Buss Compression on the Master Fader...???

Yeah...I also prefer mixing the "raw" tracks....
...though mixing WITH a master bus compressor in the chain is sorta' like tracking a guitar WITH all the FX pedals already engaged or tracking a vocal with an EQ & limiter in the chain (like so many "vocal strips" provide these days).

It's not how I like to work, but if someone is willing to commit to "that sound" and never look back...it's another approach I guess. *shrug*
 
Can someone explain to me the logic of applying bus compression *while mixing*? This is something that a lot of people apparently do, but just plain never made any sense to me, for many reasons:

1. Why the assumption that the mix will need any compression at all? Better to wait until the mix is done before I make any decisions as to what to do to the mixdown.

2. One is creating a mix while listening to it altered. That's tantamount to messing with your monitoring chain. I find it much preferable to listen to the raw mix so I can actually hear what I'm doing.

G.

i'm guessing based on the limited knowledge i have of bus compression that...

1. it may not need compression but the levels of compression created by the engineers who use it is minimal (2 to 3db)

2. i was thinking about this last night and please someone correct me if i'm wrong....

whatever your threshold is set to is now your reference point of a db level ceiling pre compression. once that threshold is crossed the compressor does it's thing and creates gain reduction based on your parameters.

so if i'm pulling up a bass track and i hit the threshold i know based on the amount of gain reduction (1-3db) what the db level of the bass is.

now if i start to pull up a guitar track and mix it with the bass once the guitar starts to reach the threshold it should be roughly the same db level as the bass. if i push it a bit further and get gain reduction (1-3db) then both tracks (provided the dynamics are similar) should "glue" together nicely.

to go a step further, if i push the guitar past the threshold excessively (4-8db in gain reduction) then the effect of the compressor is more pronunced and the gain reduction meter gives me a good visual representation.

the same can be said for all instruments in a mix with master buss compression. once the threshold is passed it has a finite range (1-3db) in which to sit with everything else. your threshold and gain reduction become your guide for signal level balancing.

the same general concept i think applies to effects and eq as well. the compressor tells you when your out of balance by emphasizing whatever crosses the threshold.

idk maybe this is the right way to think of it but i'm not 100% because i'm a noob!
 
and all that is also dependant on your ears as well of course because some sounds will benefit from being pushed further into copression than others but within a limit. if mixed a certain way some tracks may not even even hit the threshold unless they sound better that way.
 
this doesn't really talk about it much but i'm still looking for the other article i read where he goes into more detail. basically from what i've read you can get good mixes faster with buss compression on from the begining.

but you can still get good mixes without any compression it just takes longer and requires more experience.

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_andy_wallace/

http://www.faderwear.com/guides/extrememasterbus/compression.shtml

http://www.ehow.com/how_5090362_use-mix-bus-compression.html
 
i'm guessing based on the limited knowledge i have of bus compression that...

1. it may not need compression but the levels of compression created by the engineers who use it is minimal (2 to 3db)
My question to that would be that if it does not need the compression, then why compress it?
2. i was thinking about this last night and please someone correct me if i'm wrong....

whatever your threshold is set to is now your reference point of a db level ceiling pre compression. once that threshold is crossed the compressor does it's thing and creates gain reduction based on your parameters.
Correct.
so if i'm pulling up a bass track and i hit the threshold i know based on the amount of gain reduction (1-3db) what the db level of the bass is.
Well, kind of. The resulting level of the bass peaks that exceed the threshold are dependent upon their original pre-compressed amplitude. You can't just automatically assume that everything above the threshold will be reduced by x number of dB. If you have, say, a 2:1 compression ratio set to a threshold of -10dBFS, a peak of -5dBFS will be compressed to -7.5dBFS, a reduction of 2.5dB. But a peak of -1dBFS will be compressed to -5.5dBFS, a reduction of -4..5dB.
now if i start to pull up a guitar track and mix it with the bass once the guitar starts to reach the threshold it should be roughly the same db level as the bass. if i push it a bit further and get gain reduction (1-3db) then both tracks (provided the dynamics are similar) should "glue" together nicely.
That does indeed assume that the dynamics will be similar. It also assumes that you actually want both tracks at roughly the same amplitude and dynamic profile. In fact, it's not often that either of those will be the case.

G.
 
but you can still get good mixes without any compression it just takes longer and requires more experience.
I don't buy it. I (and many folks I know) can mix a 20-track song just great within in an hour without corrupting the master bus. And as far as experience, it all depends on which method one cuts their teeth upon. If one doesn't have the experience, they can't make a good mix fast either way.

G.
 
In response to Glen's why mix bus compress at all: My personal finding so far with the limited amount of trial and error I've been doing on some material I'm mixing at the moment is:

the mixes feel more alive to me. The dynamics of one instrument affects the output of the others (minimally with the small gain reduction low ratios and fairly slow attack). I can't get this feel of dynamic track interaction as effectively (personally speaking, not saying it is not possible at all) with just fader riding through the mix. (maybe that's why SSL put a 2 bus compressor right in the middle of their desks?)

As I mentioned in an earlier post you have to mix through the compressor basically from the start of the mix or at least once the rhythm section is where you want it, slapping it on at the end will change the entire mix after the fact and not give the same result.

I wouldn't say that for me it makes mixing easier or come together faster but I am starting to find now I am getting the hang of it a bit that when they do come together they come together better IMO and, as above, feel a little more living and breathing than without a mix bus compressor because of how everything is interacting.

Of course this is just my way and my impression and since I've only been playing at this recording mixing game for under 2 years as a hobby and with Mix bus compression for a couple of weeks is perhaps not a heavy hitting opinion anyway

YMMV
 
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To expand a little from Glen's post..
...whatever your threshold is set to is now your reference point of a db level ceiling pre compression. once that threshold is crossed the compressor does it's thing and creates gain reduction based on your parameters.

so if i'm pulling up a bass track and i hit the threshold i know based on the amount of gain reduction (1-3db) what the db level of the bass is.

Ok so far.

now if i start to pull up a guitar track and mix it with the bass once the guitar starts to reach the threshold it should be roughly the same db level as the bass. if i push it a bit further and get gain reduction (1-3db) then both tracks (provided the dynamics are similar) should "glue" together nicely.
You missed a few fctors; The gain reduction componant is always the mix of the sum of all the instruments plus the (now) highest elements -which is a given, but there is also the attack time vs the instruments in question.
Think about that one for a sec. :D

I love this topic. More time later... gota go. :)
 
When you guys talk about putting commpression on your mixes, is this a separate process from putting a limiter on the "final, final" mix? Or is this compression you apply creating that "final, final" product?
 
Well, I'm not going to push the subject. It just seems to me, based upon the references I've read so far, that bus compression is for those who don't like fader jockying or who are slow at it. And that's fine, I won't dispute or knock that.

I LIVE for fader jockying; for me that's the heart and soul of mixing; if one doesn't dynamically mix the tracks, the mix may sound "big", but it also tends to sound flat. I don't dig flat mixes, no matter how "big" they are. It's probably no surprise that I'm not a huge Andy Wallace fan either, for that very reason.

So I guess a lot of it boils down to a matter of taste, also. Which means that at that point I should just stop talking, because there's no point in arguing matters of taste.

G.
 
When you guys talk about putting commpression on your mixes, is this a separate process from putting a limiter on the "final, final" mix? Or is this compression you apply creating that "final, final" product?

i'm talking about using it from the start of a mix after tracking for extra cohesion. i'm not talking about using it to increase level or for mastering.

having limited mixing experience i am only curious what everyone elses' experiences are. i've been told for years by different people (who's mixes i am fond of) that they use master buss compression from the start.

not know how the traditional use of master buss compression is performed i was hoping to hear from those who have used it sucessfully :D

and those who don't use it as well for comparison.
 
basically from what i've read you can get good mixes faster with buss compression on from the begining.

but you can still get good mixes without any compression it just takes longer and requires more experience.
I would argue the opposite -- Buss compression is affecting the entire mix. It's not going to make the mixing process faster and if you don't have a solid handle on compression techniques (along with a compressor that's actually up to the task) you shouldn't be using it anyway. Amazingly simple to completely screw up an otherwise perfectly decent mix.
 
i'm talking about using it from the start of a mix after tracking for extra cohesion.

I understand that. It's still on the 2 bus, though, so whether you have it on during the mix process or slap it on after, it's still part of the final mix.

So, my question was whether it's being used as a final "mastering compression", or if it's just considered part of the mix, which means there might be more compression (limiting) added in the mastering stage. And you answered that. :cool:

It wasn't clear to me, until your last post, if people were talking about mxing with their final "mastering" limiter on the 2 bus, or whether it was just a pre-mastering tool they used.
 
Well, I'm not going to push the subject. It just seems to me, based upon the references I've read so far, that bus compression is for those who don't like fader jockying or who are slow at it. And that's fine, I won't dispute or knock that.

I LIVE for fader jockying; for me that's the heart and soul of mixing; if one doesn't dynamically mix the tracks, the mix may sound "big", but it also tends to sound flat. I don't dig flat mixes, no matter how "big" they are. It's probably no surprise that I'm not a huge Andy Wallace fan either, for that very reason.

So I guess a lot of it boils down to a matter of taste, also. Which means that at that point I should just stop talking, because there's no point in arguing matters of taste.

G.

yeah i think your right glen. this is probably mostly a matter of taste and experience. different strokes for different folks :)

i've never had actual faders so i would know how to do what you do :D

having always mixed in the box i would try to use automation to do what you are describing. which makes me think that...

riding faders and mix compression may achieve similar results as both are ways of dynamically reducing voulme levels. on is general and automated (compression) the other is granular and dynamic (riding).

i'm thinking based on a few other comments....

if you control wild peaks and maintain dynamics with light compression as an insert on a track then the track outputs will be fairly consistent (obviously this is a bit of an ideal) w/ good/wanted dynamics preserved.

then these lightly pre compressed tracks sans peaks run into a buss compressor and are further compressed together each one affecting the other as levels are changed. however you don;t want much compression on the master buss unless you are going for a specific effect.

personally i like everything andy wallace has mixed but then again my favorite bands are:

NIN, Radiohead, Portishead, Jeff Buckley!, The Mars Volta, David Bowie, Elbow, Alice In Chains, Kings of Leon, The Toadies, The Doves, The Police, Soundgarden, Led Zepplin, Rolling Stones, Depeche Mode, A Perfect Circle, Tool, Deftones, The Prodigy, Early RHCP, Rage Against the Machine, Incubus, Pantera, Gorillaz, Black Sabbath, Muse, Stone Temple Pilots, Spoon, The Temptations, The White Stripes, The Commodores, Al Green, Jimi Hendrix, Pink Floyd, etc...
 
I would argue the opposite -- Buss compression is affecting the entire mix. It's not going to make the mixing process faster and if you don't have a solid handle on compression techniques (along with a compressor that's actually up to the task) you shouldn't be using it anyway. Amazingly simple to completely screw up an otherwise perfectly decent mix.

you are absoultely right :) i am speaking in a vacuum of ideal situations...

proper usage, proper gear, proper signal level, and dynamics.

in the hands of a bone head like me... just enough to be dangerous most likely.

but the results from the guys i like who use it right are intriguing.

the final question of everyone who does use is...

do i understand it's basic usage in a mix?

(provided you like that sort of thing)
 
what kind of material are you using "so much" compression on?

live/miked instuments? samples and soft synths?
Live miked instruments. I mostly do hard rock and metal.

I would also like to point out that I personally don't use compression to tame dynamics as much as I use it for the sound of the compression. Obviously the dynamics get changed in the process, but I'm going for the sound of the compression. If it was just a matter of the dynamics being too wide, I would just automate.

In fact, I do automate certain things so that they hit the compressor consistantly.

I'm not sure I mentioned it before, but I generally don't use buss compression on my mixes. I don't have a problem with doing so, it just doesn't seem necessary for what I do.
 
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I always mix thru a buss comp. (well, almost always) Seen several fairly well known engineers mix, they ALL mix thru buss compressors. It's why SSL became so ubiquitous.....
 
i've never had actual faders so i would know how to do what you do :D

having always mixed in the box i would try to use automation to do what you are describing.
Well, I should explain myself better, probably; when mixing ITB (which is most of what I do these days also), I consider the gain automation track as being "the fader", and a typical gain automation track for me winds up looking like a Six Flags roller coaster :p. Well, OK, maybe that's a wee bit of an exaggeration ;), but the point is that for my particular style of mixing, I depend greatly upon gain automation, and if I'm producing, I prefer to add a lot of "texture" to the mix through selective automation curves.

It's funny, because there is this perception that this is a "slow" way of doing things. I was, coincidently enough, almost accused of that by my producer just about a week ago or so, but only because the producer was used to working with an engineer that only rarely used automation. But once he saw me do what he wanted using automation just as fast as the method his other guy used, it seemed to shut him up pretty quickly ;).
which makes me think that...

riding faders and mix compression may achieve similar results as both are ways of dynamically reducing voulme levels. on is general and automated (compression) the other is granular and dynamic (riding).
That's only a small part of it. Yes, automation can be used to keep dynamic levels even, and yes that is part of what I sometimes use it for. But for me it goes way beyond that. I don't use automation to keep tracks flat so much as I use it to support, reinforce or even customize the arrangement itself.

A good arrangement doesn't just expect all the instruments to be at the same relative volume to each other at all times. And when you add the human performance element where this fill or that lick may make this or that instrument provide a naturally great-sounding hook in this or that measure, you have (to my sensibilities) a mix that just begs for more careful, textured mixing than just a big, flat sound with everything glued together in a static relationship.
personally i like everything andy wallace has mixed but then again my favorite bands are:

NIN, Radiohead, Portishead, Jeff Buckley!, The Mars Volta, David Bowie, Elbow, Alice In Chains, Kings of Leon, The Toadies, The Doves, The Police, Soundgarden, Led Zepplin, Rolling Stones, Depeche Mode, A Perfect Circle, Tool, Deftones, The Prodigy, Early RHCP, Rage Against the Machine, Incubus, Pantera, Gorillaz, Black Sabbath, Muse, Stone Temple Pilots, Spoon, The Temptations, The White Stripes, The Commodores, Al Green, Jimi Hendrix, Pink Floyd, etc...
I like many of those acts also, but it's important to separate the *content* from the *production*. It's also important to compare the albums by an act that were engineered or produced by one guy vs. the same act engineered or produced by another.

As far as the older stuff - Commodores, Al Green, etc., I could be wrong, but I believe those were before Wallace got heavily into the whole compression thing.

I like Jeff Buckley, but I personally think that Wallace approached that album wrong (again to my tastes). It's waaaaay too hot and pushed and artificial sounding for that kind of music. For me that was a typical post-70s Wallace production; too in-your-face.

I'm not much into the metallic/heaver bands like Slayer, Pantera, etc.. But it's those metallic bands that benefit the most from the Andy Wallace approach of the last 25 years I think. So maybe those of you that are into recording that stuff, buss compression may make more sense. But for other stuff, it starts sounding awfully "loudness wars" to me.

IMHO, YMMV, HDMI, 1080P, etc.

G.
 
I understand that. It's still on the 2 bus, though, so whether you have it on during the mix process or slap it on after, it's still part of the final mix.

So, my question was whether it's being used as a final "mastering compression", or if it's just considered part of the mix, which means there might be more compression (limiting) added in the mastering stage. And you answered that. :cool:

It wasn't clear to me, until your last post, if people were talking about mxing with their final "mastering" limiter on the 2 bus, or whether it was just a pre-mastering tool they used.

Everyone I've seen using a 2 bus compressor in the mix (and so the way I am also trying to use it) is as a part of the mix process not a mastering tool or a loudness tool. The 2 bus compressor goes on the 2 bus at the start or very near the start of the mix process. As a result all of the mix decisions are made based on the effect that the compressor is having on the whole mix and the mix down is printed with the two bus compressor in effect. If you slap a compressor on the 2 bus at the end of the process it's not the same becuase you really aren't making your mix decisions based on how the compression is effecting the mix your just doing some kind of limitng at the end of the game which could competely kill the mix you just made

It's usually pretty light, subtle compression and is really not at all about controlling dynamics or increasing the volume but about adding some "Glue" or "sheen" to the mix.

Mastering and song volume decisions are still process for another day
 
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