Do you really buy that expensive recording software?

[SouthSIDE Glen]

People that wouldn't pay for it in the first place can not be considered in the "percentage of projected user base".

Of course they can. The only reason they don't pay for it is becaise the theft is so easy to get away with.

Look at it this way, you don't see these same people complaining that their hardware they own costs too much. No, instead they save up for what they can and do without what they can't, and make do just fine. It would be EXACTLY the same way with most software if it were just as hard to get away with the theft of software as it were with the theft of hardware.

So the idea that "these people wouldn't pay for it anyway" is bogus. They would if they had to. They are only taking advantage of the situation to steal something they would otherwise pay for if the stealing weren't so easy.

Which, BTW, is the EXACT reason why they are so against things like copy protection - it has NOTHING to do with the other red herring reasons they throw up. They just want to continue to get something for nothing.

And it's amazing how people who have never managed a company or owned a company or been responsible for anyone other than themselves think they know so much about business economics and responsibility. And before you get on my case, I have been there and done that several times over, as supervisor, manager, corporate owner, and head of household - and except for the household part, each of those others more than once.

When you guys finally grow up and understand that things have to be worked for in order for things to work, you'll look back on this thread and shake your head at how ridiculous you once were.

G.

 

[acidrock]

And it's amazing how people who have never managed a company or owned a company or been responsible for anyone other than themselves think they know so much about business economics and responsibility.

G.

Equally amazing is that with the freeware out there and cheap programs like Reaper people still have to rationalize stealing.

 

[Toker41]

Of course they can. The only reason they don't pay for it is becaise the theft is so easy to get away with.

Look at it this way, you don't see these same people complaining that their hardware they own costs too much. No, instead they save up for what they can and do without what they can't, and make do just fine. It would be EXACTLY the same way with most software if it were just as hard to get away with the theft of software as it were with the theft of hardware.

So the idea that "these people wouldn't pay for it anyway" is bogus. They would if they had to. They are only taking advantage of the situation to steal something they would otherwise pay for if the stealing weren't so easy.

Which, BTW, is the EXACT reason why they are so against things like copy protection - it has NOTHING to do with the other red herring reasons they throw up. They just want to continue to get something for nothing.

And it's amazing how people who have never managed a company or owned a company or been responsible for anyone other than themselves think they know so much about business economics and responsibility. And before you get on my case, I have been there and done that several times over, as supervisor, manager, corporate owner, and head of household - and except for the household part, each of those others more than once.

When you guys finally grow up and understand that things have to be worked for in order for things to work, you'll look back on this thread and shake your head at how ridiculous you once were.

G.

You assume a lot. You know nothing of who I am, or what I do, let alone what I have done. It is you that rationalizes the results of the studies on the matter. I say again, I defy anyone to ever show proof positive that pirating has an measurable impact on sales.
Again, I find myself saying this, because you simply hear what you want....My software is paid for. I never said stealing isn't wrong, nor did I try to justify it. I never tried to rationalize it. I simply stated how things are. You hear what you want, because you just want to throw holier than thou stones. You judge me as "one of the evil doers", not because of my actions, but because of my knowledge on the matter. What's truly amazing is how easily, and quickly those stones fly from the hands of the self righteous.


Strange how you over look the fact that REAL copy protection is not widely used. Wonder why that is? It absolutely exist, yet I have rarely encountered it. Why?

 

[Toker41]

so true...it's always everyone elses fault as to why my company failed...it's the customers... terrorists..natural disasters...it's...piracy.

Bad Management. Period.

 

[boingoman]

I say again, I defy anyone to ever show proof positive that pirating has an measurable impact on sales.

I feel the same way when people try to say it doesn't have an impact. It's not really provable either way.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

You assume a lot. You know nothing of who I am, or what I do, let alone what I have done.

Other than being a pothead? You're right, I don't. Educate me. What is your business management experience?

It is you that rationalizes the results of the studies on the matter.

As someone who has worked for three different worldwide (and one not-so-worldwide ) software developers in positions from developer, to supervisor, to project architect, to company owner, I have never seen such "studies" that were done by anybody outside the Slashdot/BitTorrent community, and the ones that I had seen were little more than public polls answered by those who's answers were given with an agenda to support piracy.

But I may have missed something. It has been a few years since I held those positions at those companies. Once again, I offer you the opportunity to educate me. Just which studies are you referring to?

I never said stealing isn't wrong, nor did I try to justify it. I never tried to rationalize it.

If you *really* believe that, you're kidding yourself far more than you're fooling anyone else. If you did not really believe in piracy, you would not be so adament in defending your current position, whether it's factual or not.

And it's not me that hears what he wants, it's you that hasn't heard what I actually said. If you go back and read my main post in response, I made the argument that *even if* we assume you're right, and *even if* there is no theft of sales, the theft of service remains. I followed that up with the postulation that there is indeed theft of sales based upn the ease of theft; that if software were as difficult to steal without getting caught as hardware, software sales would increase because the base of people who say they would never buy it anyway would decrease.

you just want to throw holier than thou stones...What's truly amazing is how easily, and quickly those stones fly from the hands of the self righteous.

This is the most absurd thing to come off you're keyboard in this thread yet. Its those spoiled brats that think their own personal material desires are more important than the rights of others that are acting like they are above everybody and everything else including the law. One can't get more self-righteous and holier-than-thou than that.

Strange how you over look the fact that REAL copy protection is not widely used. Wonder why that is? It absolutely exist, yet I have rarely encountered it. Why?

There's a couple of reasons, but the main one is because it's an arms race that, like all arms races, is a losing battle.

Every time someone comes along with a CPS - good or bad as it may be - some college dormer guy with a sixer of Mountain Dew and a pound of M&Ms spends his days and nights coming up with a hack, crack, or workaround. Your average CPS is good for about three weeks after public release before a lock-bumping method to bypass or nutralize it is spread around the warez community at the speed of light.

There's just no percentage in it for the software companies. It costs money to implement copy protection. If that protection does not really provide protection, there's not much incentive for the company to spend the money to implement it. There's not a single developer that I have worked for or consulted for that wouldn't jump on using a CPS scheme that could be shown to be deterrent enough to pay for itself and then some without making a hassle for the legitimate end user. But because of the nature of digital data, such schemes do not yet exist. There are some pretty hardened schemes out there, but they are not feasable for use by anybody other than the B2B market and those not interested in turning profit.

G.

 

[Jotosuds]

wow this thread is still alive and kicking.

 

[TerraMortim]

so is my dick.

 

[Toker41]

Other than being a pothead? You're right, I don't. Educate me. What is your business management experience?As someone who has worked for three different worldwide (and one not-so-worldwide ) software developers in positions from developer, to supervisor, to project architect, to company owner, I have never seen such "studies" that were done by anybody outside the Slashdot/BitTorrent community, and the ones that I had seen were little more than public polls answered by those who's answers were given with an agenda to support piracy.

But I may have missed something. It has been a few years since I held those positions at those companies. Once again, I offer you the opportunity to educate me. Just which studies are you referring to?If you *really* believe that, you're kidding yourself far more than you're fooling anyone else. If you did not really believe in piracy, you would not be so adament in defending your current position, whether it's factual or not.

And it's not me that hears what he wants, it's you that hasn't heard what I actually said. If you go back and read my main post in response, I made the argument that *even if* we assume you're right, and *even if* there is no theft of sales, the theft of service remains. I followed that up with the postulation that there is indeed theft of sales based upn the ease of theft; that if software were as difficult to steal without getting caught as hardware, software sales would increase because the base of people who say they would never buy it anyway would decrease.This is the most absurd thing to come off you're keyboard in this thread yet. Its those spoiled brats that think their own personal material desires are more important than the rights of others that are acting like they are above everybody and everything else including the law. One can't get more self-righteous and holier-than-thou than that.There's a couple of reasons, but the main one is because it's an arms race that, like all arms races, is a losing battle.

Every time someone comes along with a CPS - good or bad as it may be - some college dormer guy with a sixer of Mountain Dew and a pound of M&Ms spends his days and nights coming up with a hack, crack, or workaround. Your average CPS is good for about three weeks after public release before a lock-bumping method to bypass or nutralize it is spread around the warez community at the speed of light.

There's just no percentage in it for the software companies. It costs money to implement copy protection. If that protection does not really provide protection, there's not much incentive for the company to spend the money to implement it. There's not a single developer that I have worked for or consulted for that wouldn't jump on using a CPS scheme that could be shown to be deterrent enough to pay for itself and then some without making a hassle for the legitimate end user. But because of the nature of digital data, such schemes do not yet exist. There are some pretty hardened schemes out there, but they are not feasable for use by anybody other than the B2B market and those not interested in turning profit.

G.

HARVARD STUDIES. Do some research if you are going to shoot off your mouth. There is anti-piracy software that does work in both the software industry, and the music industry. (XP is just one example) For a guy that claims to have worked in all these "worldwide" software companies, you sure don't seem to know much about it.

Those "brats", as you call them, are not pointing fingers and judging anyone, unlike you.

You lost all respect at "pot head". That statement made you lose all credibility, and only backs up my point that you are self righteous, and judgmental (not to mention ignorant). You speak out of your ass based on personal beliefs instead of facts to back up your BS. You also called me a liar when I say that I don't claim stealing is wrong (again with the judgment). I am a thief because I state facts that you don't want to accept? Your ignorance is surpassed only by your arrogance. F*ck you and your soapbox.


3 "worldwide businesses" but can't spell. Please.
Like I said.....bad management.

 

[Farview]

, and judge mental (not to mention ignorant).

Judgemental is one word.

 

[Toker41]

Judgemental is one word.

Typo. I corrected it before you could even post that.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

HARVARD STUDIES.

Which ones? Show me, sarge. And I'm still waiting for you to educate me in the history of your wonderful business management experience and accumen.

Do some research if you are going to shoot off your mouth.

Physician, heal thyself.

You lost all respect at "pot head".

Why is that, TOKER? Let's see, A rampant Douglas Adams fan that calls himeself "TOKER" and has a sig line quoting a Steve Miller song that's about laying the line on the ladies that he's a real man because he's a pot smoking musician. So you're offended for me calling you what you personally call yourself online? Please, save your false indignation for someone as gullbly stoned as you are.

The real punch line here is that you don't even realize that song is a sarcastic dig making fun at someone like that. Hence the title "Joker". And YOU are the one holding the respect in this conversation?

Ran 3 "worldwide businesses" but can't spell. Please.

If you put down your beer bong long enough to read what I said, I never said I *ran* them. I said I worked for them in varying degrees of development and management and that I have *run* my own corporate businesses.

And as I'm not bullshitting and have nothing to hide, I'll tell you exactly which ones they were: The FTD Network (FNI), D-Vision Systems/Discreet Logic, and Geneer Software Development Partners. The not-so-worldwide one was a State of Illinois statewide government information network. I incorporated my first software and IT consulting business in 1990 called Alexandria Information Systems, Ltd (a sub-s corporation), and currently run my own A/V operation called SouthSIDE Multimedia Productions.

So, let's hear your credentials, TOKER.

And yea, I type too fast for my own good and don't check my typos close enough here in the forum. My apologies. While we're at it, if you really want me to climb up your ass for not even knowing that "judgemental" is not two words, I can. But attacking someone for typos is the resort of a child.

So you and your "f*** you" negative rep can take your fake "Harvard studies", your fake indignation, and your fake objection to pirating, crush them up, stick them in your toilet-paper-tube-and-aluminum-foil-steamroller and smoke them, dipshit.

G.

 

[NYMorningstar]

"backpedaling"? Please show me where I ever once justified stealing. I'm not back pedaling at all. Like I said, some just hear what they want. Period.

My statement about backpedaling had nothing to do with you justifying stealing and you talk about peeps that "just hear what they want. Period"??

The backpedaling I referred to I quoted for ya and thought I was real clear about it, sorry, and I thought I was dense .

Your first statement I quoted uses "studies" as a source of proof for your position on piracy and the fact that the pirates wouldn't have bought the product anyhow.

Then the second quote said that you simply stated the loss of revenue due to piracy is GREATLY exaggerated, and in fact can not be measured at all,

So what is it? I call it bullshiting or speaking out of your ass as you put it.

Why is it that that 'studies' state facts when it is to support your position and when someone disagrees with you then all of a sudden it becomes not measurable at all??

What is measurable is your understanding of marketing and from what I am reading you are close to clueless. First off, a whole industry does not boost prices because of piracy. Try taking an economics course before you think you understand the market and how prices are set. Learn what a standard deviation is and the point of diminishing returns. If you get that far then maybe you'll be able to talk intelligently about marketing and pricing and the effects piracy may have on a company.

 

[Toker41]

Which ones? Show me, sarge. And I'm still waiting for you to educate me in the history of your wonderful business management experience and accumen.Physician, heal thyself.Why is that, TOKER? Let's see, A rampant Douglas Adams fan that calls himeself "TOKER" and has a sig line quoting a Steve Miller song that's about laying the line on the ladies that he's a real man because he's a pot smoking musician. So you're offended for me calling you what you personally call yourself online? Please, save your false indignation for someone as gullbly stoned as you are.

The real punch line here is that you don't even realize that song is a sarcastic dig making fun at someone like that. Hence the title "Joker". And YOU are the one holding the respect in this conversation?If you put down your beer bong long enough to read what I said, I never said I *ran* them. I said I worked for them in varying degrees of development and management and that I have *run* my own corporate businesses.

And as I'm not bullshitting and have nothing to hide, I'll tell you exactly which ones they were: The FTD Network (FNI), D-Vision Systems/Discreet Logic, and Geneer Software Development Partners. The not-so-worldwide one was a State of Illinois statewide government information network. I incorporated my first software and IT consulting business in 1990 called Alexandria Information Systems, Ltd (a sub-s corporation), and currently run my own A/V operation called SouthSIDE Multimedia Productions.

So, let's hear your credentials, TOKER.

And yea, I type too fast for my own good and don't check my typos close enough here in the forum. My apologies. While we're at it, if you really want me to climb up your ass for not even knowing that "judgemental" is not two words, I can. But attacking someone for typos is the resort of a child.

So you and your "f*** you" negative rep can take your fake "Harvard studies", your fake indignation, and your fake objection to pirating, crush them up, stick them in your toilet-paper-tube-and-aluminum-foil-steamroller and smoke them, dipshit.

G.

Toker is my f'in name, asshole. It's on my birth certificate, "dipshit". You assume WAY to much.

"Fake objection to pirating"? What the hell are you even talking about? I never said I'm for, or against it. I simply said that I pay for all my software. I also said that stealing is morally wrong. What has you thumping your Bible is that I challenged you "nay sayers" to show one shred of evidence that pirating is the reason companies don't make money, or fold. Called out the holier than thou's on the real reason for their crusade and crucification of the sinners. You throw stones at the thieves because you feel you are better, and above them, and will judge not only them, but anyone that does not blast them for their evil doings. Obviously care nothing about expanding your mind, or understanding, or you would be spending this time researching my claim, instead of waiting for me to produce it for you. You have absolutely nothing to gain on this thread other than making yourself feel better than others. It's the reason you are posting here.

BTW...There is a difference between 1 typo, and a dozen blatant misspellings. One is a momentary loss of coordination, the other is a lack of basic intelligence. Might explain why you've had to change jobs so many times

 

[Toker41]

My statement about backpedaling had nothing to do with you justifying stealing and you talk about peeps that "just hear what they want. Period"??

The backpedaling I referred to I quoted for ya and thought I was real clear about it, sorry, and I thought I was dense .

Your first statement I quoted uses "studies" as a source of proof for your position on piracy and the fact that the pirates wouldn't have bought the product anyhow.

Then the second quote said that you simply stated the loss of revenue due to piracy is GREATLY exaggerated, and in fact can not be measured at all,

So what is it? I call it bullshiting or speaking out of your ass as you put it.

Why is it that that 'studies' state facts when it is to support your position and when someone disagrees with you then all of a sudden it becomes not measurable at all??

What is measurable is your understanding of marketing and from what I am reading you are close to clueless. First off, a whole industry does not boost prices because of piracy. Try taking an economics course before you think you understand the market and how prices are set. Learn what a standard deviation is and the point of diminishing returns. If you get that far then maybe you'll be able to talk intelligently about marketing and pricing and the effects piracy may have on a company.

"no measurable impact on sales". Don't understand what isn't clear about that.

 

[danny.guitar]

If anyone wants to see the Harvard Studies on the subject, I found the PDF in about 3 seconds on a Google search.

http://www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSharing_March2004.pdf

I'll probably never read it because:

1. I don't care that much.
2. It doesn't change the fact that piracy is WRONG.
3. I don't care that much.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Obviously care nothing about expanding your mind, or understanding, or you would be spending this time researching my claim, instead of waiting for me to produce it for you.

Just what planet have you grown up on where it's my job to prove what you're claimimg, Mr. Toker? You brought up these studies as the basis of your argument, now produce them or shut up.

I've done my research as part of my career. It's your turn now. And BTW, the reason for the moves are because I was hired away for more money and a better position by the next company, except the D-Vision/DL job where I left because Discreet Logic bought D-Vision and they were slowly phasing out the Chicago office. I could have stayed with the company if I wanted to move to Montreal, but that was not an option for me personally. So when I got a call offering a job for more money and a better position at Geneer before a layoff wound up on my resume, I took it. Never once in my career have I taken a step backwards.

Yes, I am passionate about this subject, and it has nothing to do with Bible thumping (Im a pantheist; I'm not even a monotheist...now who's making false assumptions?) or feelings of superiority. I'm passionate for two reasons:

1) As someone who actually believes in being able to support themselves and make a life by being able to trade their talents and their hard work for the things they need to survive and thrive, I've had it up to my eyeballs with the current crop of spoiled slacker brats who have no idea of the value of value and the currency of hard work, and who think they are entitled to anything they want without having to work or pay for it. And no, I'm not saying that's you. I'm just saying that you support it by throwing up cannon fodder objections to those who fight it.

2) I do my best to fight the horseshit signal-to-noise ratio of the Internet, where any hack with a keyboard and an internet connection thinks they have something important to contribute on subjects they know nothing about, and where wikiality - the definition of truth based upon concensus public opinion rather than actual truths - is starting to replace reality.

And I'm still waiting to hear the basis of your expansive knowledge in business management. Put up or shut up. Walk a mile in the shoes of the people who's jobs you claim to know more about than them before you open your smart-assed trap.

G.

 

[Toker41]

Man, your full of yourself. Internet BS police? Please. Like I said, you need to down others to feel better about yourself.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Man, your full of yourself. Internet BS police? Please. Like I said, you need to down others to feel better about yourself.

Well, I feel pretty good about busting your ass. After having asked for it three times over three days (and at least once by someone else also) you are unable to provide any evidence or support for your contention that there are "Harvard studies" backing your point. Because they don't exist. And you have absolutely ignored all opportunities to represent any relevant business management training or experience that you may have; which, if you had any, you'd be jumping all over to defend yourelf and your position.

You, sir, are a bullshitter...at least on this subject. You know nothing about how the software business works and the only "studies" there are that state that piracy has no effect on business are those polls held within the pirating-friendly community.

G.

 

[TerraMortim]

I just shot everyone at Native Instruments home office...shit! the police are gonna be after me soon!