Christ Has Nothing To Do With Christmas

[protein]

Here's a picture of "jesus".

Here's a picture of a Palastinian.

Here's an Italian.

Here's another picture of Jesus as painted in Italy in 1230 AD

In the earliest known Christian house-church at Doura Europus on the upper Euphrates there is a painting of Jesus dating to about 240 A.D. In the painting, Christ, a beardless young man is dressed in a tunic.

"Many pre-sixth-century portraits of Jesus show him as an
Apollo-like, beardless youth. Others, although of a bearded, long-haired type,
lack the precision, frontality, uniformity of features, and Vignon facial
markings so predominant from the sixth century on. Writing in the fifth
century, St. Augustine complained that the portraits of Jesus in is time were
'innumerable in concept and design' for the good reason that 'We do not
know of his external appearance, nor that of his mother.' The change came
only in the sixth century."
- Ian Wilson, The Mysterious Shroud (1986)

This fat naked guy is Jesus as he appears on the Cistine Chapel.

The fact is, nobody knows what this guy looked like so whoever controlled christianity controlled the way he looked. Next time you look at your thin and beautiful Italian Jesus, ask yourself why he doesn't look middle eastern at all and consider that possibly, maybe that christianity was once squarely in the hands of the Roman Catholics and that the christianity you practice could possibly, maybe be a decendent of earlier types of christianity.

 

[jalbert]

But my point is that ANY man who has been extolled or looked up to in this country since the time of Jefferson has bennefitted from slave labor, including the abolitionists. The only reason that we don't "see" them toiling away is because we choose not too. Now I'm not saying that the founding fathers were saints they were business men who did'nt want to pay taxes anymore and convinced the common folks to take up arms for thier cause. I don't belive that they were noble or even that the cause of America was. However I think that trying to use the slave argument to discredit them is easily dismissable and hinders the argument against them. I believe that every american is to some extent a little tyrant bennefitting from a larger tyranny, I don't exclude myself. I would like to find ways to stop perpetuating the slave labor state of affairs I usually buy my clothes at thrift stores, I avoid purchasing products from multinational corrporations if there is a local affordable option, but I'm not able to do this across aboard. I try my best to give small business and individuals a shot at my money before I buy from a large company. It ain't easy and I still slip and I still love convienience and in the end I'm still part of the ugly underside of capitalism.

You make a good point and I don't think our views are all that dissimilar. The only part I have a problem with where you say that the slavery argument is easily dismissable since everyone(great and small) in american history is in someway culpable. Even if we were to say that the purchasing today of goods made by slave labor is tantamount to being an actual slave owner(which I don't agree with for reasons I'll explain in a moment) that is still no reason to excuse or ignore anyone's behavior, be it a former president/founding father of this country or us ourselves. You seem willing to condemn yourself for these trespasses(which while it may be noble and honest does little to awaken others to the situation) but hesitant to apply the same standard to those seen as heroes through the eyes of history. And if we all are guilty of these crimes than it's time that we were all held accountable, especially those who we've set as rolemodels of freedom for future generations.
As for the comparison between consumers in this country today and slave owners of yore, I'll just say this. At this moment all over this country there are mothers and fathers who struggle to provide for themselves and their families. Can you really say that a parent(perhaps even someone whose great grandfather was owned by Thomas Jefferson) that goes to Kmart and buys their kids a pair of ultra cheap sneakers might as well go over to the factory where they were made in southeast asia with a bullwhip and give the workers a couple of lashes? There are degrees of culpability and there are degrees of evil. There also degrees of punishment and shame that should be applied to each.

 

[ch2os7]

If you think your religeon was made to look look ridiculous... well, all he did was state the plain facts.[/QUOTE]
That was an inaccurate quote. I said, "I resent your attempt to make me look and feel stupid because I believe in Jesus Christ." I didn't say you were successful. What plain facts? ok, sure, whatever! I didn't realize gay rights was your "rub". That explains it. How about this...lets talk about songwriting. This discussion is futile.

 

[capnreverb]

As Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull sang

"Christmas spirit is not what you drink"

 

[glynb]

If you think your religeon was made to look look ridiculous... well, all he did was state the plain facts.

That was an inaccurate quote. I said, "I resent your attempt to make me look and feel stupid because I believe in Jesus Christ." I didn't say you were successful. What plain facts? ok, sure, whatever! I didn't realize gay rights was your "rub". That explains it. How about this...lets talk about songwriting. This discussion is futile.[/QUOTE]

Well you're right about the futility i guess we can agree on that. Gay rights was just an example, there are many other examples of religious belief spilling over into affecting people's lives like Islam and its treatment of women which is another example I could have used. It was just to make the point that religeon is not just a belief system in someones head, if it was only that it wouldn't matter to me. Religeon affects the way people ACT in the world and that affects others who may not share that religeous belief, thats when you get the big problems.

I'd use the analogy of smoking. In theory it's OK for someone to smoke because it doesn't affect anyone else, the smokers argue they are only destroying their own health and they are free to do that? Wrong, passive smoking affects other people too and the health problems caused by smoking affects all of society, just like car exhaust fumes affect non-drivers. So religeon is like smoking, a private habit which has real consequences for others who don't want to be involved with it in any way.

Oh, with regard to the Romans and cruelty, the Romans DID have a set of religious beliefs, they were not godless. People are capable of great cruelty, regardless of whether they have a religeous creed...someone mentioned the Catholic church, now there's a history of barbarity...

 

[protein]

I agree with that. It's fine in theory if you keep it in your own home.

Sadly we have people like George Bush and his puppet Tony Blair who feel like they are on a christian crusade to rid the world of an "axis of evil". Often George will talk of "god" and use phrases like "god willing"."I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." - Genuine Bush quote.

In George's attempt to rid the world of evil he has killed thousands upon thousands of innocent people, thousands of army conscripts and even hundreds of his own army, not to mention the hundreds if not thousands that will die in retaliatory attacks by terrorists who feel that his war against Islamic states is getting out of hand.

What happens of you take religion out of the picture?

 

[knightsy]

What happens of you take religion out of the picture?

People would find a different excuse to take each other's land by force.

 

[wedge]

ch2os7

My tendency is to think that songwriting -- at a least prolific, mostly above-average songwriting ability -- is indeed a gift. I'm an artist, and I think that gives me an advantage, because artists tend to think laterally instead of linearly. That makes coming up with unexpected musical and lyrical combinations inherently easier. Possibly, your thinking process is mostly linear. I'm not sure if it's possible to gain the knack to be a prolific and original songwriter, but I do think that it's possible for folks who think in a linear fashion to learn techniques that foster lateral thinking. By the way, lateral vs. linear can also be conceptualized as right-brain vs. left-brain. As you probably already know, the left hemisphere of the brain manages mental tasks that require linear thinking, such as math and planning. The right hemisphere deals with processes of a less tangible nature, such as insight (eureka!) and emotion. A sign of potentially being a right-brained (creative) person is being left-handed, because each hemisphere of the brain controls it's opposite side of the body. Check out this book on amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_3/104-0607210-4564720?v=glance&s=books

I believe it's about increasing your right-brain dominance, in order to become more creative and thusly improve your drawing skills. I realize that drawing isn't the issue here, but once a breakthrough is made, you'll probably find yourself being more creative across all muses...

 

[ch2os7]

Gifted to write?

Wedge,
I see what you are saying. It's interesting that as a teacher, I think in more linear terms because my profession requires it.
What about inspiration? Sometimes I feel so uninspired. How much do you rely on inspiration in your writing?
I have written a couple of songs that seemed to just flow but most of the time, it is laborous for me to write.
I'll check out the book....thanks.

 

[ch2os7]

glynb

It's not holding the beliefs that's the problem, it's what holding the beliefs leads people to do (actions). So you get the bible trotted out to support injustices, like denying gays equal rights, thats when the belief spills over into affecting people's lives, and thats why it matters to me what others believe.

Everybody has beliefs....some are religiously based and some are secular beliefs. You are right. Our beliefs affect our actions. My beliefs prompted me to post my protest to what I perceived as unjustified Christian bashing. Apparently, your beliefs affected your actions and caused you to respond. So you see, it is not only those with religious beliefs who are influenced as to how they interact with other people. You say people use the Bible to support injustices but somehow I doubt that you see the injustice in slandering all Christians because you disagree with the actions of some. I agree, there has been much injustice in the name of Christianity, but there has been much injustice against Christianity too.

 

[jayster10125]

i'm afraid of americans

i'm afraid of the world

i'm afraid i can't help it

i'm afraid i can't...

God is an american

I really don't want to get into this three pages of thread arguments. I feel the best "religion" is the lack thereof. I'm not completely sure what Bowie was trying to say in that song, but hey...isn't this a musician's site???

Peace everyone.