Christ Has Nothing To Do With Christmas

[Blue Bear Sound]

Dear God,

Hope you got the letter,
and I pray you can make it better down here.
I don't mean a big reduction in the price of beer.
But all the people that you made in your image,
see them starving on their feet,
'Cause they don't get enough to eat... from God.

I can't believe in you.


Dear God,

Sorry to disturb you,
but I feel that I should be heard loud and clear.
We all need a big reduction in amount of tears.
And all the people that you made in your image,
see them fighting in the street,
'cos they can't make opinions meet... about God.

I can't believe in you.


Did you make disease, and the diamond blue?
Did you make mankind... after we made you??
And the devil too!


Dear God,

Don't know if you noticed,
but your name is on a lot of quotes in this book.
And us crazy humans wrote it, you should take a look.
And all the people that you made in your image,
still believing that junk is true,
well I know it ain't and so do you....


Dear God,

I can't believe in...
I don't believe in...

I won't believe in heaven and hell.
No saints, no sinners, no Devil as well.
No pearly gates, no thorny crown.
You're always letting us humans down.
The wars you bring, the babes you drown.
Those lost at sea and never found.

And it's the same the whole world 'round.
The hurt I see helps to compound,
that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost,
is just somebody's unholy hoax.
And if you're up there you'll perceive,
that my heart's here upon my sleeve.
If there's one thing I don't believe in...

It's you...

From the XTC album Skylarking
Lyric by: Andy Partridge
© Copyright 1986

 

[tremblayj]

Do have link to some of your music for the recording side of it.
This topic will never be solved in a forum over the internet so I for one am going to continue trying to learn how to record.

 

[lil_stebo]

cool man sayin what u really think very powerful but good i like it when people sa what they think,it's the only way 2 accomplish somethin.here's what i tell myself:



yo where we come from theres somethin called da freedom of speach,
it's somethin we learn but can also teach,
it's da 1 think tha helps us stand on our own 2 feet,
as a society we all need it to obtain our goal and trust me it's in reach.

 

[ch2os7]

Christ and Christmas

Well, once again the name of Christ gets battered about because of some dumb song that nobody would listen to anyhow. C'mon guys, some of you have some really less than factual facts....who says there is no credible evidence that He existed? You only hear what you want to hear and believe what you want to believe. I've been where you guys are. I was a hard core unbeliever, (a rock and roller, sex, drugs and rock and roll)... so I understand your bias. Point is, you've never been where I am as a believer, so you really can't understand why anyone believes. Oh you've got your theories but you really don't understand it. Don't be so harsh about things you don't understand, it makes you look ignorant.
Have a nice day and God bless you.

 

[wedge]

....who says there is no credible evidence that He existed? .

List me the credible evidence. And don't pussy out. If it's there, and you know it, list it.

You only hear what you want to hear and believe what you want to believe.

So do you

Point is, you've never been where I am as a believer, so you really can't understand why anyone believes.

You haven't been reading the posts carefully. I used to be a believer. If you'd like, I can make the same comment directly back to you, and say that I was once where you were, blah, blah, blah, and you can't understand my point of view, but I think you're looking down your snoot at me, and I won't respond in kind.

Oh you've got your theories but you really don't understand it. Don't be so harsh about things you don't understand, it makes you look ignorant.

You've got your theories, too. Another word for them is your faith. Also, I do understand it, and you need to learn how to accept the fact that I understand it, and yet choose to reject it. Your inability to do so makes you not only look ignorant, but illustrates that you probably are.

Have a nice day and God bless you.

Here's hoping that you actually mean't that...

 

[ch2os7]

there is no such thing as a "used to be believer". the term for that is APOSTATE.

 

[wedge]

Dude... Where's the credible evidence of Christ's existence that you spoke of? Can't list it, can ya? What a shocker...

Saying I'm an apostate in response was just a crude way of dodging the issue by calling me something derogetory. That doesn't reflect well on you at all. Very childish, really. As a Christian, shouldn't you have compassion for me, instead of barbing me with a fancy word that's actually quite insulting? At the very least, if you claim that there's credible historic evidence of Christ's existence, you should be able to reference it to a reasonable degree. Otherwise, your faith is just that: faith. And that's fine. I don't for a moment think that everyone else should believe and define existence as I do. All I was doing was stating my personal opinion that Christ is a myth. That's not Christ-bashing. Just an honest expression of ideas in a free society.

BTW, just for the record, I do believe in God and the love of God. I just don't define God through any of man's current religions.

 

[Jay Tea]

Dude... Where's the credible evidence of Christ's existence that you spoke of? Can't list it, can ya? What a shocker...

May be dangerous territory for a newbie to be venturing in here but I'll try to tread lightly....

What would you consider credible evidence for something of that time period? As I understand it, there are certain literary tests that are typically used to test the reliability of ancient manuscripts, and the Bible is far more reliable than any of its contemporaries. Now, I'm no literary scholar (though I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night), but I am willing to trust those who know more than I do.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

The bible, along with religion, is completely man-made..... so how could that ever be considered credible evidence???

It's no more credible than a Stephen King novel would be a couple of thousand years from now..........

 

[Jay Tea]

The bible, along with religion, is completely man-made..... so how could that ever be considered credible evidence???

It's no more credible than a Stephen King novel would be a couple of thousand years from now..........

To some extent, the Bible's nature as completely manmade is the only germane subject of debate here, as it's far and away the largest source for information on Christ. Christ stands or falls with the Bible.

And even if it is man-made...*shrug* History textbooks are equally man-made. Are they in-credible? Unless, I guess, by man-made, you also implied fictional. In which case, again, that's really the topic under discussion.

 

[mawtangent]

Non-Biblical historical references to Jesus Christ

"Although references to Jesus Christ by early secular historians are meager, such references do exist. Cornelius Tacitus, a respected first-century Roman historian, wrote:"The name [Christian] is derived from Christ, whom the procurator Pontius Pilate had executed in the reign of Tiberius." Suctonius and Pliny the Younger, other Roman writers of the time, also referred to Christ. In addition, Flavius Josephus, a first-century Jewish historian, wrote of James, whom he identified as "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ."
The New Encyclopoedia Britannica thus concludes:"These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries."

-from the book The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived.

 

[protein]

I'm pretty sure that there was a guy called Jesus (or more accurately "Eesho") in the middle East 2000 years ago. Then again there was a guy called David Koresh and another called Abu al-Qasim Muhammad Ibn Abd Allah Ibn Abd al-Muttalib
Ibn Hashim (Mohammed).

Imagine a fanatical fan of Bono from U2 told you Bono's life story. How much baring on his actual life would that have?

There was undoubtedly a Palestinian man called Jesus who lived in the middle east two thousand years ago. He was fairly popular and caused quiote a stir. Think how the story of his life has changed over the years. Have you ever played chinese whispers? Have you ever played chinese whispers with people who believe wholeheartedly in magic, miracles and deities for a period of twenty centuries?

 

[jalbert]

Maybe what this guy's song says is true but if it means I shouldn't listen to Chuck Berry sing "Run, Run, Rudolph", Otis Redding doing "Merry Christmas, Baby" or Leroy Carr's "Christmas In Jail-Ain't That A Pain" than you can keep the truth.

By the way I'm Jewish.

 

[protein]

Ah, Do you know of many Jewish people called "Bloomfield"? That's my surname. I get the feeling that at some point my father's side of the famly might have been Jews but I'm only guessing.

 

[ch2os7]

Dude... Where's the credible evidence of Christ's existence that you spoke of? Can't list it, can ya? What a shocker...

Saying I'm an apostate in response was just a crude way of dodging the issue by calling me something derogetory. That doesn't reflect well on you at all. Very childish, really. As a Christian, shouldn't you have compassion for me, instead of barbing me with a fancy word that's actually quite insulting? At the very least, if you claim that there's credible historic evidence of Christ's existence, you should be able to reference it to a reasonable degree. Otherwise, your faith is just that: faith. And that's fine. I don't for a moment think that everyone else should believe and define existence as I do. All I was doing was stating my personal opinion that Christ is a myth. That's not Christ-bashing. Just an honest expression of ideas in a free society.

BTW, just for the record, I do believe in God and the love of God. I just don't define God through any of man's current religions.

The credible evidence of the existence of Jesus Christ is a historical fact. Tacitus, perhaps the greatest Roman historian born in the first century, speaks of Jesus. Josephus, a Jewish historian born A.D. 37, tells of the crucifixion of Jesus. A contemporary Bible scholar said that "the latest edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica uses 20,000 words in describing Jesus. His description took more space than was given to Aristotle, Cicero, Alexander, Julius Caesar, Buddha, Confucius, Mohammed or Napoleon Bonaparte." The New Testament, which has proven historically accurate through archaeology and continues to prove historically accurate gives eyewitness accounts of the existence of Jesus. By the way, I've heard a lot of people deny that HE was God or God's son but I don't believe I've ever heard anyone deny that HE even existed. Let me suggest that you pick up a copy of Lee Strobel's "THE CASE FOR CHRIST" and read it. I have read it and it is good. Another book is Josh McDowell's "Evidence That Demands A Verdict".
You are right, I guess I came off with an attitude and I apologize for that. An apostate is someone who knows the truth and rejects it. That is what you said in your own words. You said you used to believe but now you choose to reject it. I wasn't trying to be insulting...well...not entirely...but I get really fed up with the Christ bashers that take every opportunity to malign the faith of others even when the situation doesn't call for it. The fact that Christ has nothing to do with Christmas is probably true in a purely historical sense. We know the Dec. 25th date was not the real date of His birth. However,countless millions of people have experienced changed lives after placing their faith in Jesus. In a free society, you can say He didn't exist but there are a lot of us who know better. I'm really perplexed that you deny HIS existence. I know you can't prove a negative but can you give any evidence that HE didn'texist? I am interested in knowing on what your beliefs are based. Well, anyhow, the Bible tells us that God has revealed Himself to us through His Son, Jesus Christ. If you choose not to believe that, then I can respect that. I just don't respect it when you try to trash the faith of others just because you reject it. If you will allow me one more tongue-in-cheek jabb: Jesus Christ is probably the single most polarizing personality in history. Millions of volumes have been written about HIM. Don't you think its amazing that you have been chosen as one who has been enlightened to expose the myth of HIS existence?

 

[wedge]

The credible evidence of the existence of Jesus Christ is a historical fact. Tacitus, perhaps the greatest Roman historian born in the first century, speaks of Jesus. Josephus, a Jewish historian born A.D. 37, tells of the crucifixion of Jesus.

I need to slice through some brine in order to clarify some things. First off, I do believe that Jesus existed. I agree that there's a reasonable amount of historical evidence to reasonably conclude that a leader of the Jews named Jesus did in fact exist, and that his wonderful, progressive philosophies shook the Jewish hierarchy to its core. Those references don't prove that he existed, but it gives the argument significant weight. The myth, in my opinion, is his supposed supernatural, god-like nature. No less than one of our nation's founding fathers, and the author of the Declaration of Independence -- Thomas Jefferson -- held the same view as mine, to the point of editing the Gospels; taking out all of the verbage describing miracles and Jesus' god-like nature. Go to your local Border's or Barnes & Noble and ask for a copy. It's called The Jefferson Bible. This just in: Thomas Jefferson was a pretty freaking smart human.

A contemporary Bible scholar said that "the latest edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica uses 20,000 words in describing Jesus. His description took more space than was given to Aristotle, Cicero, Alexander, Julius Caesar, Buddha, Confucius, Mohammed or Napoleon Bonaparte."

Come on, now. That doesn't prove anything. In fact, given that the Encyclopedia Britanica is a very Western document, and Christianity thrives in the west, it's no surprise that he'd be featured so dominantly. It certainly doesn't prove his existence or his god-like nature, because it's after-the-fact, and preaching to the choir, really. Dig up a similar encyclopedia in India or China or Iran, with as dominant an entry regarding Jesus, and then I'll be impressed.

The New Testament, which has proven historically accurate through archaeology and continues to prove historically accurate gives eyewitness accounts of the existence of Jesus.

I don't think that I'm going too far out on a limb when I say that the historical accuracy of the New Testament is a contentious issue among historians. Your implication that it's an excepted, unquestioned fact is a bit hyberbolic.

By the way, I've heard a lot of people deny that HE was God or God's son but I don't believe I've ever heard anyone deny that HE even existed. Let me suggest that you pick up a copy of Lee Strobel's "THE CASE FOR CHRIST" and read it. I have read it and it is good. Another book is Josh McDowell's "Evidence That Demands A Verdict".

Just for the record, there are those who believe that even the man-Jesus didn't exist. Troll the right isles in your local bookstore, and you'll find a tome or two expounding that point of view.

You are right, I guess I came off with an attitude and I apologize for that. An apostate is someone who knows the truth and rejects it. That is what you said in your own words. You said you used to believe but now you choose to reject it.

I shouldn't have used the term "reject". I walked right into your half of the argument. The fact is, I just don't believe that Jesus is the son of God, and I don't think that he's a diety; a saviour of mankind; the Christ. So, it's not a rejection, really, but a shift in my mind and heart about what the truth is. Clearly, you've come to your conclusions, and if it works for you, that's great. Personally, I don't need the Christ to know God. I already do know God, and always have. But, I can see the power in the story of the Christ, and how it can resonate clearly and profoundly with some folks. Some people, I guess, do need Christ to know God. And if that's what it takes, more power to them. Just don't get archaic and freaky and wierd and dig through obscure Old Testament writings that convince you that Armagedon is on it's way, and that if a person doesn't accept Christ as his saviour, then he's going to hell. Just follow the teachings of Jesus, most notably: Love thy Neighbor. Simple, but incredibly profound. If everybody did it, it would change the world in a day...

Don't you think its amazing that you have been chosen as one who has been enlightened to expose the myth of HIS existence?

Interesting. I'm not sure that I know what you mean by this.

 

[ch2os7]

Truce...ok?

You are right, I have come to my conclusions as have you. I agree, Jefferson was an intelligent man. He was a deist. Deism is the belief that God created the universe and then abandoned it and is not involved in it. It doen't sound like you are a deist. My reference to ignorance in my first reply was not meant to be an insult to your intelligence. I perceive you to be very intelligent. Many intelligent people reject Jesus. Some even reject God. On the other hand some intelligent people believe very strongly in Jesus. Intelligence and faith are sometimes hard to reconcile.
You make a good defense of your position. I just disagree with it.
Let me give you something to think about. You believe the teachings of Jesus were good. Right? Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. He said He would be raised from the dead. He said no man comes to the Father but by Him. I believe it was Josh McDowell that said that if Jesus wasn't who He claimed to be then He was a deceiver and a liar. He couldn't be a great teacher and a good man if He was being dishonest about who He was. His teachings were good. They were consistent with His claims about His identity and His claims about His identity were consistent with His teachings.
I am a Christian by choice and by conviction. You are free to believe what you choose and you are free to express your beliefs. I thought you were too harsh and it caused me to respond in kind. I am sorry if I sounded insulting.
BTW what kind of music do you write?

 

[jalbert]

Thomas Jefferson was not a smart human being. He was an asshole. I think this is proven solely by the fact that he was a slave owner. The old argument is that he, and so many others, were prisoners of the times they lived in. That the ownership of slaves was seen as normal at that time and therefore his actions were justified. This just isn't true. Since the very beginning of slavery there have been people who understood that it was wrong and in Jefferson's time there were certainly plenty. He simply was not one of them.
Sorry if this is off topic.

 

[wedge]

Jalbert...

You make a good point. Jefferson's attitude towards slaves is not his shining moment, by far, and on that issue he deserves harsh criticism. However, he did write the Declaration of Independence, and was a driving force in the creation of the Constitution of the United States. Two incredible documents that have stood the test of time and that make our nation's existence possible, flawed though it is. It's interesting to note that in the preamble to the Declaration of Independence, he doesn't qualify who "We, the People" are. Given his attitudes towards Africans and slaves in general, he could easily have specified "We, the rich, land-owning White People of the United States of America", but he didn't. He wrote a wonderful piece of open-ended prose that applies to all humans equally, should they be American citizens. You have to give him credit for that.

He also made the Louisiana Purchase, which doubled the land mass of the United States in one cheap, fell swoop. We ripped off the French, in other words. That was Jefferson's crafty doing.

He designed and built Monticello in Charlottesville, Virgina: A structure regarded by many to be a brilliant architechural acheivement. He founded the University of Virginia in the same town.

Flawed & complex? Sure. An asshole? In the realm of race relations, I'd have to agree with you. But certainly, in many ways, a very smart and unusually progressive individual, as were most of the founding fathers...

 

[ch2os7]

Jalbert

Jefferson's intelligence is evident but you are right, he did a stupid thing in owning slaves. There is no way to defend that. Good point, Wedge.