below any level of quality that could produce something passable as anything other than, a portastudio recording... again, you date yourself... welcome to the land of computers...they're great little inventions...think of them like an abacus on speed, to use terms that you might be familiar with. Believe it or not, but all those wonderful little digital recordings coming out these days use something that isn't a portastudio, and magic is attained on a regular basis, whether it uses analog tape or not.

Analog quality has declined, sure...but I must tell you that the quality of digital gear has gotten insanely good, and is getting better all the time..there are innovations every day (such as Pianoteq...an 8mb physically modeled piano that has fooled quite a few people in my experience as to if it was a real piano.."Oh i'm so glad you got a real piano for that part...you just can't capture the emotion with sampled pianos" <-- actual quote lol)

WHEN I WAS YOUR AGE!!!

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

All other things being equal, digital and analog as recording mediums affect the sound of the final product.

You are right, we are in majority agreement. I guess I'm just of the POV that the above sentence is the key. Neither "sound" is natural; both analog and digital recording color the sound. There's no natural reason, no intrinsic reason, no quantifiable or qualifiable reason for analog to sound "better" than digital. It doesn't.

Its nurture, not nature, that causes many of us to believe that one is superior over another. Analog "sounds better" because two or three generations of engineers and end users have been conditioned to that color. In video we went through the same arguments with film vs. video tape, then analog videotape vs. digital videotape, etc. Videotape just looked "too artificial" and "too cold" for the sole reason that it didn't look like film. Since when did film ever resemble reality to any great degree? Never. It's just the fake look that we had gotten conditioned to.

The kids just getting into this stuff today are going to look at film and analog tape as nothing but nostalga for a very good reason. That's exactly what it is. They will grow up on DSD and BluRay and think that's the way things should look and sound, and look at a 2" Studer as creating a sound about as good as we think of getting from 78rpm plastic. And they will be just as wrong about it all as we are and our fathers were.

I know I will NEVER change your mind, Beck; nor am I trying to. I like applying an occasional analog patina to my digital recordings when the production calls for it (it doesn't always). I just think it's fair to present the opposing viewpoint that analog, while a useful and different sound from digital, is not necessarily the "superior" format. Any such "superiority" is borne more of local perception than global reality.

G.

 

[cusebassman]

You are right, we are in majority agreement. I guess I'm just of the POV that the above sentence is the key. Neither "sound" is natural; both analog and digital recording color the sound. There's no natural reason, no intrinsic reason, no quantifiable or qualifiable reason for analog to sound "better" than digital. It doesn't.

Its nurture, not nature, that causes many of us to believe that one is superior over another. Analog "sounds better" because two or three generations of engineers and end users have been conditioned to that color. In video we went through the same arguments with film vs. video tape, then analog videotape vs. digital videotape, etc. Videotape just looked "too artificial" and "too cold" for the sole reason that it didn't look like film. Since when did film ever resemble reality to any great degree? Never. It's just the fake look that we had gotten conditioned to.

The kids just getting into this stuff today are going to look at film and analog tape as nothing but nostalga for a very good reason. That's exactly what it is. They will grow up on DSD and BluRay and think that's the way things should look and sound, and look at a 2" Studer as creating a sound about as good as we think of getting from 78rpm plastic. And they will be just as wrong about it all as we are and our fathers were.

I know I will NEVER change your mind, Beck; nor am I trying to. I like applying an occasional analog patina to my digital recordings when the production calls for it (it doesn't always). I just think it's fair to present the opposing viewpoint that analog, while a useful and different sound from digital, is not necessarily the "superior" format. Any such "superiority" is borne more of local perception than global reality.

G.

But... but... analog came first - it must be better!

...plus, I always thought tape machines were cool simply because I am a mechanics dork as much as I am an audio recording dork