Holy Fucking Shit

  • Thread starter Thread starter Outlaws
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Recording Engineer said:
And me about yours for you feeling you needed to waste your time to post a reply over such a stupid over-generalized comment I made playing-around, playing-around on what is known to be over-generalized.

You probably have no idea but from time to time a couple of very nice lawyers who happen to work for some prominent pro audio companies come through here. As well, a few other lawyers post here from time to time.
 
c7sus said:
Lawyers don't know dick about being crooked.

Just talk to a building contractor

From the first Police Squad movie (aka Naked Gun):

Jane Spencer: How could you do something so vicious?

Vincent Ludwig: It was easy my dear. You forget I spent two years as a building contractor.

:)

I'm sure it'll probably come out that Recording Engineer is a building contractor.
 
ozraves said:
You probably have no idea but from time to time a couple of very nice lawyers who happen to work for some prominent pro audio companies come through here. As well, a few other lawyers post here from time to time.

And what does THAT have to do with ANYTHING? More than likely, the lawyers that would be come-by here will joke about it all with you! Why do you keep-on, even after clarification?
 
Recording Engineer said:
And what does THAT have to do with ANYTHING? More than likely, the lawyers that would be come-by here will joke about it all with you! Why do you keep-on, even after clarification?

You just don't get it, do you?
 
Well let me chime in I have some very related experience. I handbuild custom Guitars for those of you who didn't know. I have started telling customers a time frame of 1-2 MONTHS longer than I think it will actually take me. The reason being is that very VERY often people who handmake things are often too optimistic for reality. I found myself in a perdicament like that not too long ago. I was supposed to deliver a guitar and it was 2 months late. Now that is no excuse for not keeping the customer informed. I always e-mailed him and let him know the status and the little setbacks I was having so that he knew what to expect. The customer was real good about everything, but it could have eaisly been like your situation. Point is I'm sure the guy is working hard to get it done. There is no one who wants it done and the customer satisfied than the builder I'm sure. My advice would be to give him some more time. Call him up and let him know you just want to be kept informed of the situation. I'm sure you will find a pleasing end. Best of luck.
 
John Mayes said:
Point is I'm sure the guy is working hard to get it done. There is no one who wants it done and the customer satisfied than the builder I'm sure.

Although there's certainly less incentive to hurry when you already have the customer's $1,000 in your pocket.
 
jslator said:
Although there's certainly less incentive to hurry when you already have the customer's $1,000 in your pocket.

No that is a wrong point of view. If the companany does not work hard and try to get things done on time to the best of their ability as well as put out a great product then there reputation will suffer. If there reputation suffers enough then they get no more orders. No more orders means they go broke and have to go and work at the local 7-11 (or whereever). Unless the guys over at daviesound are total wankers (which I doubt considering thier great rep.) then they are trying hard to get it done and out the door at the quality everyone has come to expect. And the "$1,000 in your pocket" I'm not sure about them but I spend the deposits on supplies for the guitar. I spend 100% of the deposit on supplies. So there is no $1,000 in my pocket. I can't speak for them however. Plus what is $1,000? That is not much in the grand scheme of things. That would not pay half of my overhead/bills/rent/insurance/food/ect. for a month. If someone is just sitting back on $1,000 then that is not much dough to sit back on.
 
John Mayes said:
I have started telling customers a time frame of 1-2 MONTHS longer than I think it will actually take me.

That is known as the 'Scotty Method' of scheduling.

"Captain, I'm an engineer not a miracle worker!"
 
John Mayes said:
...Plus what is $1,000? That is not much in the grand scheme of things. That would not pay half of my overhead/bills/rent/insurance/food/ect. for a month. If someone is just sitting back on $1,000 then that is not much dough to sit back on.

Maybe if you deal with customers who drop $10-20k on a custom guitar. Maybe if you pull in over 50k a year. Maybe you should shut the fuck up you rich asshole. A thousand dollars to me is a shit load and I wish I could toss your ass in a pit with a bunch of pissed off working-class idealists. Class-warfare autonomous judgement would set you staight.

fucker
 
LOL! nice..whatever it is called it works. Sometimes I actually hit the mark I tell the customers rather than being a little early...I'm glad I told them that at them times! Plus it's better to be plesantly suprised than dissapointed!
 
John Mayes said:
If the companany does not work hard and try to get things done on time to the best of their ability as well as put out a great product then there reputation will suffer. If there reputation suffers enough then they get no more orders.

If it's taking several months to turn around a unit, it sounds like they could do with a few less orders.

Unless the guys over at daviesound are total wankers (which I doubt considering thier great rep.) then they are trying hard to get it done and out the door at the quality everyone has come to expect.

Hopefully.

And the "$1,000 in your pocket" I'm not sure about them but I spend the deposits on supplies for the guitar. I spend 100% of the deposit on supplies. So there is no $1,000 in my pocket. I can't speak for them however.

I took it that the $1,000 was the full purchase price up front. Maybe that's wrong. In any event, you can actually make a pretty good profit by taking deposits up front and delaying purchasing supplies until the last minute. Granted they do it on a much larger scale, but it's sort-of what all the big discount retailers do. They buy inventory on 30-day terms, get the product in the door and then sell it quickly. They earn a return on the money between the time they sell the product and the time they actually have to pay their suppliers for it.

Plus what is $1,000? That is not much in the grand scheme of things.

It might be a lot to the poor schmuck who is out $1,000 and doesn't have a preamp to show for it.
 
Outlaws said:
Maybe if you deal with customers who drop $10-20k on a custom guitar. Maybe if you pull in over 50k a year. Maybe you should shut the fuck up you rich asshole. A thousand dollars to me is a shit load and I wish I could toss your ass in a pit with a bunch of pissed off working-class idealists. Class-warfare autonomous judgement would set you staight.

fucker


I was just trying to give some advice from someone who has experince that parallels his situation. What I'm saying is I'm sure the guy over there are not trying to rip anyone off. If that is what they did they would not be around for very long. I'm far from rich...FAR from rich (I make a profit of less than $20,000 a year, last year I LOST money). And I was never rude to you but obviously you did not like my advice comeing from your foul mouth (or hands whatever) so I'll bow out now. I hope you get your preamp and you love it. Best of luck to you outlaws.
 
John Mayes said:
What I'm saying is I'm sure the guy over there are not trying to rip anyone off.

You're probably right. Still, it seems the manufacturer is at least guilty of some pretty poor communication, or the customer's complaint wouldn't have ended up posted here.
 
Not necessarily... I know and have seen plenty of people take it to a place such as this without EVER taking their concerns to the people involved.

I'm not saying that's the case here, but...

And I known Hayne is real good at keeping his customers updated on the progress... And from what Outlaws has said, that seems to be the case here too.
 
Outlaws said:
Maybe if you deal with customers who drop $10-20k on a custom guitar. Maybe if you pull in over 50k a year. Maybe you should shut the fuck up you rich asshole. A thousand dollars to me is a shit load and I wish I could toss your ass in a pit with a bunch of pissed off working-class idealists. Class-warfare autonomous judgement would set you staight.

fucker

John was being very respectful and just trying to help by sharing his related experiences. You are classless.
 
Legally speaking, however, the situation is far from a vanilla as it's been put. Without rehashing the spirit of previous posts... when a buyer has been denied receipt of his product beyond a reasonable time, there are consequential and incidental damages that arise legally. Outlaws and his/her supporters has stated in somewhat brutal tones this principle: that once performance of a contract has been delayed the buyer is entitled to either 1) a revoking of the original contract (return of his deposit), 2) adequate assurance that the contract will be performed within a reasonable amount of time (reasonable can be measured by what is reasonable in prior contracts dealings with the parties, similar contracts with others similarly situated, trade practice, etc.) or 3) performance of the contract plus incidental or consequential damages that arose from the failure of the breaching party to perform on time. This is just straight contract law via the Uniform Commercial Code.

Now sure we can say that greatness takes time and that the Davisound handmade product will be well worth the wait, BUT, while all this waiting is going on, Outlaws is missing two things: his right to enjoy his/her $1000 plus the lack of the ability to use the "alleged" preamp. Depending on Outlaws's commercial involvement in music this could be bigger than just a reasonable wait as the absence of his preamp would prevent, for example, his/her ability to raise prices to reflect the quality of the new preamp. Further (and quite obvious) there are a whole host of other preamps in this price range that he/she could have if Davisound didn't have his/her money.

More than just the contract stuff mentioned above, any time a merchant (or any party) makes a promise and the receiver of that promise relies on that promise to his/her detriment (e.g. an expenditure of money or some other tangible economic loss) the person who made the promise is legally liable for at least the amount of that economic loss. That is, Davisound is legally liable for any economic expenditure that Outlaws makes in reliance of Davisound's promise that "it'll be finished in another month (or stated period of time).

Further there's another legal theory that is at play, fraud. If overpromising is a pattern or way of operating for a particular business then fraud (in the inducement) is another possible legal theory making that business in even deeper waters from just the contract and promissory estoppel theories mentioned above. People have talked about the scummy lawyers, but truth is a lawyer may be needed if something doesn't give soon. Can you possibly imagine the consequences that we'd be in if every business operated like this? Sure, it may be an isolated incident, but that's what the law is here for... to make sure that people who get into business do not do so at the economic peril or others and against longstanding legal and public policy principles. If Davisound wants to get in the handcrafted audio business it needs to either state no timeline when it solicits orders or hire enough people to effeciently handle orders on time.

Just a little tidbit from your resident scum.

Es.
 
ozraves said:
You just don't get it, do you?

Nope. And you've failed at even attempting to explain... While I HAVE explained; as it doesn't get much more straight-forward than "playing-around".
 
Rev E. Thank You for posting that information. I truly hope it is useful to Outlaws should he feel he honestly needs to go that route; regardless of the information I've provided here within, about my dealings with DaviSound, at his request.

Yet, he still has not said if he has even politely-voiced his concerns directly to DaviSound in a calm and logical state-of-mind, before it has esculated remotely this far... I certainly hope he has before coming here and throwing-around the lawyer-threat, instead of right-out in ANY "problem", which is all too common now 'days.

Regardless of how many and what rights he has in this matter, considering what I know about DaviSound, my experiences with DaviSound, how much DaviSound's entire website emphasizes that it takes A LOT of time and patience to complete each and every one of their products, me knowing the time it takes to manufacture custom and/or and hand-built gear, and what he has presented thus-far here within, I personally think he is being unreasonable. That is MY opinion.

And just so that you aware, DaviSound is NOT trying to get "into" the business... They have been "in" the business for over 32 years in the EXACT same location and don't plan-on going ANYWHERE!!!
 
RE,

Thanks for the response. I would agree that resolving disputes between parties without lawyers who want to litigate (or sometimes without lawyers period) is in the best interests of the average person. If Outlaws has contacted Davisound and stated his/her concerns the he/she needs to determine whether Davisound's extension of time is reasonable to him/her. If no contact has been made then this post is pointless other than to tell someone that they do indeed have some legal rights at play here. I've found that such information is usually more dangerous than helpful.

If there is one thing that I do know, lawyers when used appropriately, in appropriate circumstances are a wonderful thing. However, one should never substitute legal counsel for having the backbone to first stand up for yourself. If after you've tried reasonable efforts to resolve a dispute then contact your lawyer and attempt to seek justice the hard and expensive way.;)

P.S. I suspect that if Outlaws simply wanted his/her money back, Davisound may willingly do this if asked. If, however, they don't give the money back after being asked, after they are have passed the due date several times, a lawyer is definetly needed asap. But as I said earlier, lawyers are for when you can't get justice the easy way... talking with the other side and explaining your position.
 
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