bouldersoundguy
Well-known member
Maybe tilt the amp up so you're hearing the speaker on axis. The highs drop off rapidly as the angle increases. What the mic hears on axis might be quite different from what you're hearing at 45⁰.
Old Music Guy
Active member
Old Music Guy
Active member
Honestly, that never occurred to me. I have a very small space. My amp ( a 40W Fender w/1X12) is way overkill for what I need). My recordings are always too shrill, with absolutely no bottom. I don't turn it up more than 2, not even enough to heat the tubes.I gotta try that myself.
I've done that on stage, never at home.
I have a smaller Champ 20 that I might try, but the suggestion of a 45 degree tilt is great. Thanks
Or, maybe I need to build an isolation room, and let that Fender scream!
60's guy
Well-known member
Same here 'cept I've also done it at home. Place a single SM57 midway between the cone and edge of either right or left speaker of the amp and record it. It's not exactly rocket science to capture what the mic is actually *hearing/transmitting* to your DAW or standalone recorder provided it that that your recorder is recording a *clean* signal to an assigned channel completely free of *presets*.I gotta try that myself.
But what the hell do I know? I'm just another "old guy".
Old Music Guy
Active member
I'll tell you a secret. SHHHH!
A friend of mine is a bass player, and played with some serious people. Serious enough to get him 2 platinum records (I'll tell you later his reaction when his girlfriend dropped one out of a window). He went on to produce in a studio in Virginia. (That's also another story). Anyway, I was looking for a bunch of mics to record my drums and I needed about 8. I wasn't in the mood to drop $800 on 57s, so I asked him what would be a good substitute. Without hesitation, he said "get Pyles, you won't go wrong." So I bought 5.
At the time I bought them, on Amazonian, they were $10.99. Some were balanced with XLRs on both ends, some were unbalanced (there is a trick to turn an unbalanced to a balanced without a transformer).
That was about 5 or 6 years ago. I still use them.
I used 57s almost my whole professional life (though, I do have a soft spot for the old "Bull Moose SM55). They ain't Neumanns, but they don't suck for the $$$.
R
RFR
Well-known member
A tilted amp has other benefits.I gotta try that myself.
My room has concrete floors with some rugs
i tilt my amps all the time.Honestly, that never occurred to me. I have a very small space. My amp ( a 40W Fender w/1X12) is way overkill for what I need). My recordings are always too shrill, with absolutely no bottom. I don't turn it up more than 2, not even enough to heat the tubes.
I have a smaller Champ 20 that I might try, but the suggestion of a 45 degree tilt is great. Thanks
Or, maybe I need to build an isolation room, and let that Fender scream!
My studio has concrete floors with a few rugs. Sometimes a combo amp sitting flat on the floor sounds like I have a cabinet rattle. Throw a 2X4 under the front of the amp to tilt it back some…. Bam! Rattle gone.
I figure something in the room is vibrating when the amp is on concrete.
Steenamaroo
...
Old Music Guy
Active member
R
RFR
Well-known member
At least this thread is finally fun again. 
MATGA. ( make all threads great again) ;-)
MATGA. ( make all threads great again) ;-)
S
Simplex09
Member
Thanks Dave for the info! I want to change out my Twins speakers with C75 or vintage 30 later down the road.
S
Simplex09
Member
So I went out today and bought a brand new Ernie Ball cable because my fender cables were giving me so much static when playing and it was hard to get them to work because it would be cutting in and out when playing.
Although I recorded these short audio clips and I think in my opinion that its getting a bit better than even a day ago. I will be trying to plug the guitar straight into the Scarlett after this.
So for this test I tired a few things different to see if that would help that users suggested here.
Twin Reverb On its 'Back Legs' so its angled towards the ceiling/wall and (Amp is facing the wall because I heard that creates more lowends)
Guitar straight into the Twin without any pedals.
Single SM57 going into the Scarlett.
This was also recorded using an Fender Strat with a 59n in the bridge.
Just off Dust Cap I tried my best to show in the picture.
I also borrowed a pair of Audio technica ATH-M50x and plugged that straight into the Scarlett Solo for direct monitoring listening.
Although I recorded these short audio clips and I think in my opinion that its getting a bit better than even a day ago. I will be trying to plug the guitar straight into the Scarlett after this.
So for this test I tired a few things different to see if that would help that users suggested here.
Twin Reverb On its 'Back Legs' so its angled towards the ceiling/wall and (Amp is facing the wall because I heard that creates more lowends)
Guitar straight into the Twin without any pedals.
Single SM57 going into the Scarlett.
This was also recorded using an Fender Strat with a 59n in the bridge.
Just off Dust Cap I tried my best to show in the picture.
I also borrowed a pair of Audio technica ATH-M50x and plugged that straight into the Scarlett Solo for direct monitoring listening.
Attachments
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bouldersoundguy
Well-known member
Aim the speaker at your face. If it's not pointing right at your head, you aren't hearing the actual tone coming from the speaker.
Old Music Guy
Active member
Here we go again. Build you own cables for f*ck sakes. This is so stupid.
I'm so f**king out of here.
E
ecc83
Well-known member
"I don't turn it up more than 2, not even enough to heat the tubes." Further to my "on going mission" to dispel amp myths!...
The output valves are already about as hot as they are ever going to get. Most valve amps bias their OP valves to about 77-80% of the valve's permitted dissipation (around 18W per valve) You would have to run the amp at absolutely full tilt to increase that very much (and for 40W* you would be putting out 106dB SPL and risk eviction!)
A tale about "searching for guitar tone"
My son is 52, lives in France and is a brilliant guitarist (but can play most things) He started guitar at about 12 and wanted to emulated his heroes. We had FA money but I acquired a WEM "dominator clone' and as dad was a 'tronics person he was constantly modding it to make it sound like Brian May or Angus Young or Rossi or whoever was flavour of that month at the time. Pretty much a wasted effort. Now son realizes that he can get the 'tone' he wants from pretty much any amp. No, it is not Gilmour but it IS a good sound that works for the song.
The tip about tilting the amp is a good one. We don't listen to amps on us hands and knees! Guitar speakers are also very directional past about 3kHz. Another trick is to listen to the mic on headphones. And, there was mention of cheap mics? The Behringer XM8500 is really very good for about US$30 comes in a nice, strong plastic case with a clip. Slightly more sensitive than an SM57.
New speaker? Go and listen to them before buying...VERY personal thing. The V30 in particular is a good, really tough speaker and very loud but "shouty" in the midrange and not everyone's cup of tea. The old Greenbacks are more mellow ('jazzers' love 'em) and a dB or so less sensitive. Only rated at 30 watts mind so you would need two on a 40Wamp (though you would be unlikely to blow one in practice) The Creambacks seem very popular.
*Be more, "fixed biased" amps like the Fender can deliver well over their advertised power when driven really hard, in some cases TWICE that rating. Speakers should therefore be rated with that in mind.
Dave.
The output valves are already about as hot as they are ever going to get. Most valve amps bias their OP valves to about 77-80% of the valve's permitted dissipation (around 18W per valve) You would have to run the amp at absolutely full tilt to increase that very much (and for 40W* you would be putting out 106dB SPL and risk eviction!)
A tale about "searching for guitar tone"
My son is 52, lives in France and is a brilliant guitarist (but can play most things) He started guitar at about 12 and wanted to emulated his heroes. We had FA money but I acquired a WEM "dominator clone' and as dad was a 'tronics person he was constantly modding it to make it sound like Brian May or Angus Young or Rossi or whoever was flavour of that month at the time. Pretty much a wasted effort. Now son realizes that he can get the 'tone' he wants from pretty much any amp. No, it is not Gilmour but it IS a good sound that works for the song.
The tip about tilting the amp is a good one. We don't listen to amps on us hands and knees! Guitar speakers are also very directional past about 3kHz. Another trick is to listen to the mic on headphones. And, there was mention of cheap mics? The Behringer XM8500 is really very good for about US$30 comes in a nice, strong plastic case with a clip. Slightly more sensitive than an SM57.
New speaker? Go and listen to them before buying...VERY personal thing. The V30 in particular is a good, really tough speaker and very loud but "shouty" in the midrange and not everyone's cup of tea. The old Greenbacks are more mellow ('jazzers' love 'em) and a dB or so less sensitive. Only rated at 30 watts mind so you would need two on a 40Wamp (though you would be unlikely to blow one in practice) The Creambacks seem very popular.
*Be more, "fixed biased" amps like the Fender can deliver well over their advertised power when driven really hard, in some cases TWICE that rating. Speakers should therefore be rated with that in mind.
Dave.
rob aylestone
Moderator
It's still painful. ALL the energy is in the mid and HF - there IS low frequency stuff there, but it's more percussive than 'note'.
I think nobody has mentioned (forgive me if I missed in it so many pages) that TWO mics interfere with each other - hence why there is a polarity reversal button on mixers and DAWs - the little phase symbol. One way it's thin and weedy with no bass, and the other way they blend nicely. You need to forget recording and concentrate on learning how to EQ your guitar and make playing sound better. Recording only works when you have mastered the sound and created something positive.
Stop buying stuff for the moment - and remember Fender and Ernie Ball make guitars/amps and strings - cables will be made by somebody else. If a cable crackles it is faulty. Do not be taken in by marketing hype. Next thing - do not believe all the stuff on the net about swapping speakers. The improvement this makes is VERY subtle and is a shift in the tone. As you have a sh*t tone at the moment, any spend is wasted until you get a good sound. Only then can you decide if the speaker swap will work for you. The kind of thing you have read is like the car guys - when they swap X carburettor for a different one. Most people don't even know what one is, and these guys wrap themselves around trees when they get it wrong. We just spend the money and often say "damn, I can't here the difference". Two mics is the same. Exotic cable is rarely worth doing. China factories produce whatever their customers want!
I think nobody has mentioned (forgive me if I missed in it so many pages) that TWO mics interfere with each other - hence why there is a polarity reversal button on mixers and DAWs - the little phase symbol. One way it's thin and weedy with no bass, and the other way they blend nicely. You need to forget recording and concentrate on learning how to EQ your guitar and make playing sound better. Recording only works when you have mastered the sound and created something positive.
Stop buying stuff for the moment - and remember Fender and Ernie Ball make guitars/amps and strings - cables will be made by somebody else. If a cable crackles it is faulty. Do not be taken in by marketing hype. Next thing - do not believe all the stuff on the net about swapping speakers. The improvement this makes is VERY subtle and is a shift in the tone. As you have a sh*t tone at the moment, any spend is wasted until you get a good sound. Only then can you decide if the speaker swap will work for you. The kind of thing you have read is like the car guys - when they swap X carburettor for a different one. Most people don't even know what one is, and these guys wrap themselves around trees when they get it wrong. We just spend the money and often say "damn, I can't here the difference". Two mics is the same. Exotic cable is rarely worth doing. China factories produce whatever their customers want!
Steenamaroo
...
This thread's got a million ideas back and forth now, and it's great to see so many people contributing, but I'm getting lost. 
I still feel there was some fundamental problem at the start - Not just preference...a fault.
That may have been solved by now, I'm not sure.
My gut says that either one of OPs tracks was a sum (at the desk) two signals of opposite polarity,
or that the incredibly weak recording out of the original two was the result of running the mic into line input.
I'm not totally convinced of the latter.
Either way, my advice would be in line with what a lot of the people here are saying.
1: For now, keep the setup as simple as possible.
2: Angle the guitar amplifier up so the driver is pointing at or near your head (be careful to protect your hearing, of course).
3: Dial in the controls on the amp so that you are happy with the sound in the room.
If you never achieve this ^^, come back and tell us...There's no point recording if that's the case.
4: Proceed with one mic on one driver with one XLR to XLR cable into one preamp.
My suggestion would be to pick a mic position and stick with it, for now anyway, and record.
Do several short takes, each time making an adjustment at the amp (or pedal if applicable).
More gain, less gain, more treble, less treble, etc
Note your changes as you go and listen carefully to the differences in the recordings as you go.
If you feel you're getting somewhere and it's working out then keep all the settings on the amp/pedal the same,
but repeat the process making only minor changes to the mic position.
Nearer the edge of the cone, nearer the centre, head-on, tilted 45 degrees, etc.
Once again, record, note changes, listen + repeat.
Throughout all of this make sure there are no processes or effects enabled in your recording software,
and make certain that your focusrite interface is not peaking/clipping when recording.
I believe it indicates with a green/red ring around the gain knob? If that's ever red stop..turn the interface gain down a little bit, and start again.
It's the only way to get really familiar with your setup and the differences that subtle changes make.
Until you're comfortable with all the above I'd strongly recommend forgetting about back mics, or two mics, or any additional effects or processes.
I still feel there was some fundamental problem at the start - Not just preference...a fault.
That may have been solved by now, I'm not sure.
My gut says that either one of OPs tracks was a sum (at the desk) two signals of opposite polarity,
or that the incredibly weak recording out of the original two was the result of running the mic into line input.
I'm not totally convinced of the latter.
Either way, my advice would be in line with what a lot of the people here are saying.
1: For now, keep the setup as simple as possible.
2: Angle the guitar amplifier up so the driver is pointing at or near your head (be careful to protect your hearing, of course).
3: Dial in the controls on the amp so that you are happy with the sound in the room.
If you never achieve this ^^, come back and tell us...There's no point recording if that's the case.
4: Proceed with one mic on one driver with one XLR to XLR cable into one preamp.
My suggestion would be to pick a mic position and stick with it, for now anyway, and record.
Do several short takes, each time making an adjustment at the amp (or pedal if applicable).
More gain, less gain, more treble, less treble, etc
Note your changes as you go and listen carefully to the differences in the recordings as you go.
If you feel you're getting somewhere and it's working out then keep all the settings on the amp/pedal the same,
but repeat the process making only minor changes to the mic position.
Nearer the edge of the cone, nearer the centre, head-on, tilted 45 degrees, etc.
Once again, record, note changes, listen + repeat.
Throughout all of this make sure there are no processes or effects enabled in your recording software,
and make certain that your focusrite interface is not peaking/clipping when recording.
I believe it indicates with a green/red ring around the gain knob? If that's ever red stop..turn the interface gain down a little bit, and start again.
It's the only way to get really familiar with your setup and the differences that subtle changes make.
Until you're comfortable with all the above I'd strongly recommend forgetting about back mics, or two mics, or any additional effects or processes.