digital gain

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

I usually have tracks that go above 0 when i'm mixing, but i use the "master" fader by pressing Alt+2 to bring the total mix down so it doesn't clip. Does this bring down the dynamic range? Would this affect the sound of my mix considerably?

I know that going above 0 will cause some distortion but I've heard it's a very small amount. I am worrying somewhat about the dynamic range being affected by the master fader that makes all the track quieter relative to each other. Any experts?

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

In the digital world, you NEVER want to have a track go beyond 0dBFS -- digital distortion is ugly and awful-sounding... if your tracks are constantly going above zero, then nevermind about dynamic range, you're degrading your sound quality significantly with digital clipping.

Whoever told you that the digital clipping distortion is "a small amount" doesn't understand the process of digital recording.

 

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

In the digital world, you NEVER want to have a track go beyond 0dBFS -- digital distortion is ugly and awful-sounding... if your tracks are constantly going above zero, then nevermind about dynamic range, you're degrading your sound quality significantly with digital clipping.

Whoever told you that the digital clipping distortion is "a small amount" doesn't understand the process of digital recording.

They're not clipping. I use the master fader to fade the entire mix below the clipping point. Is turning the master fader below 0 decreasing dynamic range?

The distortion i'm talking about is the distortion that is incurred from the volume of a digitally recorded track, sort of like increasing the size of a digital photo. If I remember correctly a guy did a transform +6 decibels, then -6 decibels on a track, saved it. Then put that track against a reversed phase version of the original unaffected track and the difference(distortion) was only at like -150 or so dB.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

I usually have tracks that go above 0 when i'm mixing...

If that "0" you're talking about is 0dBFS, then you should NEVER let that happen....... ever......

 

[Tukkis]

So does that mean that the tracks are already distorted before the master fader. I thought the master fader would be placed before the track faders? So if you have 10 tracks for example that are 3db in the software faders and are all distorting, by moving the master down enough so there not clipping anymore on the meters is the wrong way? Instead of turning down the 10 tracks individually?

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

So does that mean that the tracks are already distorted before the master fader. I thought the master fader would be placed before the track faders? So if you have 10 tracks for example that are 3db in the software faders and are all distorting, by moving the master down enough so there not clipping anymore on the meters is the wrong way? Instead of turning down the 10 tracks individually?

The master fader is AFTER track faders, so yes - if the track levels are clipping, then you're clipping going INTO the summing buss (or summing algorithm, for s/w)..... not good....

 

[dobro]

There's this thing that happens with my stuff: I do a mix that doesn't clip. Good. I convert it to mp3. Good. I upload it. Then I download it just to see what it sounds like. And when I play back the mp3 download, it the meter says it's clipping. What's that about?

Note: when I normalize stuff, I normalize it to 99.99%. What is it about a conversion to mp3 that allows the playback to clip? I can't hear any distortion, so it's no big issue, but the meter clips all the same.

This is not just me, you understand. I've noticed it with other guys' stuff as well.

 

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

The master fader is AFTER track faders, so yes - if the track levels are clipping, then you're clipping going INTO the summing buss (or summing algorithm, for s/w)..... not good....

Hey thanks! Almost every mix I've ever done has been clipping but somehow i've never noticed!? Somehow I wasn't thinking about the master fader as being a summing buss. You're right, the summing buss decreasing dynamic range wouldn't matter if you're clipping.....

 

[Tukkis]

So by leaving the tracks up they would be clipping even though the main meters show they're not because the master is down enough? And therfore there is also less dynamic range by doing it this way?

Ok what about if the individual tracks aren't clipping but when put together with a few tracks it clips because they're so many? Can you use the master fader in this scenario to stop clipping on the master levels?

I wish they would incorporate individual meters for each track in Audition. Every other decent audio program has them. The only way to check now is by soloing each track and checking them on the main levels

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Ok what about if the individual tracks aren't clipping but when put together with a few tracks it clips because they're so many? Can you use the master fader in this scenario to stop clipping on the master levels?

If none of the individual tracks are clipping, but show clipping when summed, then yes, you can lower the master level to avoid the clipping. It actually depends on where the meters read the signal and what point they're calibrated to recognize an Over occuring.

I'm not sure where you're fitting in the concept of dynamic range - that really doesn't apply at all in this case.... or did you actually mean "headroom" (which would be more appropriate)?

 

[Tukkis]

If none of the individual tracks are clipping, but show clipping when summed, then yes, you can lower the master level to avoid the clipping. It actually depends on where the meters read the signal and what point they're calibrated to recognize an Over occuring.

Ok so as long as the individual tracks aren't clipping I'm good to go with the master. Does anyone know (dobro,chris) where the meters read the signal from? I remember reading somewhere that CEP/Auditions meters have always run slightly hotter than other audio apps.

I'm not sure where you're fitting in the concept of dynamic range - that really doesn't apply at all in this case.... or did you actually mean "headroom" (which would be more appropriate)?

Yeah I got confused. I think headroom is the more appropriate term.

 

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

If none of the individual tracks are clipping, but show clipping when summed, then yes, you can lower the master level to avoid the clipping. It actually depends on where the meters read the signal and what point they're calibrated to recognize an Over occuring.

I'm not sure where you're fitting in the concept of dynamic range - that really doesn't apply at all in this case.... or did you actually mean "headroom" (which would be more appropriate)?

This is the concept I was talking about.....so lowering the master actually might avoid clipping?

 

[Tukkis]

This is the concept I was talking about.....so lowering the master actually might avoid clipping?

From what Blue said its seems as long as the individual tracks aren't clipping on their own it's ok to turn down the master fader to stop the clipping of the summed tracks.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

This is the concept I was talking about.....so lowering the master actually might avoid clipping?

Only at the summing point, if your individual tracks are higher than zero, then you are clipping BEFORE the summing occurs, which means distortion, which is to be avoided.

Why do I feel like I'm repeating myself in circles?!?!?

 

[Farview]

Turning down the master fader will only avoid clipping on a floating point (like 32 bit float) mix buss. If you have a fixed point (like 24 bit) you will clipp the mix buss before the master fader. You run into this sort of thing with the Roland 2480's and the like.

 

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

Only at the summing point, if your individual tracks are higher than zero, then you are clipping BEFORE the summing occurs, which means distortion, which is to be avoided.

Why do I feel like I'm repeating myself in circles?!?!?

I think there was a misunderstanding with what you meant by "individual tracks clipping"??? Do you mean that if they're already clipping when recorded?.....or they are recorded clean, but clip because of increased gain?

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

I meant clipping because you increase the gain on each fader duing mixing (although clipping on recording should also be completely avoided, for obvious reasons!)

Point is, you should NEVER be hitting 0dBFS ANYWHERE in the signal chain. Let me repeat - NEVER........!

 

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

I meant clipping because you increase the gain on each fader duing mixing (although clipping on recording should also be completely avoided, for obvious reasons!)

Point is, you should NEVER be hitting 0dBFS ANYWHERE in the signal chain. Let me repeat - NEVER........!

Ok well from now on I'm just going to keep the master fader at default, and lower the rest of my tracks to bring it below the clipping point, so I won't even have to worry about any of this. On my latest mix redid levels so that the master fader was at 0 and so it didn't clip and it sounded slightly better to my ears for whatever reason. Increased headroom? It seems like my mixes haven't translated well to compression or limiting. Could this be because of decreased headroom from lowering the master fader? And yeah, I may have been confusing headroom with dynamic range. I was just hoping to get a better understanding of how things worked, but I guess I just can't articulate my thoughts/questions well enough to get the answer I was looking for, so for now I will just go with the safe bet and not touch the master fader. Thank you for your help Blue Bear.

 

[dobro]

"Ok well from now on I'm just going to keep the master fader at default, and lower the rest of my tracks to bring it below the clipping point"

You don't have to take this approach, plus if you take this approach it will just give you a lot more work to do, adjusting individual track levels. It's perfectly okay in the mix to crank the master fader way up or down - the important thing is to keep an eye on the clip meter to make sure that...uh...it doesn't clip.

When Blue Bear says don't go above 0 dB in the signal chain ever, he means exactly what he says - the signal chain, however, is the signal path when you're recording, not when you're mixing. When you're mixing, forget the 0 dB thing, and just keep your eye on the clip meter.

Okay. Anybody wanna answer the question I asked earlier lol?

 

[Tukkis]

Okay. Anybody wanna answer the question I asked earlier lol?

I get the same thing with my mp3's after limiting and I use the Waves L1 limiter. I remember reading there was a reason mp3's go over. Maybe Blue can answer that.