Buss Compression on the Master Fader...???

[themdla]

i have this question posted along with another thead i started about a different subject and figured this question may need it's own topic.

i have read a few articles over the years that said andy wallace and other engineers believe that it's easier to get tracks to "sit" well in mixes quickly with compression on the master buss. as well a friend on mine who is a successful engineer always uses outboard buss compression and convinced me to buy an outboard 2-channel compressor.

everytime i've tried to use it though i am constantly adjusting it not really knowing exactly what i'm trying to achieve with it. i assume based on my limited knowledge of compression that i'm trying to reduce the dynamics and peaks of the overall mix in order to push the loudness, in something that seems to me akin to mastering.

however i don't think this is proper usage and i guess my main question is....

do you use buss compression during mixing?

and

when using buss compression during mixing what are good starting settings/effects/techniques to work with traditionally?

(obviously this will differ based on the content and its initial recording levels, however i'm assuming ideal -18dbFS signals across the board).

 

[Lo-Fi Mike]

Yes

I do this about 99% of the time, but NEVER to get any loudness. I just want to get about 2db of compression, just to bring the track together a bit. In most rock music it hits 3 cause of the snare, and maybe a constant 1-1/2.
It all depends on the song. Set the attack and release according to how the song moves.

 

[themdla]

I do this about 99% of the time, but NEVER to get any loudness. I just want to get about 2db of compression, just to bring the track together a bit. In most rock music it hits 3 cause of the snare, and maybe a constant 1-1/2.
It all depends on the song. Set the attack and release according to how the song moves.

yeah that sounds like what i'm talking about... togetherness!!!

i'm not really looking to get loudness i just want the tracks to mix/sit well.

so when do you turn the compressor on? prior to mixing? or after a rough mix?

the reason i ask is when i've attempted to use compression i'm constantly adjusting it to maintain even compression (aka 2db) but i end up constantly pushing the gain reduction further while mixing the tracks.

is there an instrument or group of instruments that help you define what to set your threshold to?

and what ratio do you think is a good starting place?

 

[leaningpine]

Use the compression after mixing. I would start at 2:1 and go from there. As far as settings, just use your ear. Crank the threshold all the way up and lower it until the pumping goes away. Listen to the whole tune and make sure there's no pumping, you want the compressor to work but you don't want it noticeable.

If you're going to have your song mastered, I wouldn't compress anything, let the mastering engineer do it, but if you're just goofing around go ahead and compress. You might as well learn!

 

[Lo-Fi Mike]

Last Mix

On my last mix my setting were:

attack 3ms
release .1
ration 4:1
(my threshold goes from -15 to +15)
threshold 9.3
make up 1.0

these worked for my particular mix..may or may not work for yours.

I like to mix with the bus compressor already on, but the threshold will be a little more conservative..like maybe 12.5...Then I'll grab a bit more if i need it when I'm done mixing.


Just have to play around with it and use your ears more than anything.

 

[Massive Master]

Just to show what sort of contrast there may be --

Generally, I use some amount of buss compression. It's always decided at the 'rough' stage (usually within 10 minutes of starting) and it stays on during everything else. It's going to change decisions - Adding it later changes the mix.

But a typical setting for me might be along the lines of a 80-100ms attack, 4-8 second release, 1.25:1 ratio and whatever threshold I need to get whatever amount of gain reduction I need (1-2dB at the most typically).

Granted - the mix is going to decide the settings to some extent. Sometimes I use faster A&R, but not much faster. Sometimes a higher ratio, but not much higher.

 

[witzendoz]

I usually mix in the analog domain, Console, outboard gear, etc. I nearly always have a stereo bus compressor inserted, the settings I use are pretty mild. About 2:1 or 2.5:1 and with a soft knee (auto) setting and the signal hardly reducing, 1 to 3 db during the peaks. It does seem to tighten everything up

The other trick is that I set up a limiter after the compressor that usually does not do anything but sometimes there may be a hard hit (snare, drum roll or whole band) that just trips the limiter and stops the signal going over level. I like this for when you have everything sounding just like you want it and there is a 1 hit millisecond peak that ruins everything.

The trick I found when using bus inserts is to not do much in the way of compression, as thats what the mastering stage is for, but to just pull it all together. If you want to go further you can set up parallel bus compression but thats another story.

Cheers
Alan.

 

[themdla]

Just to show what sort of contrast there may be --

Generally, I use some amount of buss compression. It's always decided at the 'rough' stage (usually within 10 minutes of starting) and it stays on during everything else. It's going to change decisions - Adding it later changes the mix.

But a typical setting for me might be along the lines of a 80-100ms attack, 4-8 second release, 1.25:1 ratio and whatever threshold I need to get whatever amount of gain reduction I need (1-2dB at the most typically).

Granted - the mix is going to decide the settings to some extent. Sometimes I use faster A&R, but not much faster. Sometimes a higher ratio, but not much higher.

this is what i found when i played with my compressor also. especially in that it completely changes a mix once its on...

eq, levels, reverb/effects, everything but panning really haha

i guess the compressor is a good barometer of the level adjustments your making to a mix because whatever adjustments you make to the mix will really start to stand out above a certain RMS threshold setting. i'm thinking that goes equally with all adjustments listed above so the compressor keeps your mixing in check roughly ≥ to your threshold setting depending on the ratio...

in a way? or am i off base

 

[Bristol Posse]

I just started messing with this concept too.

I''m trying a variety of options to see if any give me the results I'm after, with outboard (RNC and ART PRO VLA) and plugin (SSL Mixbus comp) on the return from my summing mixer into the DAW

So far I'm only using setings of around 2:1 or so and am only getting a little reduction in gain (no more than 3db) but the big difference is if you mix through the bus compressor (as John mentioned) and not just stick a compressor in the chain after the mix is done. I'm finding that the mixes have more life to them and stick together better.

I believe that this is because the various track now have an effect on one another. They are not just sitting out there in there own little world, changes in dynamics in one track will effect the compressor processing on the whole mix. I think this is where that idea of "Glueing" the mix together comes form, alll the instruments now effect each other.

This is not a loudness thing (for me anyway)

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I guess I'm the odd man out here in that I almost never do anything to the master bus during mixing - I even leave the faders at unity. I much prefer to hear and mix the mix as is and save any "tightening" or anything else to the 2mix for after the mix is done. But that's just me, I guess.

G.

 

[NYMorningstar]

I guess I'm the odd man out here in that I almost never do anything to the master bus during mixing - I even leave the faders at unity. I much prefer to hear and mix the mix as is and save any "tightening" or anything else to the 2mix for after the mix is done. But that's just me, I guess.

G.

That pretty much what I do too. I might use a compressor on a group channel to control transients for drums or vocalists that can't work a mic correctly but that's about it.

 

[miroslav]

I never use stereo mix buss compression.
I've tried adding it after the fact...after I have my mix done, but it would always skew the mix even in smaller doses. I guess one way to employ it is to run it from the gitgo and mix WITH the compression engaged...but, that would require having some sort of preset in mind before the mix is even constructed....?

Anyway...I prefer to compress individual tracks as needed (many really DON'T need any compression), and get my balance that way. I'll point out that I mix OTB from the DAW, so all of that is done with analog/outboard gear.

One thing I do to get some cohesion with the mix is to send the stereo output to a 1/4" 2-track/half-track...and then take the PB head output right back into the DAW and capture that as my final, digital stereo mix.
To that stereo file I will then apply any minute "mastering" phase adjustments that are needed.

 

[kcearl]

i would have thought if many individual tracks are compressed, then you also have a bus compressor, and one at the mastering stage, or even a multiband, and a limiter it would all be too much for the tracks dynamics??

 

[miroslav]

A lot of engineers prefer doing several levels of light compression on more individual elements/stages rather than trying to do a single stereo mix compression stage that retroactively fixes stuff that should have been done at earlier stages.

I don't really do/use a lot of compression or at multiple stages (or use extreme compression).
During tracking I may apply a very light amount on some stuff...then during mixing I'll focus on those things that need additional individual compression...like the drum OH stereo pair, maybe bass guitar and some of the rhythm guitars...but rarely leads and vocals, as I prefer to adjust them manually while in the DAW, trimming only the occasional peaks as needed.
It's only certain elements that will create huge spikes in the waveform...so no need to squash broadband.
But it's tedious BS doing it manually per peak!

 

[kcearl]

A lot of engineers prefer doing several levels of light compression on more individual elements/stages rather than trying to do a single stereo mix compression stage that retroactively fixes stuff that should have been done at earlier stages.

I don't really do/use a lot of compression or at multiple stages (or use extreme compression).
During tracking I may apply a very light amount on some stuff...then during mixing I'll focus on those things that need additional individual compression...like the drum OH stereo pair, maybe bass guitar and some of the rhythm guitars...but rarely leads and vocals, as I prefer to adjust them manually while in the DAW, trimming only the occasional peaks as needed.
It's only certain elements that will create huge spikes in the waveform...so no need to squash broadband.
But it's tedious BS doing it manually per peak!

I dont use it too much myself but then i dont suppose im trying to squeeze the last bit of volume out...interesting that so many use it so lightly on the bus though....must give it a try sometime

 

[miroslav]

Yeah...I'm not going for loudness...it's more about just taming things a bit.

When I finally have my stereo mix back in the DAW and I proceed to my "mastering" stage...at that point I address the overall loudness, but I keep that on the mild side too rather than slamming things hard.

My stuff doesn't jump out and smack you in the face at the same levels as a lot of today's mixes do...but a touch of the volume knob on your stereo system fixes that.
I found that too much squash really screws up the tonal balance as a byproduct...not to mention the dynamics.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Can someone explain to me the logic of applying bus compression *while mixing*? This is something that a lot of people apparently do, but just plain never made any sense to me, for many reasons:

1. Why the assumption that the mix will need any compression at all? Better to wait until the mix is done before I make any decisions as to what to do to the mixdown.

2. One is creating a mix while listening to it altered. That's tantamount to messing with your monitoring chain. I find it much preferable to listen to the raw mix so I can actually hear what I'm doing.

3. If one is sending their mix to mastering, wouldn't it be better to not apply any bus compression at all before sending it off? And if one is self-mastering, then refer back to #1.

4. Multiply #1 thru #3 by a difficulty factor of 3 if you're going to be doing a demo disc, EP or album where each song needs to be part of a cohesive whole.

G.

 

[Farview]

1. Why the assumption that the mix will need any compression at all? Better to wait until the mix is done before I make any decisions as to what to do to the mixdown.

The buss compression becomes part of the mix, like compressing the drum buss or anything else you do.

2. One is creating a mix while listening to it altered. That's tantamount to messing with your monitoring chain. I find it much preferable to listen to the raw mix so I can actually hear what I'm doing.

As long as you render the track with the compressor on, you aren't listening to it altered. You are listening to it the way it will be heard. Refer to #1.

3. If one is sending their mix to mastering, wouldn't it be better to not apply any bus compression at all before sending it off?

If buss compression is part of the sound of your mix. You have to give it to the mastering engineer that way.

4. Multiply #1 thru #3 by a difficulty factor of 3 if you're going to be doing a demo disc, EP or album where each song needs to be part of a cohesive whole.

G.

If you are producing the whole thing and you are using the same mix philosophy on all the tunes, it will all just work out. If it's a compilation CD, cohesiveness is out the window anyway.

With all that said, I almost never use buss compression. But that's probably becasue I use so much compression on individual tracks and sub groups.

 

[themdla]

The buss compression becomes part of the mix, like compressing the drum buss or anything else you do.

As long as you render the track with the compressor on, you aren't listening to it altered. You are listening to it the way it will be heard. Refer to #1.

If buss compression is part of the sound of your mix. You have to give it to the mastering engineer that way.

If you are producing the whole thing and you are using the same mix philosophy on all the tunes, it will all just work out. If it's a compilation CD, cohesiveness is out the window anyway.

With all that said, I almost never use buss compression. But that's probably becasue I use so much compression on individual tracks and sub groups.

what kind of material are you using "so much" compression on?

live/miked instuments? samples and soft synths?

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

The buss compression becomes part of the mix, like compressing the drum buss or anything else you do.

I appreciate the replies, Jay, and I do understand the answers. Or maybe I don't, because for me they really just beg the question further. For when the compression becomes part of the mix, one is still not hearing how the mix actually sounds *before* it's compressed, and one is making the blind assumption that the mix actually wants the compression.

I guess I just look at it like this; "the mix" is everything that happens before it hits the stereo bus. If I were to want to compress the whole thing, I'd have to wait until the mix were done to make that decision. At that point it's called "mastering" .

But I also recognize that there are a lot of successful engineers that do frick with the master bus during mixing - including some of my partners at the studio, so I'm not saying it's wrong. I just don't personally understand it.

G.