digital gain

  • Thread starter Thread starter BRIEFCASEMANX
  • Start date Start date
So tell me if I'm getting this right.....

Don't let any track clip at all when recording. And then don't let any given track clip when solo'ed after you gain adjustments. If all the tracks combined in a mix clip that is okay because you can just bring the master fader down and keep the entire mix from clipping, just make sure no one track is clipping by itself?

That is what I originally thought before there was all this confusion.....

Anyways, what would the master fader do to headroom? It really seems like my mix sounded a little more clear after I adjusted everything so the master fader was at 0.
 
"Don't let any track clip at all when recording."

That's paramount, yeah.

"And then don't let any given track clip when solo'ed after you gain adjustments."

Well, if a track clips when soloed, then the mix is sure as shit gonna clip when you unmute all the other tracks, right? Just keep watching the clip meter in Multitrack View when you're playing stuff back in the mix (no matter whether you're soloing a track or playing the whole mix) - as long as it doesn't clip, you're fine.

"If all the tracks combined in a mix clip that is okay because you can just bring the master fader down and keep the entire mix from clipping, just make sure no one track is clipping by itself?"

Um, almost. If all the track combined in a mix clip it's okay, because you can just bring the master fader down to the point where it doesn't clip anymore. That'll take care of *all* the tracks. End of story.
 
dobro said:
"You don't have to take this approach, plus if you take this approach it will just give you a lot more work to do, adjusting individual track levels. It's perfectly okay in the mix to crank the master fader way up or down - the important thing is to keep an eye on the clip meter to make sure that...uh...it doesn't clip.

When Blue Bear says don't go above 0 dB in the signal chain ever, he means exactly what he says - the signal chain, however, is the signal path when you're recording, not when you're mixing. When you're mixing, forget the 0 dB thing, and just keep your eye on the clip meter.
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The signal chain includes everything the signal goes through. Including the mixing process. If you go above 0 db on a channel because you have added gain to it, that is a bad thing and should be avoided. It is only more work once you have let the mix get out of control and you have to back everything off. If you start out the right way, (keeping the levels under control) it is no more work than you would do anyway.
 
BRIEFCASEMANX said:
So tell me if I'm getting this right.....

Don't let any track clip at all when recording. And then don't let any given track clip when solo'ed after you gain adjustments. If all the tracks combined in a mix clip that is okay because you can just bring the master fader down and keep the entire mix from clipping, just make sure no one track is clipping by itself?

That is what I originally thought before there was all this confusion.....

Anyways, what would the master fader do to headroom? It really seems like my mix sounded a little more clear after I adjusted everything so the master fader was at 0.
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Don't let anything clip ever. If the master buss is clipping, the mix is too loud and everything needs to be backed off.
If your program has a 32bit float master buss and you are clipping it, you are doing something amazingly wrong. If it has a 24 bit fixed point master buss, if it is clipping with the master fader a 0, turning down the master fader will only turn down the clipped signal.
If the highest peak in your song is at -6db, you are still getting 24 bit resolution. If the highest peak of the song is at -46db, you are still getting more resolution than any 16 bit file has. You can turn down the faders, you will be fine. There is no prize for getting everything as close to 0db as possible. You won't get paid more, girls will not flock to you offering sex, just turn it down.
 
dobro said:
"Um, almost. If all the track combined in a mix clip it's okay, because you can just bring the master fader down to the point where it doesn't clip anymore. That'll take care of *all* the tracks. End of story.
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No, this is not always true, it depends on the architecture of the mix bus. It could very well be clipping before the master fader, so you would simply be turning down a clipped signal.
 
Jason - I hope you don't mind if I quote you in my sig - that was priceless!
 
Jason, are you talking about using Multitrack View in Cool Edit/AA, or are you talking about using a standard mixer?
 
I am talking about both. It all works the same way. If you are clipping the master buss (software or hardware), you have your gain staging way out of wack. If you have clipped a 32 bit floating point mix buss, you have used up 1500db of dynamic range. That means you are out of control. Turn the tracks down.
 
Okay, I read everything through again, and I think we agree, but I'm worried that we've expressed ourselves in ways that'll confuse Briefcasemanx.

I think this'll help him:

1 Make sure you never ever clip when you're recording something.

2 Having ensured you haven't clipped when recording, you move on to mixing. When mixing, if you make sure the clip meter in multitrack view never clips - not with solo tracks and not with the full-on mix - then you're good to go. (If it does clip, you can either turn down individual tracks, or just turn down the master volume fader.)

If you follow these guidelines, then as long as the clip meter doesn't come on, it doesn't matter what level the master volume fader is at.

No objections, right?
 
dobro said:
(If it does clip, just turn down the master volume fader.)
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No. This is wrong. You cannot just turn down the master fader. If the master fader is clipping when set at 0db and you turn it down, you are turning down a clipped signal. The light will shut off, but it will still be clipped. Leave the master fader alone. Don't let your mixes get within 6db of clipping.
Repeat after me... Turning down the master fader doesn't help...Turning down the master fader doesn't help...etc.
 
It makes sense what you're saying.

What are the audible consequences of turning down the master fader with tracks clipping when summed?

Originally Posted by BRIEFCASEMANX:
This is the concept I was talking about.....so lowering the master actually might avoid clipping?

Only at the summing point, if your individual tracks are higher than zero, then you are clipping BEFORE the summing occurs, which means distortion, which is to be avoided.

Why do I feel like I'm repeating myself in circles?!?!?
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The way I understood one of Blue Bears earlier posts was that it was ok to turn down the master fader if the tracks combined clip when summed together. As long as the individual tracks arent clipping on their own.
 
Tukkis said:
The way I understood one of Blue Bears earlier posts was that it was ok to turn down the master fader if the tracks combined clip when summed together. As long as the individual tracks arent clipping on their own.
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That's only true if the meters are reading the signal AFTER the master fader - if the meters are reading what's being summed (pre-fader), then the master fader will just be adjusting an already-clipped signal.


Tukkis said:
What are the audible consequences of turning down the master fader with tracks clipping when summed?
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The same as when individual tracks are clipped - ugly digital distortion.
 
Maybe I'm wrong here but... Digital distortion is painfully obvious in a mixdown. If you can't hear it, then perhaps you shouldn't try being an audio engineer.
 
Digital distortion is only obvious when you know what it sounds like. It is harder to tell the difference between digital clipping and using a limiter (like the L2) when it is only happening on transients.
And Bluebear is right. Turning down the master fader will work in certain circumstances. Without knowing how each particular program was put together, it is safer to not clip anything-EVER. Leave the master fader alone. If your mix doesn't seem loud enough, turn up your monitors.
 
That's only true if the meters are reading the signal AFTER the master fader - if the meters are reading what's being summed (pre-fader), then the master fader will just be adjusting an already-clipped signal.
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Yeah and I dont know where Cool Edit's meters read from.

Without knowing how each particular program was put together, it is safer to not clip anything-EVER. Leave the master fader alone. If your mix doesn't seem loud enough, turn up your monitors.
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I think I'll take that advice. It seems like the safer way to do things.
 
The question comes down to this: do you trust Cool Edit's meter, or don't you? Right? (I trust it, cuz to my ears, my stuff doesn't sound distorted when the meter's not clipping.)

But you're saying not to come within 6 dB of clipping? Hmm...
 
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Also, I'm getting a second opinion on this, and I'll report back.
 
dobro said:
But you're saying not to come within 6 dB of clipping?
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There is no reason to mix with the highest transient above -6dbfs. 1 bit is equal to 6db of dynamic range so if you hit -6dbfs, you are using all your bits (which in a 24 bit system is not terribly important)
Line level is -12dbfs (or -15dbfs depending on the equipment) This is where your meters should be averaging. From -12 to 0 is called headroom. It is there when you need it to handle the transients. No matter what cool edit or any other program does, if you don't learn how to gain stage things properly, you will suffer the consequences. Leave the master fader alone and work within the dynamic range you have been given. You have 48db more dynamic range than anyone did (digitally) 10 years ago, if you are having a hard time staying within it, you are doing something wrong.
 
Ok then... so what about mastering?

When I EQ/Limit/Compress my final mix in the mastering process, I apply gain to increase the overall volume of the track. I limit to -0.1 db as to avoid any digital distortion from encroaching the 0db mark. Essentially speaking, isn't adding gain to a final mix, the same as adding gain while in the mixing process?

If we left everything at -6db we'd have extremely low-volume CD's, which most people won't want to purchase.... right?
 
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