Christ Has Nothing To Do With Christmas

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Wedge,
You are entitled to your opinion and perhaps I was a little harsh with my language but I still do not believe we owe Jefferson anything.
It is not the Founding Fathers nor any of documents they concieved that make the existence of this country possible. It is the people of this country that make it's existence possible. ALL the people. And the enslaving of any of them is the most severe and damaging sin one can commit against the union.
I also do not think we should applaud him for leaving out exclusionary language from the Declaration of Independence at a time when he should have been fighting for the rights of all americans. Whatever their race or economic standing.
And the Louisiana purchase might have been good for the colonists but it was a certain, eventual death sentence for the hundreds of thousands(if not more) who already inhabited that land. Maybe the French would have done the same anyway. But they didn't, we did.
Perhaps he accomplished as much as he could without upsetting his position in society and government. But then he should be seen as such. Not as a man who took every risk and opportunity set before him in the cause of humanitarianism.
 
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Heres a good answer to Blue Bear Sound's poem


The Barber Who Believed That God Doesn't Exist:

A man went to a barber shop to have his hair and his beard cut as
always. He started to have a good conversation with the barber
who attended him. They talked about so many things and various
subjects.

Suddenly, they touched the subject of God. The barber said: "Look man, I don't believe that God exists as you say so."
"Why do you say that?" Asked the client.
Well, it's so easy, you just have to go out in the street to
realize that God does not exist. Oh, tell me, if God existed, would there
be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be no suffering nor pain.
I can't think of a God who permits all of these things."
The client stopped for a moment thinking but he didn't want to respond so as to prevent an argument.

The barber finished his job and the client went out of the shop.
Just after he left the barber shop he saw a man in the street with a long hair and beard
(it seems that it had been a long time since he had his cut and he looked so untidy).
Then the client again entered the barber shop and he said to the barber: "know what? Barbers do not exist."
"How come they don't exist?" asked the barber. "Well I am here
and I am a barber."
"No!" - the client exclaimed. "They don't exist because if they did
there would be no people with long hair and beard like that man who walks in the street."
"Ah, barbers do exist, what happens is that people do not come to me."
"Exactly!"- affirmed the client. "That's the point. God does exist,
what happens is people don't go to Him and do not look for Him that's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."
 
TMA said:
Heres a good answer to Blue Bear Sound's poem
You don't read very well, do you.... that's not mine - it's a song by the group XTC......

And there's no "answer" to it - it's simply someone's perspective.....
 
ch2os7... Definitely, a truce! I think that we've both presented ourselves with intelligence and defended our points of view well. That's all one can ask with such a contentious subject. Your last question put to me about trusting the validity of *all* of Jesus' words is really the crux of the matter. I haven't read Jefferson's Bible. I wonder how he handles it? No matter, it's a point worthy of pondering, and I will...

My music -- for lack of a shorter, more accurate descriptor -- is kinda like a cross between the Beatles and Radiohead, if you can imagine that. Melodic, with harmonies and interesting chord progressions, but kinda moody and wierd at the same time. Stylisticly, each song varies quite a bit, though. I've got happy, upbeat, goofy stuff, all the way to dark, creepy, emotional tunes. What's your stuff like?
 
wedge,
I am a Beatles fan, a product of the 60's and 70's. I'm older than you thought huh? That sounds like an interesting combination. Do you have any MP3's posted? I'd like to hear your work.
I am not a good writer. That is one reason I visited this bbs. I am not a good lyricist. Melodies are not a problem for me but lyrics are. I really admire people who can sculpt words. I've written a few songs but I really don't like my lyrics. I figure if they don't do anything for me, they won't do anything for others either.
Any tips?
 
ch2os7...

I've always found lyrics to be the hardest part, too, but I've learned a lot from a songwriter/bandmate of mine who is quite naturally good at lyrics. I'd say, write whatever flows with the music, but if it seems hackneyed or cliched, or just plain silly, then twist things around to make it more original. Instead of saying "I love you", for instance, say "I don't like you" or "You smell bad" or "I love your toes". You get the idea. Take it one line at a time and try to strip out the "heard it before" vibe, until it sounds like something new... And concentrate as intensely on the details in the verses as in the chorus. A line about messy hair could be twisted to "Medussa's visage" or the like... Anyhow, that's my two cents...

wedge
 
Thanks wedge,That's my biggest problem, everything is worn out and overused. I think that's part of the gift of writing lyrics. It's a whole new way of thinking. I understand what you mean, I just have difficulty think in original sounding phrases. I guess it would help me to find a writing partner with experience. I have a friend who is a writing machine. He does lyrics and melodies. I think its a gift. Can it really be learned? I guess it can but the person with the natural ability will always have an edge. What do you think?
 
jalbert said:
Thomas Jefferson was not a smart human being. He was an asshole. I think this is proven solely by the fact that he was a slave owner.
Sorry if this is off topic.
I'm willing to bet that a good amount of your Clothing, Shoes and household products were made by the modern equivalent of slave labor. Now just because you don't see them toiling away in your backyard does'nt make you or me any less of an ASshole than Jefferson was for owning Slaves. Now for fucking them ....you may have something there. We all bennefit from slave labor and sweatshops in the western world. We are all slave owners. Think about that when you buy your next pair of pants or sneakers, then wear them to church on Sunday and call yourself a Christian.
 
Be Loveless said:
I'm willing to bet that a good amount of your Clothing, Shoes and household products were made by the modern equivalent of slave labor. Now just because you don't see them toiling away in your backyard does'nt make you or me any less of an ASshole than Jefferson was for owning Slaves. Now for fucking them ....you may have something there. We all bennefit from slave labor and sweatshops in the western world. We are all slave owners. Think about that when you buy your next pair of pants or sneakers, then wear them to church on Sunday and call yourself a Christian.
Perhaps as you say we are all slave owners, myself included. But I don't see anyone writing anything extolling my exploits as a champion for the freedom of mankind. And if anyone were to do so I would be the first to tear down my own false image just as fast as I am willing to tear down Jefferson's. It's one thing to pretend that all of us who have never bought or sold another human being are, as a result, free from wrongdoing. It's something else altogether to raise one who has commited such an act to the level of a patron saint of justice and equality. And if I were to, as you say, "see them toiling in my backyard" I like to think that it might somehow inspire me to change my evil ways. Jefferson saw them out there every day of his life and didn't bat an eye.
Also my mother would be upset if I called myself a Christian and went to church on Sunday. I'm Jewish.
 
protein said:
I don't mean to offend anyone or anything but I personally find people who take the bible literally really, really scary. Adam and Eve? Sheesh!

Of all the gods from all the religions I think I'd have to go with Thor. The most rock and roll of gods. :)

Ganesh is the coolest looking though. Buddha was the wisest but he wasn't technically a god. He was just a man with good ideas. Much like Jesus.
But Buddha stayed dead.
 
Am I right that the first ever writings about Jesus were written over 30 years after his death? And then from word of mouth sources presumaby?

It's like sitting down now to write the life story of Martin Luther King, based only on supporter's recollections and memories of what he said (including quotes), no other sources such as printed word, no newspapers, no video footage, or other records. Inevitably things would not be, shall we say, too accurate. Add to that the fact that those writing the story have an angle, in that they themselves believe and want to spread the word, they are not impartial recorders of events, also that its a time of ignorance and superstition, that most people are illiterate, and well... let's say it's open to wild exageration.

And yet, that's the reality of the writing of the new testament which some would have us believe is absolute truth!
 
brich2929 said:
But Buddha stayed dead.
Yup.

Do you believe that a dead guy that lived thousands of years ago is

a) a dead guy who lived thousands of years ago

or

b) a zombie who came back from the dead because his dad wasn't his dad, actually his dad was a thing called "God" - an invisible ominipotent force that created the whole universe recently in only days leaving a load of false clues hinting at evolution and scientific evidence to the countrary to test our faith. His mother was a virgin who was raped by an angel, he could walk on water and do fantastic magic tricks including turning water into wine and making blind people see again. Although he was executed for breaking the law and claiming he was king what he was actually doing was dying for our sins. That all makes sense doesn't it?
 
There's an interesting expression for this sort of discussion - "Rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic".

What about the hope for the future that the Bible holds out? Don't see anyone here talking about that.

Oh well. The people who are looking for the answers will find them. Those who don't, won't.

Is there a higher power than ourselves?
 
unbelievers

Hey, you guys that don't believe are within your rights to express your unbelief. HOWEVER, I haven't seen any believers ridiculing your unbelief. I haven't seen any believers ridiculing your explanatiion for our existence, the theory of evolution. Which is as ridiculous to us as you say the resurrection of Christ is to you. This controversy isn't going away. It's been around a lot longer than you and me.
Are you repeating these same old tired and worn out put-downs to try to convince those of us who believe? or yourselves?
I don't understand why something you dismiss out of hand brings out such venomous hatred in you. I don't believe in Santa, evolution, or the tooth fairy but I don't feel the need to spew out my opinion with such incredulity and hatred. One day when we die, we'll find out who is right and who is wrong. If you are right I will be no worse off for what I believe...if I am right, you will be far worse off for your unbelief.
In the meantime, I don't think you are stupid, I respect your difference of opinion but I resent your attempt to make me look and feel stupid because I believe in Jesus Christ. Tolerance my friend, we still have to co-exist here on the same planet. I think we should be able to do that with dignity.
 
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jalbert said:
Perhaps as you say we are all slave owners, myself included. But I don't see anyone writing anything extolling my exploits as a champion for the freedom of mankind. And if anyone were to do so I would be the first to tear down my own false image just as fast as I am willing to tear down Jefferson's. It's one thing to pretend that all of us who have never bought or sold another human being are, as a result, free from wrongdoing. It's something else altogether to raise one who has commited such an act to the level of a patron saint of justice and equality. And if I were to, as you say, "see them toiling in my backyard" I like to think that it might somehow inspire me to change my evil ways. Jefferson saw them out there every day of his life and didn't bat an eye.
Also my mother would be upset if I called myself a Christian and went to church on Sunday. I'm Jewish.
But my point is that ANY man who has been extolled or looked up to in this country since the time of Jefferson has bennefitted from slave labor, including the abolitionists. The only reason that we don't "see" them toiling away is because we choose not too. Now I'm not saying that the founding fathers were saints they were business men who did'nt want to pay taxes anymore and convinced the common folks to take up arms for thier cause. I don't belive that they were noble or even that the cause of America was. However I think that trying to use the slave argument to discredit them is easily dismissable and hinders the argument against them. I believe that every american is to some extent a little tyrant bennefitting from a larger tyranny, I don't exclude myself. I would like to find ways to stop perpetuating the slave labor state of affairs I usually buy my clothes at thrift stores, I avoid purchasing products from multinational corrporations if there is a local affordable option, but I'm not able to do this across aboard. I try my best to give small business and individuals a shot at my money before I buy from a large company. It ain't easy and I still slip and I still love convienience and in the end I'm still part of the ugly underside of capitalism.
 
ch2os7 said:
Hey, you guys that don't believe are within your rights to express your unbelief. HOWEVER, I haven't seen any believers ridiculing your unbelief. I haven't seen any believers ridiculing your explanatiion for our existence, the theory of evolution. Which is as ridiculous to us as you say the resurrection of Christ is to you. This controversy isn't going away. It's been around a lot longer than you and me.
Are you repeating these same old tired and worn out put-downs to try to convince those of us who believe? or yourselves?
I don't understand why something you dismiss out of hand brings out such venomous hatred in you. I don't believe in Santa, evolution, or the tooth fairy but I don't feel the need to spew out my opinion with such incredulity and hatred. One day when we die, we'll find out who is right and who is wrong. If you are right I will be no worse off for what I believe...if I am right, you will be far worse off for your unbelief.
In the meantime, I don't think you are stupid, I respect your difference of opinion but I resent your attempt to make me look and feel stupid because I believe in Jesus Christ. Tolerance my friend, we still have to co-exist here on the same planet. I think we should be able to do that with dignity.

It's not holding the beliefs that's the problem, it's what holding the beliefs leads people to do (actions). So you get the bible trotted out to support injustices, like denying gays equal rights, thats when the belief spills over into affecting people's lives, and thats why it matters to me what others believe.

With regard to evolution, i see nothimng ridiculous in it. It's a genuine attempt to work out why there are such a wide variations in life forms on the earth and how they all came about. It's really quite simple. We are what our genes determine. Sometimes mutations in genes give some individuals an advantage in the fight to exist. These individuals live to reproduce more succesfully and pass on the advantage to the next generation. over millions of years there are wide variations in mutations and countless species develop some die out or are out competed, some thrive for a time. Nothing stands still. The theory of evouliton can be changed as new sciemntific evidence comes to light, nothing wrong with that, it is about trying to discover the facts, not making the facts fit a religion.

And who or what kicked it all off? We don't know that. I'm content with that and don't feel the need to believe stories made up by people 2 thousand years ago as fact.

In theory I support everyone's right to religious freedom, but then they get together and start to excercise political influence and it all gets nasty. And that applies to most religions not just Christians.

If you think your religeon was made to look look ridiculous... well, all he did was state the plain facts.
 
glynb said:
Am I right that the first ever writings about Jesus were written over 30 years after his death? And then from word of mouth sources presumaby?

The writings you refer to are copies of the original texts. The ages of the copies vary for obvious reasons of the sheer number of copies in existence. The methodologies for determining the age, author and authenticity of the new testament writings are the same as the methodologies used in determining Confucious' writing or any other historical figure. Most of the scholars educated in textural criticism do not doubt the authenticity. A majority of the charges against the accuracy were indeed brought up in the 1800's but as more holy sites are opened up for scientific studies the hard scientific evidences are slowly trickling out. But believe what you want about anything you want. Its called choice and/or free will. People back then didn't believe even though they witnessed those things.

If a person discounts the new testament even though science has uncovered its more accurate than previously thought what is the motivation?

If a person uses the excuse of human fallibility to claim corruption, innacurate and bias taints history that same person removes his/her own footing. Some believe that skeptics are immune to the fallibilites they claim the others have.

As far as the bible being trotted out for injustices its true. But its not the bible per se, but humans are the root of injustice. Even in societies where the bible does not exist atrocities are committed. Communism for instance has more blood on its hands than any modern religion. But again its the stupidity of man that is the problem in communism. Greed and power have been why people die.
Hitler burned the bible and made himself to be worshipped just like the Romans and they were guilty of more horrible crimes than all of religion combined.

When people use the bible incorrectly those people should be called out. Why are the not called out? Is it because people know if they call out people individually then the excuse of hating the group they fear will not be furthered. Isn't that why the crusades and spanish inquisition are mentioned so much in anti-christian rhetoric? Because its fuel for hatred or should I say a handy way of justifying their hatred. But is an illogical conclusion to blame all of Christianity for something that was a violation of the tenets of Christianity.

Beliefs do spill over into lives and no belief is immune.

SoMm
 
tremblayj said:
Just do a little research on what the catholics used to do and you will find out why christians and catholics are different.

What the catholics used to do!?

Catholics are the original Christians!!!!

:rolleyes:
 
Err... no. There is a big difference between the teachings of Christ and the teachings of Catholicism.
 
Okay, so where did the Catholics spring from then? Catholicism is just another brand of christianity. You have anglicans, orthadox Russian, orthadox greek, voodoo, baptists, protistants, church of England, Seventh-Day Adventists as well as the many right wing christian cults and sects.

Other religions have their splits too. Sunnis & Shi`ites. Hindus & Hare Krisna, Diamond way buddhists & Mahayana buddhists, Taoists, Janists, Animists...

Do you think that the pictures of the bearded Italian guy in your church are an accurate representation of that Palastinian Jewish carpenter who died 2000 years ago? Why is he represented as an Italian? Where did that come from if it wasn't because of the Italians embracing and spreading christianity around the world until the split from centralised Roman control by Henry III?

Have you even heard of Henry III? Did you do history at school? Does your religion tell you nothing about the history of your church and country? Do you know the fundamentals of the other kinds of christianity or other religions available or do you just blindly do and believe what you are told to because your parents did the same?
 
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